sensual worship???

[nodak]

I'm not putting this in music because while it includes the music portion of a service, it isn't limited to the music.

We spent most of the past 12 months in a church search. We visited all kinds--traditional evangelical, contemporary evangelical, liturgical, etc.

Music ranged from country to bluegrass to traditional to southern gospel to contemporary.

Preaching was homilies, exegetical, hell fire and damnation, seeker sensitive, and about everything in between.

But a few times, either the music or the preaching or the prayers were, well, weird. Embarrassing. Made us feel like the singer/preacher/teacher/prayer was coming on to us in a sensual way.

Happened in a variety of settings.

Heaven help us, is this the next fad?

 

[sag38]

But a few times, either the music or the preaching or the prayers were, well, weird. Embarrassing. Made us feel like the singer/preacher/teacher/prayer was coming on to us in a sensual way.

Can you be more specific? I've never felt a preacher or music leader was coming onto me. Now, I may have considered the preaching or music to be weak or an attempt to simply appeal to the feelings of the audience, but to experience what you are suggesting, never.

 

[annsni]

Ewwww!! What made you feel that way? Anything specific? I've not experienced that, honestly. Even though we have the girls dance in our church, it's far from sensual, IMO (especially since there's no big moving of hips and these poor girls get lost in the miles of fabric).

 

[nodak]

Let's see--first time was a very sedate Baptist church--SBC. Older lady did a special playing the piano and singing some southern gospel song. Her body movements and vocalizations were more in line with a bar torch singer.

Another was also music--young gals and guys on the praise team gyrating about like 1950's Elvis.

Evangelist leading prayer we felt moved from emotional pleading for sinners to come to Jesus into seductive pleading to come talk to the evangelist.

One local pastor who's body language during the sermons seemed like the moves of a transvestite looking for a partner.

And of course, the middle aged praise team lady who when she prayed became twitchingly ecstatic, eyes closed gazing upward and moaning like she was--umm--having a very good time.

If we found a service embarrassing we didn't return visit!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

That 4/4 timing and african rythyms always leading people away from God. Might as well pull out the Ashtoreh polls. :smilewinkgrin:

I find that all humans associate symbols(words, music, pictures, etc) with experiences and the more powerful the experience the more powerful the symbol. Which is why when you come to Christ its important to do things differently than you had before. In the 1700 women could show clevage and it seem proper but to show an ankle you've got lust issues working over time. If contemporary music made you feel this way in the past its only resonable to assume that it will now. Now if the Pastor was saying something to arouse then there probably is a problem but most likely the symbols presented initiated a chemical responce in your brain to illicit a feeling obtain at an earlier point in your life.

 

[annsni]

Let's see--first time was a very sedate Baptist church--SBC. Older lady did a special playing the piano and singing some southern gospel song. Her body movements and vocalizations were more in line with a bar torch singer.

Another was also music--young gals and guys on the praise team gyrating about like 1950's Elvis.

Evangelist leading prayer we felt moved from emotional pleading for sinners to come to Jesus into seductive pleading to come talk to the evangelist.

One local pastor who's body language during the sermons seemed like the moves of a transvestite looking for a partner.

And of course, the middle aged praise team lady who when she prayed became twitchingly ecstatic, eyes closed gazing upward and moaning like she was--umm--having a very good time.

If we found a service embarrassing we didn't return visit!

From the sounds of it, I'd probably do the same thing. When the worship team is so distracting that you watch them instead of worship, something is wrong, IMO.

 

[rbell]

I'm gonna regret this...

My first thought was Joey from "Friends."

How YOU doin'?

 

[SaggyWoman]

I'm not putting this in music because while it includes the music portion of a service, it isn't limited to the music.

We spent most of the past 12 months in a church search. We visited all kinds--traditional evangelical, contemporary evangelical, liturgical, etc.

Music ranged from country to bluegrass to traditional to southern gospel to contemporary.

Preaching was homilies, exegetical, hell fire and damnation, seeker sensitive, and about everything in between.

But a few times, either the music or the preaching or the prayers were, well, weird. Embarrassing. Made us feel like the singer/preacher/teacher/prayer was coming on to us in a sensual way.

Happened in a variety of settings.

Heaven help us, is this the next fad?

Interesting. I just went through a period of searching myself, but hadn't ran across sensual.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

I remember visiting a very well known church locally with a good friend many years ago, when I was first searching for a church home in a new city. At lunch after the service I asked him, "So what did you think?" He responded, "Well, it was a good show." I felt the same way and never went back. [But it was far from being sensual, just a good show.]

There is a strong movement in evangelical Christianity -- moving away from what was known as traditional worship to more of an "experience." This in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Worship is both corporate and personal, and needs to be meaningful. But way too often I'm afraid, the evangelical church focuses on our own needs rather on true worship. I sure hope that "sensual" worship is not the next step.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Now that I'm Presbyterian (formerly Baptist), I really don't worry about such things. We're not really all that hip at public worship. Historically, we prefer the music of dead, white males. Oh we try to make adjustments to a changing world-- a little hand clapping, hand raising and band playing. We try the cool stuff, but it just gets embarrassing. Most of us prefer quietness, order, dignity, predictability and just a dash of boredom.

 

[SaggyWoman]

Historically, we prefer the music of dead, white males..

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :laugh:

 

[nodak]

FriendofSpurgeon--interesting that you went presby. During our church search we went to the local one for a few weeks. We loved the service, the people, really loved the preaching and music. Pastor understood our baptistic view of no infant baptisms and was willing to support us in that. We would have joined there EXCEPT it is part of an extremely hyper liberal group when it comes to morallity. But if the tiny little church we are attending goes under, that is probably where we will attend.

AND WE LOVE THE MUSIC (AND WRITINGS) OF THOSE DEAD WHITE MALES!

 

[annsni]

FriendofSpurgeon--interesting that you went presby. During our church search we went to the local one for a few weeks. We loved the service, the people, really loved the preaching and music. Pastor understood our baptistic view of no infant baptisms and was willing to support us in that. We would have joined there EXCEPT it is part of an extremely hyper liberal group when it comes to morallity. But if the tiny little church we are attending goes under, that is probably where we will attend.

AND WE LOVE THE MUSIC (AND WRITINGS) OF THOSE DEAD WHITE MALES!

We used to be members at a similar Presbyterian church and it was great for a long while. Unfortunately a new pastor came in who did not do well with the church and we ended up leaving. But they stood against the bad morality for all these years and if it wasn't going to lose the church building right in the heart of town (a larger town - VERY good location), they'd have left the PCUSA a long time ago. But I do know that they're still fighting the bad morality.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

A good book to read is “The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom.” As I recall he was not a Christian as far as I remember, yet fully realized the sensual tendencies much of the music listened to today contains. The modern Church has borrowed from the sensual world their music to a large degree. That is not to her credit.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

FriendofSpurgeon--interesting that you went presby. During our church search we went to the local one for a few weeks. We loved the service, the people, really loved the preaching and music. Pastor understood our baptistic view of no infant baptisms and was willing to support us in that. We would have joined there EXCEPT it is part of an extremely hyper liberal group when it comes to morallity. But if the tiny little church we are attending goes under, that is probably where we will attend.

AND WE LOVE THE MUSIC (AND WRITINGS) OF THOSE DEAD WHITE MALES!

If hyper-liberal as you say, the church may be part of the PC-USA, which is the largest, more liberal of the various Presby denominations. The other ones - EPC, PCA and OPC tend to be rather conservative.

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

We used to be members at a similar Presbyterian church and it was great for a long while. Unfortunately a new pastor came in who did not do well with the church and we ended up leaving. But they stood against the bad morality for all these years and if it wasn't going to lose the church building right in the heart of town (a larger town - VERY good location), they'd have left the PCUSA a long time ago. But I do know that they're still fighting the bad morality.

Thankfully, the churches that I know of who left the PCUS to form the PCA were able to keep their own buildings. I'm afraid the Episcopalians are facing a very similar situation.

 

[Marcia]

There is a strong movement in evangelical Christianity -- moving away from what was known as traditional worship to more of an "experience." This in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Worship is both corporate and personal, and needs to be meaningful. But way too often I'm afraid, the evangelical church focuses on our own needs rather on true worship. I sure hope that "sensual" worship is not the next step.

I agree with you. There is actually a lot of thinking coming from different quarters that worship needs to involve all the senses. This sounds okay at first, but one must ask:
1. Is this a biblical pattern?
2. Where does one draw the line with the "senses?"

Some point to the OT and the use of incense, but this was how God directed them to worship and it had a specific purpose and meaning that was given by God. It also foreshadowed things in the NT. (Perhaps it covered up the smell of blood from sacrificed animals as well?)

The fact that incense was used does not mean the reason for it was so worshipers could have a sensual experience. Yet, I cannot tell you how many times I've come across this idea (one source is the Emerging church which is teaching that people in church need to worship God through all sorts of facets and need to experience him on all levels).

It is interesting that false teachers are connected to sensuality:

Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 2 Pet. 2:2

For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, 2 Pet. 2:18

There is nothing wrong with experiencing things during worship, of course, or wanting a nice environment to worship in, but when that becomes the focus, or when we do specific things in order to get a sensual experience, that is a different matter. Then the focus is no longer on God, but on us.

 

[Jim1999]

Wife says I am the only one who can tell a real funny story from the pulpit and keep a straight face.

Fact is, words alone can raise the spirit of people, excite them to worship, educate them and lead them to Christ.

We need to spend more time in words and leave the emotional part to the Holy Spirit. He can excite the soul, elevate one's sense of His presence and glorify the Christ in any service.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[OldRegular]

I remember visiting a very well known church locally with a good friend many years ago, when I was first searching for a church home in a new city. At lunch after the service I asked him, "So what did you think?" He responded, "Well, it was a good show." I felt the same way and never went back. [But it was far from being sensual, just a good show.]

There is a strong movement in evangelical Christianity -- moving away from what was known as traditional worship to more of an "experience." This in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing. Worship is both corporate and personal, and needs to be meaningful. But way too often I'm afraid, the evangelical church focuses on our own needs rather on true worship. I sure hope that "sensual" worship is not the next step.

A lot of what is called worship is really a performance. I believe that choirs are particularly guilty of this, they are performing not worshipping. If they perform well they are applauded. If they perform poorly they are not applauded.