Why don't the MV's keep their principle, the Oldest the Best?

[Pastor Larry]

I remember you always repeat the same words like that, evading the decisive answer.

How can I give a decisive answer when I have not studied it enough?

You have done that too much. You should not be encouraging other to do it.

Why not interact with the textual evidence from the textual commentary and post something of substance that we can interact on?

It crosses my mind ... Do you even know what the textual commentary is?

 

[EdSutton]

Personally, I'm still wonderin' why most of those who would oppose these so-called "MVs" (without even knowing what a "MV" really is), never actually seem to cite or support any older (or other) version/edition that that of the KJV-1769??

How come so few ever actually seem to offer anything other than glossed-over, 'lipstick covered' phony "lip-service" in support of WYC, WYC-P, TYN, MCB, MATT, TAV, GRT, BISH, or GEN, and for the most part, the (actual) KJ-1611, to name some better known editions/versions?

And folks, please don't insult whatever intelligence, I may happen to possess, with any 'bait-and-switch' bit, by the allusion that it is really all about the texts (unspoken is that it is, almost invariably, the NT texts, that are referred to), when the same effective 'opposition' is given to the WES, WBT, YLT, DBY, KJII, KJ21, NKJV, TMB, or any of several other "MVs" that are based on exactly the same NT texts (as well as can be determined, for we do not actually know this to the nth detail, as God, in His providence, apparently allowed the translators' notes, records, and MSs of the 1611 Company to perish in the Great London Fire), as was the KJ-1611.

It is one thing to not prefer the, say, NIV, RSV, or NASB, because of the NT text from which these are translated and/or by which these are supported; it is another thing entirely, to be inconsistent, in opposition to such as the WBT, NKJV, or TMB (this last of which, BTW, has all the same 70 books, as did the KJ-1611), because of honest footnotes (the same sort of which are found as side-notes in any 'genuine' KJ-1611), when these and other versions were, in fact, translated from the same textual basis as was the KJ-1611, at least to my way of thinking. Not to mention, it is conveniently ignored that BISH lay directly behind the KJ-1611, and some renderings in the KJ-1611 come directly from the D-R, as well.

FTR, I generally much prefer my own copies of two particular editions of the KJV and NKJV, these being the two I effectively use exclusively, on anything remotely resembling a regular basis, although I will cite any English version, when faithful rendering is given to a particular text, and that version 'says' something in an extremely clear manner.

Also, FTR, I do not recall supporting the W/H text (or the TR, for that matter) against the MT, either, anywhere on the BB.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

... TMB (this last of which, BTW, has all the same 70 books, as did the KJ-1611)

Just noticed this typo I made this AM. This should actually read"

"TMB (this last of which, BTW, has all the same 80 books, as did the KJ-1611)."

The KJ-1611 contained eighty (80) books, not 70 as I erroneously typed (and certainly not ONLY 66).

I apologize.

Ed

 

[Eliyahu]

How can I give a decisive answer when I have not studied it enough?

You have done that too much. You should not be encouraging other to do it.

Why not interact with the textual evidence from the textual commentary and post something of substance that we can interact on?

It crosses my mind ... Do you even know what the textual commentary is?

The key point is this:

Your final authority is Textual Criticism, and my final authority is the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


What does the Holy Spirit in you teach you? Does He teach you to consult with the Textual Criticism?

What does the Holy Spirit teach you about Mark 16 and John 8?

If your " holy spirit" does not know anything about the Bible, then it is big problem with you!

 

[robycop3]

The Holy Spirit certainly does NOT teach KJVO! It aint in SCRIPTURE, so the HS doesn't teach it.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The key point is this:

Your final authority is Textual Criticism, and my final authority is the Holy Spirit.

Really? You are practicing textual criticism. Your final authority isn't the Holy Spirit. You have not yet one time cited the Holy Spirit as your source. You have said it, but you haven't shown where the Holy Spirit has said what you say.

You have a gross misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit that is very close to a violation of the third commandment about taking the name of the Lord in vain. To take his name in vain means, among other things, not to use it for things he would not use it for. When you attach the name of the Holy Spirit to your personal conclusions, you are using his name lightly. I do not know of any place where the Holy Spirit has affirmed your positions. If you can show it to me from the Spirit, then I will agree. But you haven't yet done that. And that is a major problem.

How will you respond if I say the Holy Spirit has taught me that you are wrong, and that I should force you to agree with me? You can say, "Well he didn't say that." But how do you know? You can say, "He didn't tell me that." I can say, "You aren't listening." Seriously, how can you argue against me? You can't. The Holy Spirit becomes a cheap trump card for you to throw on the table when you can't actually argue using Scripture. That is taking his name in vain, and I am very uncomfortable with it. I may well be wrong and you right on this issue, but the Holy Spirit did not show you that. So let's back off those claims and be more careful about invoking the Holy Spirit.

 

[gb93433]

The key point is this:

Your final authority is Textual Criticism, and my final authority is the Holy Spirit.

I have heard the same thing from heretics too.

Did God give you a brain to think with and use or is that not valid?

 

[Eliyahu]

Really? You are practicing textual criticism. Your final authority isn't the Holy Spirit. You have not yet one time cited the Holy Spirit as your source. You have said it, but you haven't shown where the Holy Spirit has said what you say.

You have a gross misunderstanding of the Holy Spirit that is very close to a violation of the third commandment about taking the name of the Lord in vain. To take his name in vain means, among other things, not to use it for things he would not use it for. When you attach the name of the Holy Spirit to your personal conclusions, you are using his name lightly. I do not know of any place where the Holy Spirit has affirmed your positions. If you can show it to me from the Spirit, then I will agree. But you haven't yet done that. And that is a major problem.

How will you respond if I say the Holy Spirit has taught me that you are wrong, and that I should force you to agree with me? You can say, "Well he didn't say that." But how do you know? You can say, "He didn't tell me that." I can say, "You aren't listening." Seriously, how can you argue against me? You can't. The Holy Spirit becomes a cheap trump card for you to throw on the table when you can't actually argue using Scripture. That is taking his name in vain, and I am very uncomfortable with it. I may well be wrong and you right on this issue, but the Holy Spirit did not show you that. So let's back off those claims and be more careful about invoking the Holy Spirit.

1. I thought you present the arguments based on the teachings from the Holy Spirit dwelling in you! You and I may not present the opinions based on the teachings from HS all the time, but the conclusions that we make must come from the Holy Spirit. Our thoughts may be contaminated with our own human thoughts often, but HS drives us to be clear minded, so that we may become very clear in discerning many things.
Therefore let's read this:

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Do you obey this teaching?

Did Jesus ask us to violate the 3rd commandment?

All of my presentations owe greatly to the Holy Spirit, but they may contain human thoughts too. However, the HS works continuously and lead me to the conclusions.

For example, as for Mark's longer ending, it is the part of the Bible, so is the Pericope Adulturae, Acts 8:37 is clearly the part of the Bible, John 1:18 the Only Begotten Son is correct and Only Begotten God is wrong,
John 14:14, ask anything in my name is correct, ask me anything in my name ( MV) is wrong.

Can you not have any conclusion from the Holy Spirit?

Then you have to read this:

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Does your "holy spirit" keep silence? Strange !

Do you live this life?

1 Cor 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


Are you led by the Spirit of God?


Ro 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Even in the urgent moments, don't we have to follow the Holy Spirit?

Luke 12:12
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

Are you following the Holy Spirit? Is Jesus teaching how to violate the 3rd commandment?

 

[Eliyahu]

I have heard the same thing from heretics too.

Did God give you a brain to think with and use or is that not valid?

Read the above post.

Even the use of the brain belongs to the Holy Spirit. The brain was misused before the salvation, but we can use it properly after we follow the Holy Spirit.

Even the Heretics say the same things, therefore should we not follow the Holy Spirit?

The true obedience can be compared to the Bible teachings, not to the Textual Criticism.

If you discern the teachings and arguments based on the Bible, you can find which one is correct, which one is Heretics. Don't bring the Textual Criticism, which comes from the erroneous human beings. Bible has all the answers for the Bible discussions and translation issues.

Ro 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

( Are you led by the Spirit of God? If not, you are not the adopted son of God !)

 

[Askjo]

For example, as for Mark's longer ending, it is the part of the Bible, so is the Pericope Adulturae, Acts 8:37 is clearly the part of the Bible, John 1:18 the Only Begotten Son is correct and Only Begotten God is wrong,
John 14:14, ask anything in my name is correct, ask me anything in my name ( MV) is wrong.

Eliyahu, preach it !! Amen !!

 

[Keith M]

John 14:14, ask anything in my name is correct, ask me anything in my name (MV) is wrong.
- Eliyahu as quoted by Askjo

"Ask anything in My name" gives no indication to whom we should direct our petitions. However, "Ask Me anything in My name" tells us exactly to whom we should direct our petitions. If we simpley "ask" we could be asking the wind, the rain or a rock for something. This is yet another example of someone supporting the KJV reading simply because it is the KJV reading. Eliyahu becomes his own authority when he declares modern Bible translations are wrong if they include the word "me."

 

[Pastor Larry]

I thought you present the arguments based on the teachings from the Holy Spirit dwelling in you!

You thought wrong when it comes to textual criticism. The Holy Spirit regenerates the mind to understand Scripture. He does not give specific teaching that is not in Scripture.

Our thoughts may be contaminated with our own human thoughts often

I don't think you grasp just how serious this is/

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the HolySpirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This was given to the apostles as a preauthentication of the NT. Remember they were the ones to whom Jesus said something.

Do you obey this teaching?

There's nothing there to obey. It is a statement of fact. Not a command. And it was given to a particular group of people, not us. and it was said about the NT, not about textual criticism.

Did Jesus ask us to violate the 3rd commandment?

Of course not.

All of my presentations owe greatly to the Holy Spirit, but they may contain human thoughts too. However, the HS works continuously and lead me to the conclusions.

This is far more than you should be willing to say.

For example, as for Mark's longer ending, it is the part of the Bible, so is the Pericope Adulturae, Acts 8:37 is clearly the part of the Bible, John 1:18 the Only Begotten Son is correct and Only Begotten God is wrong,
John 14:14, ask anything in my name is correct, ask me anything in my name ( MV) is wrong.

Where did the Holy Spirit say this?

Can you not have any conclusion from the Holy Spirit?

Yes, provided it is from what the HOly Spirit actually said.

Then you have to read this:

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

That is dealing with the indwelling Spirit of salvation.

Does your "holy spirit" keep silence?

No.

Do you live this life?

1 Cor 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Yes, again that deals with salvation.

Are you led by the Spirit of God?


Ro 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God

Yes, again that deals with salvation. "His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God."

Even in the urgent moments, don't we have to follow the Holy Spirit?

Yes, and we do that by following the Word.

Luke 12:12
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

This is to apostles in persecution, not to people in an internet forum.

Are you following the Holy Spirit?

Yes, I think so.

Is Jesus teaching how to violate the 3rd commandment?

No of course not.

As you can tell, you didn't say anything of substance here, and very little of what you said was actually true. That is significant, and getting Askjo to give you an "Amen" isn't a sign of good things.

 

[Eliyahu]

You thought wrong when it comes to textual criticism. The Holy Spirit regenerates the mind to understand Scripture. He does not give specific teaching that is not in Scripture.

I don't think you grasp just how serious this is/

This was given to the apostles as a preauthentication of the NT. Remember they were the ones to whom Jesus said something.

There's nothing there to obey. It is a statement of fact. Not a command. And it was given to a particular group of people, not us. and it was said about the NT, not about textual criticism.

Of course not.

This is far more than you should be willing to say.

Where did the Holy Spirit say this?

Yes, provided it is from what the HOly Spirit actually said.

That is dealing with the indwelling Spirit of salvation.

No.

Yes, again that deals with salvation.

Yes, again that deals with salvation. "His Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God."

Yes, and we do that by following the Word.

This is to apostles in persecution, not to people in an internet forum.

Yes, I think so.

No of course not.

As you can tell, you didn't say anything of substance here, and very little of what you said was actually true. That is significant, and getting Askjo to give you an "Amen" isn't a sign of good things.

Answering one by one without the previous posts would not give the better information, and therefore I will give you an integrated answer to you.

In general, I have noticed a great difference in understanding and following the Holy Spirit, between your way and my way.

Your obedience to the Holy Spirit is limited to the Salvation only. That's is a big problem.
The whole Bible teaching is that we should follow the Holy Spirit in every bit of our lives.

Let's read Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

I hope you wouldn't argue that the Spirit here is different from the Holy Spirit. Here, we learn that we should follow the Spirit in the daily life.

If I have not the guidance from the Holy Spirit, I should have not claimed the conclusions that I reached on Mark 16, John 8, John 1:18, John 14:14, Acts 8:37, Johannine Comma, 1 Tim 3:16, Ephe 3:9, Dan 3:25, Dan 9:26, Isaiah 53:10, Mark 2:26.

The Holy Spirit teaches me and reveals the interpretation for the verses to me. He sometimes rebukes me and corrects my wrongdoings, and guides me in my daily life.

The work and ministry of HS is not limited to the Salvation.

The teachings in Luke 1212 does apply to the Believers today, not only to the Disciples.

Luke 12:12
11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: 12 For the Holy Spirit shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

If you limit the application of the Bible teachings to the disciples and do not apply them to your life, then you won't get the full benefit of the Words of God.

Often I have noticed many believers depart from the Holy Spirit after the Salvation, then they follow the human thoughts and human traditions, etc. That is not right.

That's why Jesus told us again this:

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the HolySpirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


The Holy Spirit works continuously in the hearts of the Believers.

Departing the Holy Spirit and following the human Textual Criticism means the quenching of the Holy Spirit, which we should avoid.

Of course there is a great difference between the Spiritual Inspiration for the Autographs and that for the Translations, in the degree and in depth, and in the accuracy, but the basic principle is that all must follow the guidance by the Holy Spirit, not the human thoughts or human textual criticism.

The human thoughts and contamination can be minimized and reduced by obeying God in their daily lives, and we can sharpen our beliefs by reading the Bible continuously. The Bible is the Words of God, and it has the power to correct many things and to educate us.

2 Tim 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

 

[Pastor Larry]

In general, I have noticed a great difference in understanding and following the Holy Spirit, between your way and my way.

You have yet to show that your way is the way of the Holy Spirit. When you show me that, then we can move forward. You saying, “The Holy Spirit taught me this” is not convincing to me. You are going to have to use something the Holy Spirit actually said.

Your obedience to the Holy Spirit is limited to the Salvation only. That's is a big problem.

I think the bigger problem is you. I never said that obedience to the Holy Spirit is in salvation only. You can’t even read my words that were written a little while ago. How can we trust you with words that were written thousands of years ago?

The whole Bible teaching is that we should follow the Holy Spirit in every bit of our lives.

I agree. I never said anything differently.

If I have not the guidance from the Holy Spirit, I should have not claimed the conclusions that I reached on Mark 16, John 8, John 1:18, John 14:14, Acts 8:37, Johannine Comma, 1 Tim 3:16, Ephe 3:9, Dan 3:25, Dan 9:26, Isaiah 53:10, Mark 2:26.

Yes, you are correct. You should not have claimed that because you do not have guidance from the Spirit on that matter.

The Holy Spirit teaches me and reveals the interpretation for the verses to me.

Can you show any biblical evidence for this kind of teaching applying to textual criticism? That is the starting place. You actually have to show something the Holy Spirit said.

He sometimes rebukes me and corrects my wrongdoings, and guides me in my daily life.

Yes, he does this through the Word.

The work and ministry of HS is not limited to the Salvation.

Yes.

The teachings in Luke 1212 does apply to the Believers today, not only to the Disciples.

Probably not. But when you say something that is contrary to Scripture, or when you claim the Spirit for something the Spirit didn’t say, you are not being led by the Spirit. We know what the Spirit says by what he said in the word.

If you limit the application of the Bible teachings to the disciples and do not apply them to your life, then you won't get the full benefit of the Words of God.

If you take words meant for one group and apply them to another, you won’t get the benefit of God’s word anyway. If the words weren’t written to apply to you, then you can’t claim them.

Often I have noticed many believers depart from the Holy Spirit after the Salvation

This is impossible.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the HolySpirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

But the problem is that Jesus didn’t say anything to you for the Spirit to bring to your remembrance. This is about the NT. The apostles would later be reminded by the Spirit of the teachings of Jesus and write them down for us.

The Holy Spirit works continuously in the hearts of the Believers.

Yes of course.

Departing the Holy Spirit and following the human Textual Criticism means the quenching of the Holy Spirit, which we should avoid.

Show where the Holy Spirit says this. Your word is not convincing. Your own brand of textual criticism is just like everyone else’s. It is conclusions based on evidence. It isn’t Spirit revealed.

The human thoughts and contamination can be minimized and reduced by obeying God in their daily lives, and we can sharpen our beliefs by reading the Bible continuously. The Bible is the Words of God, and it has the power to correct many things and to educate us.

Yes indeed. Now, if you will listen to what the Bible says about textual criticism, you will be well on the way to working through this issue.

Reading what you are saying scares me because I don’t think you even understand the issues. You are claiming the Spirit’s revelation for something the Spirit didn’t say. That’s dangerous.

 

[Keith M]

Eliyahu, preach it !! Amen !!

Eliyahu, you now have the dubious distinction of receiving an Amen from Askjo! Congratulations!

 

[gb93433]

Even the use of the brain belongs to the Holy Spirit.

I have seen evidence of some giving their brains to Satan. Just read Romans 1

Even the Heretics say the same things, therefore should we not follow the Holy Spirit?

In most cases it is an excuse for forging ahead by telling themselves things they want to hear until they believe the lies they told themselves.

The true obedience can be compared to the Bible teachings, not to the Textual Criticism.

That has nothing to do with textual criticism

Bible has all the answers for the Bible discussions and translation issues.

Could you point me to one case where Jesus ever dealt with the issue?

Non-Christians do textual criticism all the time and not just with the Bible. How do they have the Holy Spirit? Does that make them wrong?

Do you see any evidence that Jesus ever did textual criticism?

 

[Eliyahu]

PastorLarry and gb93433,

There seems to be a huge difference between your ways of lives and my way of life.

Let me ask you some simple questions first.

Do you pray and ask God for your daily needs?

Have you got any answers from God, for your prayers and for your requests ?

If yes, how can you say, you have got the answer from God?


This is very much basic questions which can help us to narrow the gap between your understanding and mine.

 

[Pastor Larry]

There seems to be a huge difference between your ways of lives and my way of life.

I don't know about that. There is a big difference in the way that we treat Scripture for sure.

Do you pray and ask God for your daily needs?

Yes.

Have you got any answers from God, for your prayers and for your requests ?

Yes

If yes, how can you say, you have got the answer from God?

Not sure what your question is here. God is the only one who answers prayer. He uses a variety of means to do it. He doesn't answer them all. But he does answer some.

I don't think these answers will help much. At the end of the day, you still don't have any Scripture supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit tells you which textual variant to choose, and that is the issue here.

 

[Eliyahu]

I don't know about that. There is a big difference in the way that we treat Scripture for sure.

Yes.

Yes

Not sure what your question is here. God is the only one who answers prayer. He uses a variety of means to do it. He doesn't answer them all. But he does answer some.

I don't think these answers will help much. At the end of the day, you still don't have any Scripture supporting the idea that the Holy Spirit tells you which textual variant to choose, and that is the issue here.

Have you ever prayed God for the interpretation of the Bible, for the choice of the variances among the texts?

 

[EdSutton]

Not sure what your question is here. God is the only one who answers prayer. He uses a variety of means to do it. He doesn't answer them all. But he does answer some.

I'm gonna disagree on the emphasized part. I fully believe that God answers all prayer.

However, "No!", "Some Part!", "Maybe, if...!" and "Later!" are every bit as much valid answers as is "Yes!" even though any of those may not be what you and/or I are really wanting to hear.

Ed