Spirit or Ghost?

Ben1445 said:

Jesus said this well before Paul went to the Gentiles.
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Paul brought Scripture with him. Sure, he didn’t bring what wasn’t written. But there was still Scripture and it was available in every synagogue where he went. He also brought it with him.

2 Timothy 4:13
The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

The gentiles were also not far away from those Scriptures.

Acts 17:1-4
Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ. And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Faith cometh by hearing (the preaching) and hearing by the Word of God (Scripture)

The Word of God is the foundation, not the preaching.

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Ben, this post is not intended to be unkind but to express my wonder and awe at the lack of reasoning and logic of those with the Calvinist mindset and the ignorance that is presented here every day. You are no more guilty than your colleagues of diminishing the scriptures by not rightly dividing them, but likewise, you are no less guilty. Jesus said why he came to Israel when he did.

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.(the mysteries were not written there except they were hidden in types and similitudes)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Opening their understanding is revelation.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (aion = age) unto our glory:

What is the wisdom of God? What is the mystery? Are we told? Can we know? Before I answer that I have a couple observations.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them (the mysteries) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't. An unsaved man cannot know these mysteries because he does not have a divine teacher. Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. I have noted that the parables Jesus spoke and are now written are not easier for natural men today to understand than when they were first spoken.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

How does he teach some and not others?
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There must be much comparison of words, the consistency of which is lost with your hundreds of translations in a single language.

I will quick say the gospel is not a mystery but is so simple a child can understand it and some can even preach it. Mt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

So, here is the mystery of God which is the focus of 1 Cor 2 defined in a single verse. It is stated so clearly that no no one should miss it. It is in the context of the explanation of the mystery of Christ, the theme of the letter to the Ephesians.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Don't miss this. The church, the body of Christ, makes known to heavenly beings the wisdom of God and they can observe it. Understand what they saw. God was making a trinitarian image of himself by three distinct entities becoming one body of Christ, who is the head. The Jews who believed, the gentiles who believed, and the Holy Ghost who dwells in the body as a temple. See Eph 3:6

It was not a mystery that God had purposed to save gentiles through his seed. We learn that in the Abrahamic covenant. The OT scriptures say nothing about God purposing to create a new man in this age so the mystery is that Jews and gentiles would be separate in the body bur equally sons of God and as one.

Here are some verses to prove that God had always planned on making a way for the gentiles to be saved. So that was not the mystery or it would not be written in the OT scriptures. This is just plain logic.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e. the Abrahamic Covenant):
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy (not promises but mercy); as it is written, For this cause (the cause of being glorified - see Re 4:11 in the KJV) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

According to God, preaching of the cross is foolishness but the words of God are foolishness to the unwashed.

JD731 said:

Ben, this post is not intended to be unkind but to express my wonder and awe at the lack of reasoning and logic of those with the Calvinist mindset and the ignorance that is presented here every day.

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You think because I disagreed with what you said that I am a Calvinist? If not, I don't follow your logic. I merely pointed out the error in your statement here:

JD731 said:

This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture. Paul did not write his first letter until 49 AD (he was saved in 37/38 AD).

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by showing that the Scriptures were not only there and were available, they were used.

And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As you, yourself say,

JD731 said:

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't.

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Do you Believe Romans 10:17?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

JD731 said:

You are no more guilty than your colleagues of diminishing the scriptures by not rightly dividing them, but likewise, you are no less guilty. Jesus said why he came to Israel when he did.

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You, apparently, are taking what I said and applying it to what I was not talking about. From my point of view, this is to avoid your having to say that you were wrong and Scripture was used in the conversion of the gentiles, and that the Bible places "the Word of God" as the origination of helping people to be saved.

You accuse me of not using Scripture rightly, but you never addressed any Scripture I quoted and explained what I said wrong.

JD731 said:

Lk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.(the mysteries were not written there except they were hidden in types and similitudes)
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Opening their understanding is revelation.

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world (aion = age) unto our glory:

What is the wisdom of God? What is the mystery? Are we told? Can we know? Before I answer that I have a couple observations.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them (the mysteries) unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

This is either true or false. You either believe it or you don't. An unsaved man cannot know these mysteries because he does not have a divine teacher. Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples. I have noted that the parables Jesus spoke and are now written are not easier for natural men today to understand than when they were first spoken.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

How does he teach some and not others?
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There must be much comparison of words, the consistency of which is lost with your hundreds of translations in a single language.

I will quick say the gospel is not a mystery but is so simple a child can understand it and some can even preach it. Mt 21:16 And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

So, here is the mystery of God which is the focus of 1 Cor 2 defined in a single verse. It is stated so clearly that no no one should miss it. It is in the context of the explanation of the mystery of Christ, the theme of the letter to the Ephesians.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Don't miss this. The church, the body of Christ, makes known to heavenly beings the wisdom of God and they can observe it. Understand what they saw. God was making a trinitarian image of himself by three distinct entities becoming one body of Christ, who is the head. The Jews who believed, the gentiles who believed, and the Holy Ghost who dwells in the body as a temple. See Eph 3:6

It was not a mystery that God had purposed to save gentiles through his seed. We learn that in the Abrahamic covenant. The OT scriptures say nothing about God purposing to create a new man in this age so the mystery is that Jews and gentiles would be separate in the body bur equally sons of God and as one.

Here are some verses to prove that God had always planned on making a way for the gentiles to be saved. So that was not the mystery or it would not be written in the OT scriptures. This is just plain logic.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob i.e. the Abrahamic Covenant):
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy (not promises but mercy); as it is written, For this cause (the cause of being glorified - see Re 4:11 in the KJV) I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people (Israel).
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people (Israel).
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

According to God, preaching of the cross is foolishness but the words of God are foolishness to the unwashed.

Click to expand...

None of this has anything to do with whether or not there was Scripture available to the Gentiles that believed.
I also showed that there was Scripture available to the Gentiles from Scripture. This is the only thing that I was saying.
If you would care to tell me why any of those things I said, specifically are wrong, I'll listen.
If you are embarrassed and trying to save face because you said something that is not true, don't accuse me of twisting Scripture.
I hope this is, instead, a case you misunderstanding what I said.

Ben1445 said:

You think because I disagreed with what you said that I am a Calvinist? If not, I don't follow your logic. I merely pointed out the error in your statement here:

by showing that the Scriptures were not only there and were available, they were used.

And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. As you, yourself say,

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Whether you are a Calvinist or not, the error is the same. The word of God does not always refer to scripture. I could show examples , but later maybe.

Ben1445 said:

Do you Believe Romans 10:17?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Click to expand...

I believe Rom 10:17 has a historical and ethnic and doctrinal and prophetical context, none of which many commentators have considered. This epistle to the Romans was written in 58 AD, a full 28 years after Jesus rose from the dead. Many things had transpired concerning the Jews of Jerusalem and Judaea during the first 7 years after the resurrection. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and savior and King nationally. According to the prophet, Jesus, during the last week of his life with his people Israel before they crucified him he said this in a parable. Bare with me here; This parable will cover the two thousand years known as the church age and beginning with the 7 year ministry that we read about in Acts 1-7 to Jerusalem and Judah. I am going to quote it because if I don't you will not read it.

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Mt 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

This is Mark 16:15-16 and the servants are the apostles.

What did he do?

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden (that would be the Samaritans who represent the 10 tribes, see John 4), Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (in 70 AD), and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Jerusalem).

You will notice if you read the Jewish epistles, Hebrews thru Jude, that church doctrine is not what their epistles are concerned with, but the revelation, the return of Jesus Christ and their kingdom on the earth.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, (not many Christians understand this or believes that in 70 AD the wedding was ready and a right response from those who were bidden would have ensured that it would have occurred at that time) but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Three realities are now present beginning in 70 AD
1)The wedding was delayed. Why? the house must be filled first (Lk 14 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in). This would take time.
2) The Nation dispersed into the gentile nations and covenants unfulfilled, the Jews are reckoned by God as gentiles, and the bride at this point takes on a gentile personality. It will be a gentile bride simply because all who make it up from this time are gentiles, even if one is an ethnic Jew.
3) The Jewish nation, the withered fig tree, and also the King, Jesus, are separated from the land during the time that the guests are gathered from among the gentiles by the gospel preachers. I don't know if anyone reading this can see the incredible wisdom of God of preparing his people for salvation by making them as gentiles and saving them as gentiles, one by one, while the nation is considered dead and buried, and awaiting resurrection and the Spirit. What love the Father has for Israel. It is mind-blowing.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There are true and false believers and they must be separated. One must be born again to be in that wedding.

The moral of the story is that context is always our friend and right division of the truth is a must. All scripture is given to us but all scripture is not to us. It is best to find out which is and honor it.

JD731 said:

Whether you are a Calvinist or not, the error is the same. The word of God does not always refer to scripture. I could show examples , but later maybe.

I believe Rom 10:17 has a historical and ethnic and doctrinal and prophetical context, none of which many commentators have considered. This epistle to the Romans was written in 58 AD, a full 28 years after Jesus rose from the dead. Many things had transpired concerning the Jews of Jerusalem and Judaea during the first 7 years after the resurrection. The Jews had rejected their Messiah and savior and King nationally. According to the prophet, Jesus, during the last week of his life with his people Israel before they crucified him he said this in a parable. Bare with me here; This parable will cover the two thousand years known as the church age and beginning with the 7 year ministry that we read about in Acts 1-7 to Jerusalem and Judah. I am going to quote it because if I don't you will not read it.

46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.
Mt 22:1 ¶ And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

This is Mark 16:15-16 and the servants are the apostles.

What did he do?

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden (that would be the Samaritans who represent the 10 tribes, see John 4), Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies (in 70 AD), and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city (Jerusalem).

You will notice if you read the Jewish epistles, Hebrews thru Jude, that church doctrine is not what their epistles are concerned with, but the revelation, the return of Jesus Christ and their kingdom on the earth.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, (not many Christians understand this or believes that in 70 AD the wedding was ready and a right response from those who were bidden would have ensured that it would have occurred at that time) but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Three realities are now present beginning in 70 AD
1)The wedding was delayed. Why? the house must be filled first (Lk 14 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel [them] to come in, that my house may be filled Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in). This would take time.
2) The Nation dispersed into the gentile nations and covenants unfulfilled, the Jews are reckoned by God as gentiles, and the bride at this point takes on a gentile personality. It will be a gentile bride simply because all who make it up from this time are gentiles, even if one is an ethnic Jew.
3) The Jewish nation, the withered fig tree, and also the King, Jesus, are separated from the land during the time that the guests are gathered from among the gentiles by the gospel preachers. I don't know if anyone reading this can see the incredible wisdom of God of preparing his people for salvation by making them as gentiles and saving them as gentiles, one by one, while the nation is considered dead and buried, and awaiting resurrection and the Spirit. What love the Father has for Israel. It is mind-blowing.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

There are true and false believers and they must be separated. One must be born again to be in that wedding.

The moral of the story is that context is always our friend and right division of the truth is a must. All scripture is given to us but all scripture is not to us. It is best to find out which is and honor it.

Click to expand...

This doesn’t change the fact that Scripture was used in the conversion of the Gentiles. I am not answering your whole thread, only the one point.
You were wrong when you said this.

JD731 said:

This means gentiles were being saved by hearing the preacher preach the gospel long before they had any scripture.

Click to expand...

You have not addressed this problem.
You have told me about everything else.
I am not talking about anything else but this one statement that you made. It was inaccurate. I gave you Scripture that shows that Scripture was used in reaching the Gentiles.
Do you still stand by this statement that you made, or do you see that the Gentiles were taught out of Scripture?

Ben1445 said:

This doesn’t change the fact that Scripture was used in the conversion of the Gentiles. I am not answering your whole thread, only the one point.
You were wrong when you said this.

You have not addressed this problem.
You have told me about everything else.
I am not talking about anything else but this one statement that you made. It was inaccurate. I gave you Scripture that shows that Scripture was used in reaching the Gentiles.
Do you still stand by this statement that you made, or do you see that the Gentiles were taught out of Scripture?

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It is a problem for you, not me, and I have tried to explain to you how the scriptures, when you read them, have context.

Yes! I stand by my statement. The gospel is the power (authority) of God unto salvation to every one who believes it. The saving gospel (good news, glad tidings) is not restricted to a book. Good grief, man, God does not have men write scripture in a national language and send it to nations who have never heard the gospel, he sends men who have his burden for them to preach the gospel to them in their language so they can understand. The scripture in the language of the missionary is the authority for him but the gospel he preaches is the authority of God to the hearer.

I did not make this up. It is in the scriptures. I learned it from the KJV after I was saved. There is no precedent of God sending the written word to the unwashed before he sent the spoken word. Our resident missionary, @John of Japan, is only now publishing a Japanese Bible after spending a lifetime of personally preaching the truths he had learned and been assured of. They need the scriptures to understand the mysteries of God and his "deep things."

I am not arguing against your unscriptural ideas as much as I am arguing for mine, which I know are scriptural. Written scriptures are for saved people. I do not understand your struggle with the simplest of truth and a Bible full of evidences of this truth..

Paul, after he wrote his letters, did not mail them to the cities where he had preached but to the churches that had been established in the cities where he had preached. They were the only people in the cities who would benefit.