Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.

[Tom Butler]

First of all, it's not my place to condemn anybody.


Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

The hardening of one's heart is a judicial action on God's part because they rejected the light He revealed.

Can you answer my question? Which call did Jesus give Israel? General or effectual?

All of us who are believers rejected the revealed light until the moment we believed. What is the difference between us whom God saved and did not harden, and those whom he did harden and judicially declared unsavable?

I'm also wondering why, to non-Cals, God only hardens hearts, but never softens them because that would be a violation of free will.

Oh, about you question. Jesus call to all Israel to repent was a general call. It is similar to Paul's call to repentance of those who heard him preach on Mars Hill. The effectual call went out to individuals, whom the Bible says believed.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So you are saying that Jesus didn't go to the nation of Israel, only individuals?

Nope, not saying that at all.

 

[Darrenss1]

The passage says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me" (vs37). That is, everyone the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son. The Father gives, they come (Jn 17:1-3). The order there is very important. Your right, Calvinism makes a lot out of this verse. That is because these verses prove three out of the five points of Calvinism (UIP).

The Father gives new believers to the Son, the new christian comes to the Son and is raised up on the last day. Exactly!!

Darren

 

[Pastor Larry]

In a word no. How can God love someone if He had no intention of saving them? God cannot say He would love or desire to save Rob, Jack, Mary, Sarah..etc if He had no intentions to save them at any time.

Who says? This is a clear place where we see a difference in authority. We say, "The Bible says it, therefore it is true." You disagree because it doesn't fit your conceptiosn of what it means to be God.

But you are no better off because in your scheme, God loves people that he has no intention of saving because he saves only believers. He has no intention of saving those who do not believe.

The responsibility I refer to infers freedom of choice, to accept or reject. Irrestible grace nullifies that I'm sure.

Well, no it doesn't. But you were talking about unconditional election. You said that unconditional election and man's responsibility cannot coexist. You have not given a reason for that. Can you please explain it? I, as a Calvinist, believe they do coexist precisely because Scripture teaches both. Why do you disagree?

 

[Martin]

Calvinism is ALONE in this mystery because calvinism simply projects their interpretation onto non calvinists in their "man centred", "synergism"....etc objections. A free gift offered in love requires the recipient to receive it, bottom line.

==Simple denial does not change the fact that all Christians, to some degree, struggle with this issue. You can deny it, you can claim they don't, you can push it off on Calvinism, but that does not change anything. If God is all mighty and all loving then why does He not save everyone? You can't answer that question 100% and neither can I or anyone else.

 

[Martin]

The Father gives new believers to the Son, the new christian comes to the Son and is raised up on the last day. Exactly!!

==You are getting the cart before the horse again. The Scripture does not say that "The Father gives new believers to the Son". The passage says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me". Notice that the giving occurs before the coming. A person cannot become a new believer unless they have been given to the Son by the Father (Jn 17:1-3).

 

[Amy.G]

==Simple denial does not change the fact that all Christians, to some degree, struggle with this issue. You can deny it, you can claim they don't, you can push it off on Calvinism, but that does not change anything. If God is all mighty and all loving then why does He not save everyone? You can't answer that question 100% and neither can I or anyone else.

Not true.

Love cannot be reciprocated unless it is of one's own free will. That is why God gives all a choice.

 

[Martin]

Who says? This is a clear place where we see a difference in authority. We say, "The Bible says it, therefore it is true." You disagree because it doesn't fit your conceptiosn of what it means to be God.

==BINGO! I think you just hit the nail on the head in this debate. One side is trying to make everything fit into their understanding while the other side is saying, "The Bible says it, therefore it is true.". I find this distinction to be true here and with friends of mine who try to argue against election.

 

[Amy.G]

Nope, not saying that at all.

Then what are you saying? Did Jesus offer salvation to Israel or only individuals? Did He come to the Jews or just individuals?

And if He did offer salvation to Israel/the Jews, was it a general call or an effectual call?

 

[Martin]

Not true.

Love cannot be reciprocated unless it is of one's own free will. That is why God gives all a choice.

==Yes, all have a choice. I have never denied that nor do other Calvinists. However man's choice is not free. All men are naturally enslaved to sin (Eph 2:1-3, Jn 8:33-36, Rom 6:20-23). All mankind naturally rejects Christ (Rom 3:10-12). It is only when God draws a person to Chirst that they can/will come to Christ in faith (Jn 6:44). Otherwise they will willfully continue in their sin and disobedience.

EDIT TO ADD

In the interest of continuity I must request a reply to THIS post. I know these long threads get confusing (at least they do for me) and it is easy to forget who has replied to who (etc). I think it makes the conversation more productive if replies are not left hanging.

 

[Darrenss1]

==You are getting the cart before the horse again. The Scripture does not say that "The Father gives new believers to the Son". The passage says, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me". Notice that the giving occurs before the coming. A person cannot become a new believer unless they have been given to the Son by the Father (Jn 17:1-3).

Yet those given to the Son are raised up on the last day, don't drop that part off the quote. Who is raised up believers or non believers?

v40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Speaking of the horse and the cart....

Darren

 

[Martin]

Yet those given to the Son are raised up on the last day, don't drop that part off the quote. Who is raised up believers or non believers?

==I am at a loss to understand this turn in the discussion. After all, I made the point to you (HERE) that all who the Father gives to the Son will be raised up on the last day.

v40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Speaking of the horse and the cart....

==I'm not sure why you think that changes anything I have said? Do you really think that verse 40 changes the order in 37?

I'm confused by your reply.

 

[Amy.G]

==Yes, all have a choice. I have never denied that nor do other Calvinists. However man's choice is not free. All men are naturally enslaved to sin (Eph 2:1-3, Jn 8:33-36, Rom 6:20-23). All mankind naturally rejects Christ (Rom 3:10-12). It is only when God draws a person to Chirst that they can/will come to Christ in faith (Jn 6:44). Otherwise they will willfully continue in their sin and disobedience.

EDIT TO ADD

In the interest of continuity I must request a reply to THIS post. I know these long threads get confusing for me and it is easy to forget who has replied to who (etc). I think it makes the conversation more productive if replies are not left hanging.

No one denies that God must draw man to Himself. But that God chooses some to salvation and "passes over" others (doesn't draw them) is not Biblical. Christ was lifted up to draw ALL men to Him. He said so Himself.

God desires all to love Him. Do you agree?

There cannot be love without the choice to do so. Those poor souls whom God "passes over" have no choice to love Him. They can only reject Him. (according to Calvinism)
Their obedience to the gospel is completely in God's hands right? If God chooses to leave them in their blindness and sin, they have no choice but to stay there. No choice equals no responsibility. The Bible is clear that all men are responsible because God has revealed Himself to ALL men. But if some cannot respond to God's call, they cannot be held responsible for rejecting Him. And don't tell me that God can do whatever He pleases because He's sovereign. He cannot be unjust because it would violate His very nature.

 

[Darrenss1]

==I'm not sure why you think that changes anything I have said? Do you really think that verse 40 changes the order in 37?

I'm confused by your reply.

Very simple, you are trying to read v44 back into v37. All = ALL those unbelievers being drawn.

"ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

v44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The text no where says ALL whom are drawn will be saved and raised up. Those raised up were believers, bottom line, all believers were drawn and were given and came to the Son from the Father and thus they were raised up on the last day by the Son; all the believers the Father gave to the Son.

Darren

 

[Martin]

No one denies that God must draw man to Himself. But that God chooses some to salvation and "passes over" others (doesn't draw them) is not Biblical.

==But Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day" (vs44). The last part there is the problem for your statement. Those who are drawn are raised up on the last day (ie...they are saved - vss 37,40). So you may have accidently backed into universalism here. Clearly universalism is false. Therefore, since we know all are not saved, all are not drawn.

Christ was lifted up to draw ALL men to Him. He said so Himself.

==John 12:32 is not talking about the same type of drawing as John 6:44. John 6:44 is a saving drawing. We know this because in John 6:44 those who are drawn are raised. Here in John 12:32, Jesus has been sought out by some Greeks (vss 20-26). He takes that event to prophecy about His coming death (vss 27-33). When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, He opened the door of salvation to all men. Greeks, Jews, Romans, it did not matter. Salvation is open to everyone who would repent and believe.

God desires all to love Him. Do you agree?

==Scriptural support?

There cannot be love without the choice to do so.

==Scriptural support?

Those poor souls whom God "passes over" have no choice to love Him. They can only reject Him.

==Two problems with that.

1. All people, you and me included, naturally go our own way (Is 53:6, Rom 1:18-32, Eph 2:1-3, etc). Naturally no man or woman seeks after the true God (Rom 3:10-12). The only reason ANYONE is saved is because God draws that person to Himself in a saving way (Jn 6:44). Justice says that 100% of us should get the hell we deserve, grace says we do not get what we deserve. God is under no obligation to show equal amounts of grace to each person. Why? Because nobody deserves it (Rom 3:23, 6:23).

2. Your statement assumes that man can create a better way than God. That is clearly false and unBiblical. God's ways and plans are perfect. That I can't/don't understand the whys (etc) does not change that. I know that whatever God does is right and just. Therefore I am happy with it. I trust God and I trust His plans and will. I am not afraid of His Divine Sovereignty in salvation.

Amn, why does election threaten you?

Their obedience to the gospel is completely in God's hands right? If God chooses to leave them in their blindness and sin, they have no choice but to stay there. No choice equals no responsibility.

==That is unBiblical. They do have a choice and they naturally choose to stay in sin and unbelief. Your statement assumes that man can naturally choose something else. The Bible says such is impossible (Rom 3:10-12, Is 64:6). Man only comes to Christ when God draws him in a saving way (Jn 6:44). Otherwise, it just does not happen.

The Bible is clear that all men are responsible because God has revealed Himself to ALL men. But if some cannot respond to God's call

==It is not that "some cannot respond" it is that "ALL cannot respond". A person can only respond when draw by the Father (Jn 6:44). That is what Jesus said when He said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day". You need to stop assuming that man naturally desires or seeks after God, because they don't (Rom 3:10-12, etc).

And don't tell me that God can do whatever He pleases because He's sovereign. He cannot be unjust because it would violate His very nature.

==God cannot be unjust, you are correct. However you forget that God would be 100% just in condemning all men to hell without the offer of mercy. There is no law that says God must show the same mercy to each person. He shows mercy on whom He wills. Your objections are not new. After all, the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, answered your objections in Romans 9:19-24.

Btw it is the Scriptures that, "whatever the Lord pleases, He does" (Ps 135:6, Is 46:10).

 

[Darrenss1]

No one denies that God must draw man to Himself. But that God chooses some to salvation and "passes over" others (doesn't draw them) is not Biblical. Christ was lifted up to draw ALL men to Him. He said so Himself.

God desires all to love Him. Do you agree?

There cannot be love without the choice to do so. Those poor souls whom God "passes over" have no choice to love Him. They can only reject Him. (according to Calvinism)
Their obedience to the gospel is completely in God's hands right? If God chooses to leave them in their blindness and sin, they have no choice but to stay there. No choice equals no responsibility. The Bible is clear that all men are responsible because God has revealed Himself to ALL men. But if some cannot respond to God's call, they cannot be held responsible for rejecting Him. And don't tell me that God can do whatever He pleases because He's sovereign. He cannot be unjust because it would violate His very nature.

Exactly right!! The non elect have no responsibility towards the gospel or God whatsoever because God did not choose them. Whether that be your mother, father, brother or sister if they are elect God loves them if not God does not love them and they will be passed over and cast into the lake of fire. Is that the love of God that we read about in the bible?

Darren

 

[Martin]

The text no where says ALL whom are drawn will be saved and raised up.

==Yes it does.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44)

Who is raised up? The one who is drawn.

Is there doubt about this? No, Jesus said that He "will" raise up the one who is drawn.

I am not reading John 6:44 back into John 6:37. However both passages make the same basic point. In John 6:37 those who are given come and are raised. In John 6:44 those who are drawn are raised.

Those raised up were believers, bottom line, all believers were drawn

==Believers were drawn? Are you asserting that the Father draws believers to Jesus? What about non-believers? If non-believers are not drawn how can they become believers?

and were given and came to the Son from the Father and thus they were raised up on the last day by the Son; all the believers the Father gave to the Son.

==Are you trying to say that some believers were not given to the Son by the Father?

:BangHead:

 

[Darrenss1]

==That is unBiblical. They do have a choice and they naturally choose to stay in sin and unbelief. Your statement assumes that man can naturally choose something else. The Bible says such is impossible (Rom 3:10-12, Is 64:6). Man only comes to Christ when God draws him in a saving way (Jn 6:44). Otherwise, it just does not happen.

The problem is Martin you have no way to prove against the person really is actually being drawn by the Father to believe and is refusing to agree/accept/choose to turn to God. I don't care who they are, no one can prove the reason why people aren't believing in Christ. The bible makes statements, what man claims ultimate knowledge to apply it individually?? God is seeking to save, everyone and anyone included; many people resist God for whatever reason, at that stage they are not totally depraved as God is drawing them to Christ. The fact is no one is regenerated until AFTER they are saved, being drawn bibically is when God uses revelation, the Word of God, the gospel, the Holy Spirit in conviction..etc to lead them to Christ. What they do with Christ is up to them.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

==Yes it does.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day" (Jn 6:44)

Who is raised up? The one who is drawn.

v40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

The ones raised up were believers not unbelievers. The process of being drawn ends upon believing. If you want to say Jesus raised up unbelievers then that is your choice I can't find it anyway in the Word of God.

Darren

 

[Amy.G]

In John 6 Jesus is making it clear that He and the Father are one and the same. No one can come to the Son without being drawn by the Father.

Who is it that comes to the Son?

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Since Jesus is speaking to Jews, He is referring to the scriptures and the prophets. Those who believed the prophets, would come to Jesus because they had learned who the Messiah would be.

For us (gentiles), we come to the Son because of the scriptures as well and because God has revealed Himself in the creation (Rom. 1).

Those that the Father gives Jesus are the ones who have "heard" and "learned" from Him (the Father). This is because the scriptures point to Jesus as the Messiah. One only has to believe the word of God and God the Father will give them to the Son.