37818
Well-Known Member
It is my understanding that Hebrew word has the meaning of being a chaste young female.
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A Doctrine of Translation
- Thread starter John of Japan
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Someone like a Spurgeon, or a Paul. would preach Jesus and be used of and by God from Nas/Kjv/Esv etc!
That word can be that, or a Virgin chaste female, and the Holy Spirit Himself in the Greek NT told us what God viewed the word as really meaning!
Think they wanted to translate it as what a Jewish reader would see ikt as being, without trying to read and "force: NT theology into ot!
37818
Well-Known Member
Maybe.
About Rebekah:
The 1917 Jewish Publication Society, Genesis 24:43, "behold, I stand by the fountain of water; and let it come to pass, that the maiden that cometh forth to draw, to whom I shall say: Give me, I pray thee, a little water from thy pitcher to drink;"
JPS, Genesis 24:16, "And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her; and she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up." That Hebrew word needed qualification. The Hebrew translated "maiden," v.43, is the same word used in Isaiah 7:14.
JPS, Isaiah 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel "
Before we can translate a text, we must interpret the text so as to gain the apparent meaning intended by the original language version. And if our "interpretation" is agenda driven, i.e. consistent with Calvinism or Arminianism, our translation will differ from other translations into the same receptor language.
In James 2:5, if you believe individuals were chosen before creation, and the fallen have "total spiritual inability" then God could not have chosen those rich in faith and heirs because they love God. Nope, so we can fix this "problem" by inserting into the inspired text our man-made fix, so God has now chosen those "to be" rich in faith and heirs because they will love God.
And if you want to reinforce the doctrine of unconditional election for salvation, you change 2 Thessalonians 2:13 so that a noun (salvation) becomes a verb so rather than chosen by reason of faith in the truth, the text now reads we were saved by reason of faith in the truth.
Finding fault with English translations is like shooting fish in a barrel.
In James 2:5, if you believe individuals were chosen before creation, and the fallen have "total spiritual inability" then God could not have chosen those rich in faith and heirs because they love God. Nope, so we can fix this "problem" by inserting into the inspired text our man-made fix, so God has now chosen those "to be" rich in faith and heirs because they will love God.
And if you want to reinforce the doctrine of unconditional election for salvation, you change 2 Thessalonians 2:13 so that a noun (salvation) becomes a verb so rather than chosen by reason of faith in the truth, the text now reads we were saved by reason of faith in the truth.
Finding fault with English translations is like shooting fish in a barrel.
I've heard that. Technically, there is no single word "them," but it's in the verb, as 2nd person sing. (you) and 3rd pers. masc. plu. suffix (them).
Please note that I did this outline many years ago and have not updated it.
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I don't mean the translation, I mean the original language text. So in the NT for our Japanese translation, I chose Scrivener and stuck with it. This was according to our skopoi (translation goals) for the translation. For the OT I am going from the Masoretic text (of course, since that's all anyone uses).
So the reason people say that this passage does not refer to the preservation of "words" is that "words" in v. 6 is feminine, but the suffix "them" in the verb for "preserved" (נצר) is masculine. But normally there must be gender agreement of the pronoun (in the suffix) with the antecedent.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
why is this? if the wrong text is adopted, the the translation is also wrong! for example, John 1:18, if "Son" is adopted as the correct reading, then this is done on the basis of a faulty text, as the greater textual evidence is for the reaging "God". Not only so, but by adopting "Son", I believe that this text is robbed of a very clear testimony to the Deity of Jesus Christ, and the plurality of Persons in the Godhead. You cannot separate textual issues from the making of a good translation!
The typical textual critic is not gifted by God as a translator (it is a divine gifting), and the typical translator is not gifted to be a textual critic. They are separate gifts.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what do you mean "gifted by God"? there are many textual critics and translators/translations that are certainly not in any way "gifted by God"! I firmily believe that both go very much together, as there is no reason why the Lord cannot gift both to the same person?
As a point of interest, are there any known textual critics that are also known as translators (beyond merely serving on a translational committee like WH)? Or any known translators that are also known as textual critics? Just curious.
In my experience, it is one or the other. Seems like either profession/gifting is a very time sensitive task. In other words, if one is a committed textual critic, it is difficult to find time to be a translator too, and vice versa. I spend a lot of time on translation theory and translating; though I enjoy textual criticism, I don't see how I could find time to do well at it.
Part of my theology of translation is that language ability is the spiritual gift of "tongues," (meaning "languages" both in the Hebrew, the Greek, and in 1611 English) and translation is the spiritual gift of the "interpretation of tongues" (1 Cor. 12-14).
As for translators or textual critics that do not walk with the Lord, one can still be gifted by God in an area, and yet use that gift selfishly instead of for the Lord. For example, many who should be pastors or evangelists turn to selling real estate or something else.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
both are very important
Speaking a language known by another culture, but unknown to the speaker was a miraculous gift to authenticate the message, and as a sign and wonder gift, it ceased once the New Testament was written. Yes some people are gifted in language skills far above other people, but the idea only "specially gifted people" can engage in translation is fiction.
This is a bald assertion. Please prove it. In my experience (not just opinion), the idea that "anyone can do it" is a complete myth.
I believe I have far more experience in this area than you do. I've known some "wannabes" who should not ever be involved in translation. I have interviewed people who wanted to be involved in our Japanese translation who should not go near a Bible translation effort. On the other hand, I graded some beginning Greek papers last week, a translation assignment, and marveled at the work of one young lady who shows obvious translation ability. Not coincidentally, she is surrendered to be a missionary to India, where she should have ample opportunity to use her obvious gift of translation ability.
P. S. I did not say the gift I was speaking of was miraculous. The language gift in 1 Cor. 12-14 is not miraculous but providential. Please pay attention.
Once again JOJ shows just how "experienced" he is in thinking his views are better than the differing views of others.
Speaking in a language known to others from another culture, but unknown to the speaker is a miracle. And baptists hold that the modern day babbling is not speaking in another tongue but disinformation.
More experience does not make the less experienced banned from pointing out errors in translation. Skill in assessing the validity of translation choices can be learned.
Speaking a language known by another culture, but unknown to the speaker was a miraculous gift to authenticate the message, and as a sign and wonder gift, it ceased once the New Testament was written. Yes some people are gifted in language skills far above other people, but the idea only "specially gifted people" can engage in translation is fiction.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
could not agree with you more! we know first had the hardships involved in both language learning/use, and textual studies. There are too many who think it is an easy ride!
Forgive me. I'm willing to admit you are an experienced translator with sufficient knowledge to make these statement. (I have little patience with "wannabes.") I'm working on a D.Min. and I'm planning my dissertation to be on the formation of Bible translation efforts. So, I'm making a preliminary list of such efforts and their contact information. (I already have names from efforts in India, Mongolian, Nepal, Lithuania, the Tajiks, Farsi [one of my students on Bible translation in our seminary], etc.) Please help me out. I'll ask for some preliminary information here, and you can send me your real name by PM--and of course I'll give my name and contact information that way. So:
What is the target language for your effort?
What is your source language and source text?
What form does your effort take (single linguist, working as a consultant, supporting a committee of national translators, lead translator yourself, etc.)?
Thank you.
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