Can a TRUE believer turn away from the faith?

[DHK]

HP: What does it mean to repent DHK? Can one be repentant and still continue in their same old sins in the same old way? What is the evidence that one has repented? Was John the Baptist beside himself when he required ‘fruit’ of repentance before he would baptize them?

Did John the Baptist baptize an individual once, or was he baptized as many times as he sinned?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I asked about the meaning of repentance. You will have to ask John the Baptist when you meet him. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

I asked about the meaning of repentance. You will have to ask John the Baptist when you meet him. :thumbsup:

You are confused. I told you about repentance in a previous post. Go back and read it. In the last post you asked about John the Baptist. You brought him into the conversation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

You are confused. I told you about repentance in a previous post. Go back and read it. In the last post you asked about John the Baptist. You brought him into the conversation.

HP: You have not defined the word 'repentance' once that I can tell. You use the word but then telll us that you by necessity have to, and all do, continue the very thing you should have repented for, case in point 'lying' for one, which according to Scripture is a sin that will keep any that commit such out of heaven.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[ccrobinson]

Hogwash. How is sin (supposed to be the old manner in which we lived) 'gone' if you are CONTINUING TO SIN AS WE ARE TOLD ALMOST DAILY ON THIS LIST, THAT WE ALL SIN AND ALL ARE CONTINUALLY FOUND TO BE LIARS????

Here's what HP calls hogwash.

2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Here's plain Scripture, and HP calls it hogwash.

Then he follows it up by yelling at us by typing in All Caps.

HP, I am sort of glad you did this, because now I will happily ignore everything you have to say. Anybody who calls plain Scripture hogwash has no business being listened to in regards to Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: What does it mean to repent DHK? Can one be repentant and still continue in their same old sins in the same old way? What is the evidence that one has repented? Was John the Baptist beside himself when he required ‘fruit’ of repentance before he would baptize them?

Repent means a change of mind. Specifically regarding sin.

It does not mean one will never sin again.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

CCRobinsin: HP, I am sort of glad you did this, because now I will happily ignore everything you have to say. Anybody who calls plain Scripture hogwash has no business being listened to in regards to Scripture.

HP: I never stated or insinuated that the Scripture was hogwash. What is hogwash is the notion that old things are passed away but so many claim we just keep right on sinning. If old things have passed away, we should be walking in newness of life in this present world. Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This old notion of a sinning religion is what is hogwash CC. The contradiction on every hand that the old has passed away but our lives remain the same old sinners they were before is what is hogwash CC.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Repent means a change of mind. Specifically regarding sin.

It does not mean one will never sin again.

HP: I fully agree. Just the same if there is not a clear indication that one has renounced and forsaken their sins, it is foolishness to say one has repented of them. Where sin was the ordinary course of intents in the old life, it should at the least be the unusual or rare occurrence, and not ones daily ‘common practice?’ Even then one would need to seek God in renewed repentance for them to be place under the blood.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: I fully agree. Just the same if there is not a clear indication that one has renounced and forsaken their sins, it is foolishness to say one has repented of them. Where sin was the ordinary course of intents in the old life, it should at the least be the unusual or rare occurrence, and not ones daily ‘common practice?’ Even then one would need to seek God in renewed repentance for them to be place under the blood.

HP, are you saved? Not will you be saved, but are you saved?

 

[annsni]

HP: I never stated or insinuated that the Scripture was hogwash. What is hogwash is the notion that old things are passed away but so many claim we just keep right on sinning. If old things have passed away, we should be walking in newness of life in this present world. Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
1Th 5:23 ¶ And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

This old notion of a sinning religion is what is hogwash CC. The contradiction on every hand that the old has passed away but our lives remain the same old sinners they were before is what is hogwash CC.

Who said that our lives remain the same old sinners? I certainly didn't. Once we become saved, sanctification is the new norm. We won't become sinless but we certainly are convicted of our sin (that doesn't happen when we're dead in sin) and we grow to be more and more like Christ.

 

[DHK]

HP: I fully agree. Just the same if there is not a clear indication that one has renounced and forsaken their sins, it is foolishness to say one has repented of them. Where sin was the ordinary course of intents in the old life, it should at the least be the unusual or rare occurrence, and not ones daily ‘common practice?’ Even then one would need to seek God in renewed repentance for them to be place under the blood.

As I said in a previous quote, "It is impossible to repent of all one's sins." The Bible does not teach that, and that is not what repentance it. In reference to repentance, the word means a change of mind. It is a change of mind toward God. When one repents he changes his attitude or his mind toward his old sinful way of life and repents toward God; that is changes his attitude toward God--willing to submit to His authority. That is what repentance is. It does not mean he will never sin again.

Repentance is the flip side of faith. The demons believe but there is no change toward God. When one has faith in God their lives change. Their faith in the sacrifice of Christ and Christ now as Lord must produce change. If now I realize that Christ is the Lord and master of my life, how can that not produce change? Repentance, as taught in the Bible, is always toward God.

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

It is a change of mind toward God. It happens once in a person's lifetime. It happens the same time he puts his faith in Jesus Christ. Notice the above verse: "faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Both events happen at the same time. Salvation is by faith.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--We are justified by faith. It happens once and only once. God does not justify a person over and over again. At that one time he gives eternal which is never taken away. If it could be taken away eternal would not be eternal and Christ would be a liar. How tenuous and even blasphemous the person's position is that believes eternal life can be taken away. It shows a lack of understanding in the doctrine of salvation.

 

[Andre]

Here is what I will be judged on:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus” expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “for”s here – they serve the same function here as the word “because”:

For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?” Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

So that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins”.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.

 

[Andre]

The verse that speaks to me so completely on the security of the life of a believer is 2 Corinthians 1:20-22 "For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

I see your point, but given several teachings which suggest that people can fall away (e.g. in Romans 11 and Hebrews 6), I think we need to understand Paul as saying something like this: The person who places faith in Jesus is given the Spirit, and the Spirit will most certainly produce the good works that result in ultimate salvation (Romans 2) unless, of course, the believer turns his back on Jesus and the Spirit and walks away.

No doubt some will see me as adding an unstated qualification. However, we need to remember if every statement Paul made was fully qualified and nuances with, the Bible would be 10,000 pages long.

We need to look at the big picture, and I suggest that the assurance of the believer lies in the fact that it is the Spirit who "takes over" in the life of the faithful Christian, but, sadly, it is always possible to reject that Spririt and fall away.

 

[DHK]

Romans 8 is another reason to believe that Paul means what he says in Romans 2 – that eternal life is granted based on the good works manifested in the life of the believer.

In Romans 8, Paul writes this:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Why is there no condemnation, that is why can those “in Christ Jesus” expect eternal life? Paul goes on immediately to tell us why. Note all the “for”s here – they serve the same function here as the word “because”:

For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Why is there no condemnation?” Because (for) we have been set free from slavery to sin so that……what?

So that we can walk according to the Spirit – do good works as the Spirit enables us.

That is why there is no condemnation – we are enabled to walk according to the Spirit. Notice that Paul did not say “there is no condemnation because you have mentally assented to the proposition that Jesus is Lord and has died for your sins”.

The following verses are not conditions. They are qualifiers.
For example the entire verse in the KJV reads this way:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
"Who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
That phrase, misunderstood by many, is not a condition. It qualifies the walk of the believer. That means that the one who is saved, the one to whom there is no condemnation will walk after the Spirit and not according to the flesh. The Greek gives a definite sense that the phrase qualifies the first part of the verse; not puts it as a condition.

The same is true with the verses you quoted. Paul is demonstrating what the believer's life is like compared to the unbeliever's life.
Read on:

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
--This is not the life of a believer. '

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
--This is not the life of a believer.

These verses strengthen the case for eternal security, not weaken it.

What Paul says here is precisely what we need to know to make sense of what he has said in Romans 2, where he said, clearly, that eternal life goes to those who do good.

That is not what he was saying. He was speaking to the Jews in general. The Jews who did not do good were those who did not believe. Doing good was believing by faith.

 

[Andre]

In reference to repentance, the word means a change of mind. It is a change of mind toward God. When one repents he changes his attitude or his mind toward his old sinful way of life and repents toward God; that is changes his attitude toward God--willing to submit to His authority. That is what repentance is. It does not mean he will never sin again.

I agree with this.

 

[Andre]

The following verses are not conditions. They are qualifiers.
For example the entire verse in the KJV reads this way:

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
"Who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
That phrase, misunderstood by many, is not a condition. It qualifies the walk of the believer. That means that the one who is saved, the one to whom there is no condemnation will walk after the Spirit and not according to the flesh. The Greek gives a definite sense that the phrase qualifies the first part of the verse; not puts it as a condition.

I do not think this analysis is correct. Paul tells us that there is no condemnation and then follows this statement with the reasons why there is no condemnation. The Greek word "gar" is rendered as "for" and has the same sense as the word "because":

Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus. 2For (D)the law of the Spirit of life in (E)Christ Jesus (F)has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For (G)what the Law could not do, (H)weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in (I)the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the (J)requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who (K)do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Now, to be fair, to this point these statements could indeed be seen as a "qualification". But when we get this statement, it is clear that our not being condemned is contingent on the way we actually live:

for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

This statement cannot be read as mere "qualification" - it is a clear an unambiguous statement that allowing the Spirit to shape how you live leads to, yes, life.

 

[Andre]

That is not what he was saying. He was speaking to the Jews in general. The Jews who did not do good were those who did not believe. Doing good was believing by faith.

The statements in Romans 2 are not directed to Jews alone, and doing good is "doing good", not believing in the truth of a certain proposition. This text from Romans 2 poses a great challenge to those who deny ultimate justification by good works, since it is crystal clear that this is precisely what Paul is asserting here:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good:

 

[annsni]

I see your point, but given several teachings which suggest that people can fall away (e.g. in Romans 11 and Hebrews 6), I think we need to understand Paul as saying something like this: The person who places faith in Jesus is given the Spirit, and the Spirit will most certainly produce the good works that result in ultimate salvation (Romans 2) unless, of course, the believer turns his back on Jesus and the Spirit and walks away.

No doubt some will see me as adding an unstated qualification. However, we need to remember if every statement Paul made was fully qualified and nuances with, the Bible would be 10,000 pages long.

We need to look at the big picture, and I suggest that the assurance of the believer lies in the fact that it is the Spirit who "takes over" in the life of the faithful Christian, but, sadly, it is always possible to reject that Spririt and fall away.

But the thing to me is that we do not provide the guarantee. God does. God doesn't turn His back on His promise, does He? I've read through the Scriptures and I see the issue very clearly in there - a new creation does not become an old creation.

 

[Andre]

Romans 2 poses great challenge for many in the reformed tradition. It includes the first treatment of justification in the book and, to the surprise and consternation of many, Paul affirms, yes, justification by good works:

you are storing up wrath for yourself (J)in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6(K)who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by (L)perseverance in doing good seek for (M)glory and honor and (N)immortality, (O)eternal life; 8but to those who are (P)selfishly ambitious and (Q)do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be (R)tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew (S)first and also of the Greek, 10but (T)glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek. 11For (V)there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned (W)without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is (X)not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

What are we to do with this passage? Ignore it? Some do. Claim it is a description of a hypothetical path to justification? Many do, improperly reading Romans 3 and its rejection of justification by “works” as proving that Paul is speaking hypothetically in chapter 2 when he claims that good works matter in respect to ultimate justification. Others will try to morph the many references to “doing good” into allusions to “having faith” – an odd and awkward exegetical move.

The better alternative is to take Paul at his word – we are indeed ultimately justified by the content of the works that our lives manifest. How can we square this with Paul’s many statement about being “justified by faith”?

Paul himself gives us the answer in Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus………
……..
13for (Y)if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are (Z)putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul’s argument is this: the Christian who demonstrates faith alone will indeed be ultimately justified precisely because he will be given the Spirit, and the Spirit, not the man’s moral self-effort, will be engine that transforms the man into the kind of person who will most assuredly pass the Romans 2 “good works” judgement.

The point is that we can take Romans 2 seriously – without ignoring it or mangling it beyond recognition – and still integrate its teaching with a serious embracing of the doctrine of justification by faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: we certainly are convicted of our sin

HP: Ann, it is you that clearly implies that were are still the same old sinners were were. You deny we can live apart from sinning, and that it is impossible to live above sin, correct? Have you ever heard the following statement? Could this possibly be yours as well? ‘We sin everyday in thought word and deed.’

What import does being ‘convicted of sin’ have in the life of the believer as opposed to any ordinary sinner? Every sinner to convicted of sin to one degree or another, yet conviction is just a sign one is still in their sins. Either one is still in their sins or they have ceased from sin, which is it? If you tell me the old is passé away but you continue doing the old sins, how can you say they are passed away?

Again I am not trying to indicate that a believer under strong temptation cannot fall and sin, but it should be the unordinary, not a daily occurrence. Repentance involves a change of heart and a turning away from, not a mere acknowledgement that one has sinned or conviction that one has sinned. If we are continually doing the same old things how can one say repentance has taken place??? Speaking of millisecond Christianity. One millisecond we are obeying and in another we are doing the same old sins. Sounds more like a divided heart or an unstable one to me, not the life of a believer seeking to walk a holy life before God.

1Co 6:11 And such WERE (past tense) some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?