Do Baptists have a shallow view of Corporate Worship?

IN RESPONSE TO AARON

Since you have read 1 Corinthians quite a few times, surely you've read that the Spirit is subject to the prophets. Decorum and order are paramount in the outward observances of Christian worship, not what one "feels led" to do.

First of all the verse you are misquoting does NOT say that the Spirit is subject to the prophets rather 1Corinthians 14:32 does say in the NIV translation:

"The spirits of the prophets are subject to the control of the prophets."

1. Again in your haste to make a point you have failed to understand the point you are debating. None is arguing for loss of control. And it would be highly erroneous to suggest that to express emotion in a public meeting is equitable with loss of control.
2. Know where do I say that we should do what we feel led to do so I'm not sure where you got that from.
3. You have not answered one of the challenges I raised with regard to your statements bt keep challenging what I say, Which I don't mind because I enjoy having my thinking tested. But a debate is 2 way. So unless you are williing to have a mutual and intelligent discussion regarding the subject I will have to ignore your comments because you then are commenting for the sake of commenting and not because you sincerely have something valuable to add, which is also fine, but I would prefer not waste my time on the dead end street of a one way debate.

 

IN RESPONSE TO CARPRO

Music for the sake of music serves no real purpose in the service

Agreed, just as sermons for the sake of sermons servs no real purpose in the service.
The reason I raise this point is because we, not you in particular, tend to very critical and discerning when it comes to music and are sometimes quick to shout down worthless music but we tend to be a little more accepting when it comes to preaching. Yet we are sadly mistaken if we think that everytime a sermon is preached, God is speaking!

The point I would like to raise is:

HOW DO WE ASSESS WHEN PEOPLE HAVE WORSHIPPED OR NOT?

You may then ask but why would we even need to do that? Well, then let's break it down completely.

WHAT ON EARTH IS WORSHIP? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO WORSHIP?

Having an accurate definition is vital because that definition becomes the plumbline by which we check whether we are remaining true to our biblical convictions and whether or not we are achieving what we have set out to achieve.
In my experience too many churches are putting too much effort into trying to direct and/or overhaul their worship experience through superficial things like song choice and style, better trained musicians and leaders, new equipment and even order of service. To me that's just window dressing!
The thing that really revolutionises your worship experience is arriving at an accurate biblical deinition of worship and then allowing that definition to sketch the parameters and principles in which your ministry operates.

So let me then ask you....

DO YOU HAVE A CORPORATELY ACCEPTED BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF WORSHIP?

WHAT IS THAT DEFINITION?

DOES IT FORM THE BACKBONE OF YOUR MINISTRY?

 

What is meant by "spirits" but the use of their gifts of prophecy and the insight given them by the Spirit? Even what one says under divine inspiration is subject to 1) order and decorum, and 2) the scrutiny of the other prophets.

Well if you are reading the verse correctly the instruction is given in a completely different immediate context to what we are talking about. Yes the general context is what happens in the public service but that doesn't mean that every instruction he gives is a general one, some instructions apply to specific situations as is this case which is very different to the matter of music in worship.

1. He was dealing with prophets who were spokes people for God so it is in the context of God speaking to us not us speaking to God.
2. It is impossible for 3 prophets to bring a message from God simultaneously because that would be noise and create confusion.
3. He is dealing with the order in which things are to happen, 1 at a time, that is the problem not emotions or exhuberance. They must speak one at a time. Imagine 3 people preaching at the same time, it would be chaos. He is simply making a practical point and not curbing emotion so you are completely out of context in your quote of that scripture as a support.

And if a genuine operation of the Holy Ghost thus subject to order and decorum, how much more what is commonly called "the Spirit" (i.e. one's feelings) in modern circles?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but I've never said there should be loss of control but what I'm beginning to understand from your comments is that maybe you equate quietness and reserve of emotion with true spirituality which is a fallacy, because some of the most carnal people I've ever met are the quietest as are some of the most exhuberant so when all is said and done it makes no sense to judge a person's spiritual condition or state of worship based on outward apprearance.

Yes, you are. Go back and read #49. Your point was that the time allotted and the order of the service should be out the window if the Spirit (i.e. what one feels) says the "service" should go longer or the order rearranged.

What I'm also beginning to understand is that because of your misquotation and erroneous interpretation of the 1 Corinthians 14:32 which refers to the human spirit and not the Holy Spirit you have now chosen to conveniently ignore the intended meaning of my statements and replace them with definitions that suit your point of view as in the above quote.
When I use a capital letter in the word Spirit I am referring to the Holy Spirit not the human spirit, so it has nothing to do with feelings as you are forcibly tryinging to assert but rather with God's superintending and direction of the service.
Do you not believe that the Holy Spirit is part of a corporate meeting and that He participates actively in it? No wonder you can't experience joy in God's presence yet the word says " In His presence there is fulness of joy!" "I was glad when they said let us go to the house of the Lord" Take some time to read the Psalms and consider statements like:

Psalm 1
1 Shout for joy to the LORD - er... how loud should we shout???

2 Worship the LORD with gladness; - is that inwardly or outwarly glad?

You would have to ignore the entire book of Psalms to preach emotionless cold worship to me!
I don't know about you but, there were times in my life where life if it were not for God my life would have been destroyed. He rescued me and performed miracles in my marriage and life. At those times I cried out aloud to Him out of the depths of despair and He heard me. Well I ought to shout His praises atleast as loud and as long as I've cried! Excuse me if I get emotional when I consider His grace and goodness to me, It makes me want to shout...

Psalm 66
1 Shout with joy to God, all the earth!
2 Sing the glory of his name;
make his praise glorious!

3 Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds!
So great is your power
that your enemies cringe before you.

4 All the earth bows down to you;
they sing praise to you,
they sing praise to your name."
Selah

5 Come and see what God has done,
how awesome his works in man's behalf!

6 He turned the sea into dry land,
they passed through the waters on foot—
come, let us rejoice in him.

7 He rules forever by his power,
his eyes watch the nations—
let not the rebellious rise up against him.
Selah

8 Praise our God, O peoples,
let the sound of his praise be heard;

9 he has preserved our lives
and kept our feet from slipping.

10 For you, O God, tested us;
you refined us like silver.

11 You brought us into prison
and laid burdens on our backs.

12 You let men ride over our heads;
we went through fire and water,
but you brought us to a place of abundance.

13 I will come to your temple with burnt offerings
and fulfill my vows to you-

14 vows my lips promised and my mouth spoke
when I was in trouble.

15 I will sacrifice fat animals to you
and an offering of rams;
I will offer bulls and goats.
Selah

16 Come and listen, all you who fear God;
let me tell you what he has done for me.

17 I cried out to him with my mouth;
his praise was on my tongue.

18 If I had cherished sin in my heart,
the Lord would not have listened;

19 but God has surely listened
and heard my voice in prayer.

20 Praise be to God,
who has not rejected my prayer
or withheld his love from me!

CAN YOU HEAR ME...I'M SHOUTING RIGHT NOW, AND DANCING TOO!!!


As for time and order of service,

Yes, you are. Go back and read #49. Your point was that the time allotted and the order of the service should be out the window if the Spirit (i.e. what one feels) says the "service" should go longer or the order rearranged.

Once again you are reading into my statements I never said anything should go out the window.

Let me ask you,

If preacher is preaching a sermon and he runs out of time before he can make a final point that he feels very strongly he should make, should he leave that point out and close the service or continue?

If someone is leading a service and according to the order of service he asks someone to pray or give a tesimony and that person takes longer than anticipated, should he stop that person?

Do you believe that God is active in the service or that it is a purely human exercise?

 

In response to Aaron

Tell me, how were the Psalms performed in the synagogues and in the Temple?

Err...sorry to enlighten you Aaron but the truth is that many of the Psalms were used in temple worship in the time of David and in fact many of them were written for that purpose.

Here is a quote from the Wikipedia encyclopedia on the subject:

The Temple was the place where offerings described in the course of the Hebrew Bible were carried out, including daily morning and afternoon offerings and special offerings on Shabbat and Jewish holidays. Levites recited Psalms at appropriate moments during the offerings, including the Psalm of the Day, special psalms for the new month, and other occasions, the Hallel during major Jewish holidays, and psalms for special sacrifices such as the "Psalm for the Thanksgiving Offering" (Psalm 100).

As part of the daily offering, a prayer service was performed in the Temple which was used as the basis of the traditional Jewish (morning) service recited to this day, including well-known prayers such as the Barchu, the Shema, and the Priestly Blessing. The Mishna describes it as follows:

“ The superintendent said to them, recite the Barchu, and they read the Ten Commandments, and the Shema, "And it shall come to pass if you will hearken", and "And [God] spoke...". They pronounced three benedictions with the people present: "True and firm", and the "Avodah" {"Accept, Lord our God, the service of your people Israel, and the fire-offerings of Israel and their prayer receive with favor. Blessed is He who receives the service of His people Israel with favor" (similar to what is today the 17th blessing of the Amidah), and the Priestly Blessing, and on the Sabbath they recited one blessing; "May He who causes His name to dwell in this House, cause to dwell among you love and brotherliness, peace and friendship" on behalf of the weekly Priestly Guard that departed.

Now do us all a favour and stop arguing about things you don't even have an inclination to at least do some personal research on before making argumentative and highly opinionated comments...

 

Does Worship make a difference?

True worship involves ascribing worth to God. But when we ascribe worth to God it really makes no difference to Him.
He delights in it, He requires it, He may accept it or reject it, but the truth is it really makes no difference to Him.
Our worship cannot add to Him and our failure to worship Him cannot subtract from Him just as our believing in Him does not make Him a reality and our doubt of His existence does make Him cease to be a reality.
We cannot add or subtract from His glory or essence by anything we do or do not do.
He is not like Tinkerbell the fairy who fades from reality when our faith in her wanes but glows brightly when our belief returns as we sincerely chant: "I believe in fairies! I believe in fairies!"
What we do or do not do does not and cannot sustain Him or any of His divine characteristics in any way. He says of Himself: "I the Lord do not change!" Malachi 3:6

He is the self-existent self-sustaining one in whom all things have their source, sustainance and end.
Our worship makes no difference to God...but boy it does make a difference to us!