What is your view on infants who die? Do they go to be with the Lord and what do you justify your position with?
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Infants in Heaven
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
Tom Butler
New Member
Yes, infants go into the presence of God.
It was David, who, after his child by Bathsheba died, said "I shall go to where he is, but he shall not return to me." (II Sam 12:23)
And Jesus said "I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18)
Infants are born with a sinful nature, but have not yet acted on that nature, thus have no sin that brings condemnation.
I heard it put this way: They are not saved, but they are safe.
It was David, who, after his child by Bathsheba died, said "I shall go to where he is, but he shall not return to me." (II Sam 12:23)
And Jesus said "I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matt 18)
Infants are born with a sinful nature, but have not yet acted on that nature, thus have no sin that brings condemnation.
I heard it put this way: They are not saved, but they are safe.
Do all infants go into the presence of God and where does it suggest such?
How does this verse apply to the subject at hand?
And scripture tells us this where?
And how does that line of thought come about in scripture?
* Note~ Please no one assume my position just because I have asked some questions. It is not an indicator.
I agree with Tom Butler. The answer is in 2 Samuel 12:21-23.
King David was taking comfort in an hour of intense personal grief by believing that he and his infant son would be reunited someday. When? He said not here on this earth, but where the baby "was".
Magnetic Poles
New Member
So here is your problem then. This makes TWO ways to get to heaven.
1. Faith in Christ
2. Die while an infant
Yet the Bible clearly says the only way is through Christ
1. Faith in Christ
2. Die while an infant
Yet the Bible clearly says the only way is through Christ
Nope, I have no problem in this area nor am I creating two different ways to get to heaven. Nor am I saying that there is another way other than Christ and His shed blood.
It's my opinion that people who believe that infants burn in hell for eternity are the ones with a problem of not understanding the scriptures.
I believe that the atoning blood of Jesus Christ who died for the sins of the whole world can cover the sin nature of those who do not have the capacity to believe or disbelieve. And that would be babies, toddlers, and those born with a profound mental retardation.
I realize there are those who will think me eligible for hell, myself, for believing this, but I don't have to please anybody here. Only God.
There are only two places that one goes when one dies. Heaven or hell.
There is only way to be enter Heaven. And that is to be covered by the shed blood of Jesus. The supernatural power of the blood of Jesus and the mercy of God are most definitely present, in my opinion, at the death of babies and those who are born too retarded to understand "belief".
My only source is 2 Samuel 12:21-23 and 1 John 2:2. Like King David took comfort in knowing where his son was, I take great comfort in these scriptures.
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What happens here is that there are some who want to use this issue to justify positions like Dallas Willard holds that some adults may believe in God while not knowing who Christ is and will be saved.
In this verse Paul is saying that when he realized that he sinned against God, he died spiritually... But before that he was alive spiritually.
Romans 7:9
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
This is what happens to all of us.
When we are born, we are innocent because we haven't recognized what sin is. When we realize what sin is, and that sin seperates us from God, we die spiritually, And then need to be born again.
Romans 7:9
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
This is what happens to all of us.
When we are born, we are innocent because we haven't recognized what sin is. When we realize what sin is, and that sin seperates us from God, we die spiritually, And then need to be born again.
They find "rest" in the Lord, not torment.
Job 3
11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest.
HankD
12 Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest.
HankD
Magnetic Poles
New Member
So, let me throw out a question, not to stir up flame wars, but to honestly get folks perspective. I won't say what I think yet. If infants DO go to heaven, wouldn't abortion be a good thing, since the "child" goes straight to heaven rather than risk eternity in hell? If they grow up, are they no likely to suffer eternal damnation and torture; yet if aborted end up in heaven? How do you reconcile this?
First ripping unborn children apart limb by limb is horrendous and is never a good thing. Second, God told men to be fruitful and multiply and no where in scripture does God suggest that all children should be murdered so they will go to heaven. Good Grief
I don't reconcile it.MP said:
Your "if-then" statement is not logical and can't be reconciled. You are trying to reconcile two issues that have nothing to do with each other and you are trying to make the second part acceptable by forcing it under the umbrella of the first part.
It would be like saying, "If I am a Christian with an incurable disease and am going to heaven, then why don't I just commit suicide today and go straight to heaven and not suffer any pain here on earth?"
Or "If eating meat is acceptable Biblically and there is no Biblical reason why I should be a vegetarian, then I'll just go and steal my neighbor's cow, kill it, and we'll have barbecue tonight."
Just because the two issues involve the death of an infant, natural death and abortion, doesn't mean that one justifies the other.
Abortion cannot be a good thing or justified because infants go to heaven.
Infants and the aborted preborn go to heaven IN SPITE OF the fact that abortion is an abomination before God.
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No problem with this at all. There is only one way to go to Heaven...be deemed "not guilty" by God through our advocate Jesus Christ.
Sin is never a good thing. Now God uses sin even for His glory, and the eternal destination of the aborted is a prime example of this. The other model would have the infants spending eternity in Hell. Which one exudes God's character?
Marcia
Active Member
Actually, we are saved by grace through faith. Since infants cannot have faith, as far as we know, they are saved by God's grace.
I don't think the example of David's child is necessarily a good one since that does not tell us that all infants go to heaven. I think it's an indicator but not evidence for all infants.
I think using the principles of salvation, which is God's grace (and it His grace that anyone believes), we can say the infants are saved by God's grace, but there is no way to support this over other positions, imo. It's just one view.
I agree with this to an extent, but the fact is babies prior to the point Paul speaks of in Romans 7, they need no "saving" so to speak since they are not separated from God at that point. Salvation by grace through faith is for those spiritually dead (separated)
True, but babies still need the grace and blood of Christ to be delivered from the corrupted physical body and sin nature, else they would not share in the resurrection.
First off, the Bible doesn't state that babies go to heaven. We have David who was assured that his own son would go to heaven, absolutely. Does that make it a fact? I don't think so - but maybe he did know something we don't.
God chose to not tell us for a fact that a baby or young child will go to heaven when they die BUT, we do know that God is just and merciful. IF a child goes to hell, it is for the right reason. God knows their hearts, their minds, their souls and we don't. If He chooses to bring them to heaven, it is because of His grace and mercy - and because of the blood of Jesus.
To me, this is another case of where the doctrine of grace comes in. I do not believe that we are saved because of anything we do but it is fully God. IF we say that we must do something to be saved, and that God cannot go against man's will, then by logic, babies should go to hell because they did not choose God. Unless one feels that God does give them a choice in some way, I don't know. But for one who believes that it is God who makes the choice and we respond to that choice, then I can absolutely see babies going to heaven because it is God's doing, not ours.
God chose to not tell us for a fact that a baby or young child will go to heaven when they die BUT, we do know that God is just and merciful. IF a child goes to hell, it is for the right reason. God knows their hearts, their minds, their souls and we don't. If He chooses to bring them to heaven, it is because of His grace and mercy - and because of the blood of Jesus.
To me, this is another case of where the doctrine of grace comes in. I do not believe that we are saved because of anything we do but it is fully God. IF we say that we must do something to be saved, and that God cannot go against man's will, then by logic, babies should go to hell because they did not choose God. Unless one feels that God does give them a choice in some way, I don't know. But for one who believes that it is God who makes the choice and we respond to that choice, then I can absolutely see babies going to heaven because it is God's doing, not ours.
Marcia
Active Member
I disagree that babies are not spiritually separated from God. All of us are born spiritually dead and separated from God just by virtue of the sin nature.