Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder

[Rippon]

I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.

I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says. The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know ( in an intimate sense, foreloved ).

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau.But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter.Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd.Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.

As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently.Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).

 

[Jarthur001]

I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.

I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says. The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know ( in an intimate sense, foreloved ).

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau.But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter.Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd.Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.

As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently.Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).

Reminds me of Charles Haddon Spurgeon words...

http://www.lincolnstandard.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=2255&SectionID=26&SubSectionID=26&S=1

 

[Gina B]

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

If you've ever tried to get a bunch of goats to all stand on the left side of you, you'd realize in a flash that indeed, the goats have to be herded. Sheep are easy. Them goats just run all over, eating your shoelaces and nibbling on your staff.

 

[pinoybaptist]

If you've ever tried to get a bunch of goats to all stand on the left side of you, you'd realize in a flash that indeed, the goats have to be herded. Sheep are easy. Them goats just run all over, eating your shoelaces and nibbling on your staff.

true.
and there is a goatherd, Satan.

the sheep, however, do need to be herded.
that animal is so stupid he wouldn't know he's about to step on dung if it were a foot away, and a sense of direction so crossed he doesn't know east from west and has to rely on his master's voice, or the tingling bells of the lead sheep.

 

[pinoybaptist]

now, my question is: why are the un-elect referred to as goats ? and why are the elect referred to as sheep ?

 

[webdog]

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

um...because they are part of the "world"?

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Do I have a problem with God's sovereignty? No. Do I have a problem with YOUR definition of God's sovereignty? What do you think?

The above bolded is true, but it is also true that He love the WORLD, which the sheep and goats are both part of.

Sheep are referred to as the jews too, btw, as are the "elect".

 

[Jerome]

What about the dogs?


Jesus: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Canaanite woman: "Lord, help me!"

Jesus: "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

Canaaanite woman: "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."

Jesus: "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish."

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Dogs are gentiles.

 

[skypair]

There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

This is simply YOUR interpretation of Mt 25:1-13 combined with Mt 25:31-46, rip.

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says.

Where does Mt 25:31-46 say "I never knew you?"

He doesn't love them because they merit that love.

Um, Mt 25:31-46 SPECIFICALLY talks about merit -- "You fed Me. You gave Me drink." You are SO transparent, rip!


The simple answer is that "sheep" are BELIEVERS, period. Don't try to read foreknowledge into the parable and remove all doubt of your shameless Calvinism.

skypair

 

[Rippon]

This is simply YOUR interpretation of Mt 25:1-13 combined with Mt 25:31-46, rip.

Where does Mt 25:31-46 say "I never knew you?"

Rip: It doesn't. But do you think the Lord knows whom He condemns to everlasting perdition?! Of course not.

Um, Mt 25:31-46 SPECIFICALLY talks about merit -- "You fed Me. You gave Me drink." You are SO transparent, rip!

Rip: Who has any merit whatsoever to stand on that in the presence of the Lord?!No one is justified by their works.That's elementary Christianity SP.

Thanks for calling me 'transparent'. That means I am honest and straightforward -- direct, not evasive.


The simple answer is that "sheep" are BELIEVERS, period. Don't try to read foreknowledge into the parable and remove all doubt of your shameless Calvinism.

Rip:There are a host of descriptive terms that the Bible uses to identify the elect. Believers is one such name, but it's not the only one 'period'. You need to study God's Word more.

SP: You understand that the Lord knows only His elect, right? He loves only them. "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined... And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorfied." ( NRSV, Romans 8:29a-30). He foreknows only His elect ones. He foreloved them. He determined to set His love on them alone long before the world began. Foreknowledge in God's Word is not mere advance knowledge of things about people, but He knows His own personally in covenantal love.

 

[psalms109:31]

Sheep

Jesus looked into the multitude and called them sheep, not His sheep, but sheep without a shepherd.

When they slaughtered sheep they would let a goat lead a sheep up a ramp that lead to a pit where they were slaughtered the sheep. The goat would jump off right at the end and the sheep would continue into the pit.

See a goat is a false teacher leading poor sheep into a pit to die.

Those people are out there without a shepherd being lead by false teachers, and you are so deceived to believe that they are goats.

All I can do is pray for you that you will see the truth in His word.

A false teacher knows what he is and knows what he is doing but continues to do it.

Jesus has rejected His own not because they were not His, but because they received Him not. Jesus tells us that if we disown Him before man, He will disown us in front of the Father.

If they follow the goats they are goats if the receive Jesus they are His sheep.

Jesus did not come to condemned the world but to save it and made us the messenger of it, until judgment time comes the separation of the goats and sheep they are all sheep and all have hope.

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[Rippon]

until judgment time comes the separation of the goats and sheep they are all sheep and all have hope.

Rip: And that is just your imagination comin' through.You specialize in quoting a lot of unrelated Bible texts having little to nothing in common with threads. But where, I ask, is there Scripture to support this unique view of yours? Where in Holy Writ does it say that all are sheep until the separation on Judgment Day? Are you confusing America's process of considering someone innocent until proven guilty?Sorry, that doesn't wash with the Word of God.As I explained in the OP, sheep are always sheep. Goats are always goats. A sheep can't become a goat, and a goat can't become a sheep.

 

[Sopranette]

Yes, a goat can become a sheep. Look at the life of Paul, slaughtering Christians right and left. Then he, too, became a disciple of Christ. I will never subscribe to the belief that there are people, whom God has created, fearfully and wonderfully, that are destined to Hell from the moment of birth, no matter who witnesses to them, or how many times they've read the Word of God. This point of view about sheep and goats is elitist, and prideful.

love,

Sopranette

 

[jdlongmire]

Yes, a goat can become a sheep. Look at the life of Paul, slaughtering Christians right and left. Then he, too, became a disciple of Christ. I will never subscribe to the belief that there are people, whom God has created, fearfully and wonderfully, that are destined to Hell from the moment of birth, no matter who witnesses to them, or how many times they've read the Word of God.

Unfortunately, this is not a Scriptural position and does not acknowledge that salvation belongs to the Lord - not to Man - we lost any right and ability when Adam sinned against God.

 

[Sopranette]

Unfortunately, this is not a Scriptural position and does not acknowledge that salvation belongs to the Lord - not to Man - we lost any right and ability when Adam sinned against God.

Oh, yes it is. It's very basic scripture. "For God so loved the WORLD, that He gave his only begotten Son, so that whoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Notice He doesn't select a certain group, but includes the whole world.

love,

Sopranette

 

[jdlongmire]

Yet, out of the whole world, only a portion, "whosoever believes", will be saved.

The questions you have to answer scripturally is "Who will believe?" and "Where does belief originate?"

 

[David Lamb]

Yet, out of the whole world, only a portion, "whosoever believes", will be saved.

The questions you have to answer scripturally is "Who will believe?" and "Where does belief originate?"

Right, and it is the sheep who believe. We don't become sheep by believing; it is the other way round. Jesus said in John 10.26:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you."

​

He did not say, "You are not of my sheep, because you do not believe."

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus looked into the multitude and called them sheep, not His sheep, but sheep without a shepherd.

That is not quite correct. He did not call them sheep; they (the multitude following Him) were like sheep. Mark 6.33-34:

33 But the multitudes saw them departing, and many knew Him and ran there on foot from all the cities. They arrived before them and came together to Him. 34 And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.

​

When they slaughtered sheep they would let a goat lead a sheep up a ramp that lead to a pit where they were slaughtered the sheep. The goat would jump off right at the end and the sheep would continue into the pit.

See a goat is a false teacher leading poor sheep into a pit to die.
Those people are out there without a shepherd being lead by false teachers, and you are so deceived to believe that they are goats.

All I can do is pray for you that you will see the truth in His word.

A false teacher knows what he is and knows what he is doing but continues to do it.

Perhaps you could give us some biblical authority for that idea. Apart from references to actual, four-legged goats, the only place where I can see goats mentioned in the New Testament is in Matthew 25.31-33:

"31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left."

​

The context there is not false teachers, but "false doers", as can be seen from the subsequent verses of that chapter. The bible sometimes calls false teachers "shepherds", as for example in Jeremiah 50.6:

"My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place."​

And in one place, Zahariah 10.3, the false teachers are referred to both as shepherds and as goatherds:

"My anger is kindled against the shepherds, And I will punish the goatherds. For the LORD of hosts will visit His flock, The house of Judah, And will make them as His royal horse in the battle."



​

But I have been unable to find a single instance in Old Testament or New of false teachers being called "goats". Perhaps you can help, and tell me where this is found.

Jesus has rejected His own not because they were not His, but because they received Him not. Jesus tells us that if we disown Him before man, He will disown us in front of the Father.

If they follow the goats they are goats if the receive Jesus they are His sheep.

Jesus did not come to condemned the world but to save it and made us the messenger of it, until judgment time comes the separation of the goats and sheep they are all sheep and all have hope.

I am afraid you have lost me there. In one paragraph you say that those who follow goats (who, in your view are false teachers) are themselves goats. But in the very next paragraph, you say that until judgment time comes, "they are all sheep and all have hope." How can some be goats and at the same time all be sheep?

 

[skypair]

This is simply YOUR interpretation of Mt 25:1-13 combined with Mt 25:31-46, rip.

Where does Mt 25:31-46 say "I never knew you?"

Rip: It doesn't. But do you think the Lord knows whom He condemns to everlasting perdition?! Of course not.

So He's not omniscient? So He doesn't choose anyone to reprobation?

Rip: Who has any merit whatsoever to stand on that in the presence of the Lord?!No one is justified by their works.That's elementary Christianity SP.

Apparently the one who "gives a drink of water to the least of these," rip (Mt 10:42).

SP: You understand that the Lord knows only His elect, right?

Not omniscient?

He loves only them.

"God so loved the WORLD..." No, I don't see your point in scripture.

Foreknowledge in God's Word is not mere advance knowledge of things about people, but He knows His own personally in covenantal love.

How many times do we have to tell you that you have a "nuanced" understanding of 'foreknowledge' is half truth?

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Not omniscient?

Rip: You are being silly SP. Of course the Lord is omniscient. I know that I believe that God's power is greater than you hold to.

But try as you might, you will not be able to erase verses from the Bible that reference the fact that He knows the elect in counter-distinction to those who are reprobates.

The Lord's knowlege is all-encompassing. However,He has an intimate love of His own people that He selected before the world was made, hence He knows some in that manner, and He does not 'know' the rest of humanity.