Libertarian Free Will is an Extra-Biblical Commitment

[MB]

I am saying that men need to repent and submit to the righteousness of God, but this can only occur through, and is an inevitable result of, the effectual work of the Holy Spirit on the heart of a natural person dead in trespasses and sins. The Holy Spirit regenerates one, raises him to spiritual life, and gives him a heart of flesh.

I don't see where this comes from in scripture. Could you show this position from scripture?

No. The elect start out unjustified. They become justified when the Holy Spirit regenerates them and they respond inevitably in repentance and faith.

If scriptures say we are chosen in Him then how could we have been chosen before we are justified. We aren't in Christ until we are Justified. It only makes perfect sense that we are only considered elect In Him.

If we were chosen before Salvation there would be no need for Salvation. We would be saved automatically whether we wanted to be or not.

True. It is regeneration, but not justification. However, regeneration is effectual to repentance and faith, and then justification.

I thought you just said;

"They become justified when the Holy Spirit regenerates them"

Does not kosmos have different applications and ranges in different contexts?

It can also mean "Jew and Gentile alike."
It can mean "every nation."
It can mean the socio-political system.
It can mean the physical earth.
It can mean only the unregenerate.

Context is king.

Who are redeemed?:
I posit that "the whole world" means Jew and Gentile alike in every nation. Propitiation means satisfaction. If "whole world" means every individual person without exception, then God's justice has been satisfied on behalf of every individual, and God would have no just reason to send anyone to hell.

I agree context is King with out it I might be convinced of your position. The verse in question says definitively whole world not parts of the world to get the meaning you just described you would have to completely rewrite the complete verse.

We do not have the original manuscripts. I trust that the way the wording is in the vast majority of manuscripts reflects the reading of the original. Acts 13:48 is not the only passage that shows man's depravity and God's effectual calling. It's ridiculous when someone has to argue the text based upon one's perceived notion of what the original said rather than what is accepted in the vast majority of manuscripts.

My mistake on the statement of originals.

With out the english grammar in the Greek language it was written in it would read;
Act 13:48“And the nations rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord and believed as many as were appointed to eternal life." This according to greens interlinear.
Even at that this, is still only one verse. A matter of doctrine should always be corroborated with other scriptures that say the same thing. I don't believe there are such verses this one would have to stand alone.
This is actually very little proof.

They had a "zeal for God" insomuch that they had a zeal for their own ethnicity and their perceived purity of it. The Pharisees had a zeal for their own hypocritical traditions and applications of the law. They did not have a zeal for God as He really is.

I would agree about the Pharasee's but not all are Pharasee's. Paul said they had a zeal for God

Yup. No debating that here. Sounds like any depraved individual. Now, what makes someone want the true righteousness of God?

The hearing of the gospel and the work of the Holy Spirit to convince and convict the man.

Sounds like you are saying that they are depraved and need the effectual working of the Holy Spirit for conversion. Good job. :thumbs:

No man has any desirable qualities. Yet that doesn't mean they are helpless when they hear the gospel so much so they can't respond to the prompting of the Spirit and the gospel.

True. However, it is God who makes that happen, because no one can raise himself to spiritual life and give himself a new heart. That is against his nature. Only God can do that.

No man can on his own however all he needs is the convincing of the gospel and where ever the gospel is the Spirit is there to work on the man.

There are many things we will not understand until we get to heaven.

Proverbs 21:1; John 1:12-13; Acts 16:14; Acts 13:48; Romans 8:28-34.

I am just as sure of my salvation as you are (I hope that you are). I just simply believe that my faith in the Gospel and salvation is monergistic rather than synergistic.

I know that and it has been a pleasure discussing it with you. I have been save for nearly 50 years and all this time He has looked after me and been with me through every trial. Now that's a blessing we can live with.
MB

 

[Winman]

No. The elect start out unjustified. They become justified when the Holy Spirit regenerates them and they respond inevitably in repentance and faith.

This is not what the scriptures teach. They teach that a man should repent first, and then receive the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These verses show exactly the order of events of salvation as shown in Eph 1:13. It shows they first heard the gospel and were convicted. There is not one word said about them being quickened or regenerated by the Holy Spirit. Peter then tells them to repent which means to turn from unbelief and trust in Christ. Then Peter tells them that after they repent they shall receive the Holy Ghost. And this is exactly what Ephesians 1:13 shows.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse says they trusted or believed after first hearing the gospel, and that after believeing received the Holy Ghost. And there are many other verses that show this as well.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What did these people do first? They "received" Jesus which is explained as believeing on his name at the end of the verse. And to those who received and believed on Jesus, to them God gave the "power" to become the sons of God. This power is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the power which quickens a man.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say a man is regenerated to believe. But Jesus said the dead could hear his voice, and those that hear and believe would live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The word "shall" shows that after the dead hear and then believe they will live.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The word "yet" in John 11:25 shows they will live after believeing. It also shows they were "dead" when they believed.

Your belief that a person is regenerated first steals from the primacy of the gospel and makes it secondary to God first regenerating a man. It is the gospel that saves us.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

According to you, a man cannot believe the gospel unless God first regenerates him. Therefore the power of the gospel is made void or moot for those whom God does not regenerate. But the scriptures say Jesus died for all men.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

If God regenerates a man first, then the gospel is not even necessary, the man is already quickened. This is the logical conclusion of this belief, and some like pinoybaptist have indeed said the gospel is not necessary.

Others have said Jesus only died for the elect. This is also consistent if you believe only those who were first regenerated can believe the gospel. But the scriptures say Jesus is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

In my opinion this belief of yours is absolutely unscriptural, has not one verse in the whole Bible to support it, and robs the power of the Gospel.

 

[The Archangel]

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say a man is regenerated to believe. But Jesus said the dead could hear his voice, and those that hear and believe would live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The word "shall" shows that after the dead hear and then believe they will live.

Of course...because dead men are always capable of doing for themselves. (sarcasm implied)

The reality is that dead men can't do one thing for themselves. So, while I agree that the Gospel is powerful, something must be done to make the dead alive...so that they can hear. After all, dead men don't hear.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[MB]

Of course...because dead men are always capable of doing for themselves. (sarcasm implied)

The reality is that dead men can't do one thing for themselves. So, while I agree that the Gospel is powerful, something must be done to make the dead alive...so that they can hear. After all, dead men don't hear.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Being dead spiritually is a consideration and is not actual. If we were indeed dead spiritually we would be physcially dead as well. The body can't live without the spirit. We are considered dead to God not actually dead. If we were actually dead the second death would have no meaning. The Jews used this saying to describe a person position with them they no longer have anything to do with as dead. They would say this when that person or persons were mentioned "They are dead to me" It didn't mean they were actually dead but meant they were cut off from the friendship or relation they had.
MB

 

[The Archangel]

Being dead spiritually is a consideration and is not actual. If we were indeed dead spiritually we would be physcially dead as well. The body can't live without the spirit. We are considered dead to God not actually dead. If we were actually dead the second death would have no meaning. The Jews used this saying to describe a person position with them they no longer have anything to do with as dead. They would say this when that person or persons were mentioned "They are dead to me" It didn't mean they were actually dead but meant they were cut off from the friendship or relation they had.
MB

MB,

You would be reading your prejudices into the word, then. In Greek, dead (Nekros) means dead. To my knowledge, the word is never used to mean anything else but dead.

Also, Paul and the other New Testament writers make a distinction between being physically alive and spiritually dead. Ephesians 2 makes this clear "You were dead in your trespasses and sins..."

The Greek, which is quite clear, is what is in view here. Dead is dead.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Of course...because dead men are always capable of doing for themselves. (sarcasm implied)

The reality is that dead men can't do one thing for themselves. So, while I agree that the Gospel is powerful, something must be done to make the dead alive...so that they can hear. After all, dead men don't hear.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Archangel, you cannot compare the spiritually dead with the physically dead and the scriptures show this.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Here we have the story (this is not a parable) of the rich man who died and went to hell. So we know for a fact that he was and is spiritually dead. Yet he could hear and speak to Abraham who is spiritually alive. So the Bible does not teach that the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse that can do nothing as I have seen several Calvinists argue.

And we also have the story of the young girl that Jesus raised from the dead.

Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

The scriptures here do not tell us if this young girl was saved or spiritually dead. I like to think she was saved because her parents believed in Jesus. But we do know she was physically dead. When Jesus "called" her, she heard his voice and her spirit came again, or returned to her physical body. Notice Jesus called her, it does not say he regenerated her. And it does not say Jesus pulled or drew her, it says "her spirit came again" which shows she did the returning. She responded to his call.

The scriptures teach us that the physically dead are simply those who's spirit has departed their body.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

But the Bible nowhere teaches that the spiritually dead are like a dead body or corpse. The Bible shows they can both hear, speak, and feel pain as the rich man in hell.

The scriptures also show that people can communicate with the dead although it was considered a serious sin and forbidden.

1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

So, when you say and teach that the dead can do nothing, you are in error and this does not agree with scripture.

 

[AresMan]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

What did these people do first? They "received" Jesus which is explained as believeing on his name at the end of the verse. And to those who received and believed on Jesus, to them God gave the "power" to become the sons of God. This power is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the power which quickens a man.

Look at the next verse. The tense for born...of God precedes the tense for believe. The same goes for I John 5:1.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say a man is regenerated to believe. But Jesus said the dead could hear his voice, and those that hear and believe would live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The word "shall" shows that after the dead hear and then believe they will live.

The dead hearing is not the power of the dead themselves, but in the voice of the Son of God. Also, note that it says that all those that hear shall live. Obviously, then, the same set of the dead that hear is the same set that live. Conclusively, the ones that do not live do not hear either. This is proof that the work of God is what effectuates faith in the Gospel.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

The word "yet" in John 11:25 shows they will live after believeing. It also shows they were "dead" when they believed.

The word yet is not a direct translation from the Greek. "yet shall he live" is the translation of ζησεται (zesetai) which is the future middle-deponent indicative third-person singular form of ζάω (zaw) to live.

Your belief that a person is regenerated first steals from the primacy of the gospel and makes it secondary to God first regenerating a man. It is the gospel that saves us.

Regeneration is part of the Gospel and part of salvation. Otherwise, you have to believe that salvation is synergistic rather than monergistic.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Look at this verse closely. The power of the Gospel is "to every one that believeth" τω πιστευοντι (tw pisteuonti [present active participle, dative singular] = "to the ones believing") and no one else. It also clarifies that it is to the Jew then to the Greek.

According to you, a man cannot believe the gospel unless God first regenerates him.

Yup.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe [πιστευουσιν, pisteuousin, present active participle dative plural] on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born [εγεννηθησαν, egennethesan, aorist passive indicative third-person plural], not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever [πας, pas, "all"] believeth [πιστευων, pisteuwn, present active participle nominative singular] that Jesus is the Christ is born [γεγεννηται, gegennetai, perfect passive indicative third-person singular] of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Therefore the power of the gospel is made void or moot for those whom God does not regenerate.

If God does not regenerate someone, then he is already willingly and purposefully rejecting him. For those who are saved, the Gospel has actual power, not potential power.

But the scriptures say Jesus died for all men.

1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Look at the previous verse that you posted: Romans 1:16. "All men" does not mean every individual person past-present-future without exception. If it did, then you MUST believe in universalism with this statement. How in the world could Jesus be called the "Saviour" of someone who goes to hell in his sins and unbelief in the Gospel? From what exactly did Jesus save him?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS ["Saviour"]: for ["because"] HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE from their sins.

Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have [Gentile believers], which are not of this fold [Jewish believers]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

If God regenerates a man first, then the gospel is not even necessary, the man is already quickened.

Nope. The Gospel by the word of God is what the Holy Spirit uses to quicken someone. God has both determined the end and the means.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing [cometh] by the word of God.

Here, one does not have faith until he hears. However, he cannot even hear until he receives it through the Word of God. Does everyone whose ear physically receives Scripture heed it and obey? Obviously not. The Word of God itself is effectual to the hearing, faith, and salvation of God's people, not the one dead in sins has this power.

This is the logical conclusion of this belief,

No it is not.

and some like pinoybaptist have indeed said the gospel is not necessary.

I do not know what he may have said, but he could be wrong.

Others have said Jesus only died for the elect. This is also consistent if you believe only those who were first regenerated can believe the gospel. But the scriptures say Jesus is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

See Matthew 1:21 and John 10:15-16 above (and others) as well as what I said about Romans 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10.

In my opinion this belief of yours is absolutely unscriptural, has not one verse in the whole Bible to support it, and robs the power of the Gospel.

That's your opinion (and likely results from your personal view of "fairness" and emotions), but each of us must freely and unequivocally weigh the evidence from the Scripture itself.

 

[AresMan]

Being dead spiritually is a consideration and is not actual. If we were indeed dead spiritually we would be physcially dead as well. The body can't live without the spirit. We are considered dead to God not actually dead. If we were actually dead the second death would have no meaning. The Jews used this saying to describe a person position with them they no longer have anything to do with as dead. They would say this when that person or persons were mentioned "They are dead to me" It didn't mean they were actually dead but meant they were cut off from the friendship or relation they had.

Being "dead spiritually" is not saying that the spirit is non-functional or dis-joined. "Spiritual death" is short for "dead in trespasses and sins." The spirit (the inner being of a person) is dead in sin. His nature is a slave to sin. He knows nothing but iniquity--falling short of God's glory--and purposefully and willfully sins and hates God (as He actually is).

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If the "natural man" or the "carnal mind" or "they that are in the flesh" and are not "in the Spirit" "cannot please God," "neither indeed can be [subject to the law of God]," and "can[not] know [the things of the Spirit of God]," then obviously to overcome this situation requires a special act of God on behalf of an individual. If you say that so-called "prevenient grace" overrides this condition on behalf of every person, then you render these statement moot, meaningless, and tautological.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they SHALL BE my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye SHALL KEEP my judgments, and do them.

 

[Winman]

There is so much nonsense in your answer I don't know where to begin.

John 1:12 says to those who received Jesus, "to them" gave he power. Suppose you were thirsty and I gave you water. The water has the power to keep you from dying of thirst, but it will not do you any good unless you drink it. Jesus shows this concept exactly in John 4.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Jesus offers everyone the water of life, but only those who drink it will be saved.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What? Jesus says, WE can TAKE it? Roll over in your grave John Calvin.

The dead hearing is not the power of the dead themselves, but in the voice of the Son of God. Also, note that it says that all those that hear shall live. Obviously, then, the same set of the dead that hear is the same set that live. Conclusively, the ones that do not live do not hear either. This is proof that the work of God is what effectuates faith in the Gospel.

Then how did the woman in 1 Samuel call up Samuel? Did she have the power to regenerate him so that he could hear?

The word yet is not a direct translation from the Greek. "yet shall he live" is the translation of ζησεται (zesetai) which is the future middle-deponent indicative third-person singular form of ζάω (zaw) to live.

So, you believe the word of God has errors? I believe the word of God is infallible. But even if you take out the word yet (which I would never do), it still shows that they believed while dead and says they "shall" live, which is future. Nice try, but no gold ring for you.

Look at this verse closely. The power of the Gospel is "to every one that believeth" τω πιστευοντι (tw pisteuonti [present active participle, dative singular] = "to the ones believing") and no one else. It also clarifies that it is to the Jew then to the Greek.

The power is there, but you must utilize it. It is the same as my answer above for the water of life. Jesus can give you the water of life, but you must drink it before it will save you. The gospel has the power to save you, but you must believe it first.

That is enough for now.

 

[Winman]

Being "dead spiritually" is not saying that the spirit is non-functional or dis-joined. "Spiritual death" is short for "dead in trespasses and sins." The spirit (the inner being of a person) is dead in sin. His nature is a slave to sin. He knows nothing but iniquity--falling short of God's glory--and purposefully and willfully sins and hates God (as He actually is).

Jesus said the unsaved can hunger and thirst for righteousness.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

A saved person does not hunger or thirst for righteousness, they have the righteousness of Christ imputed to them.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Jesus said that those who believe shall NEVER hunger or thirst. So those who hunger and thirst for righteouness must be the unsaved.

 

[Winman]

That's your opinion (and likely results from your personal view of "fairness" and emotions), but each of us must freely and unequivocally weigh the evidence from the Scripture itself.

Why would you ask this? Does it seem there is something unfair about your belief?

 

[MB]

Being "dead spiritually" is not saying that the spirit is non-functional or dis-joined. "Spiritual death" is short for "dead in trespasses and sins." The spirit (the inner being of a person) is dead in sin. His nature is a slave to sin. He knows nothing but iniquity--falling short of God's glory--and purposefully and willfully sins and hates God (as He actually is).

I do not believe a man hates God until he knows there is a God to hate. What is manifested with in man about God isn't brought to the surface until He hears the truth from the gospel which is why he needs to hear it. It's how he knows it is true. I can't say that I ever hated God except to say before I was saved I certainly did not want to be a Christian. I thought all Christians were hypocrites.
Just as the fool that Paul quotes from the Psalm in Roman 3 10-18. This is how the fool thought about those who worshiped God. While it is true man is a sinner and what the fool said is also true but not of Christians but of those who have rejected the free gift of Salvation. To say men hate God; I don't think that scriptrue ever says that. Maybe some men hate God but not all men. The fool in Romans three didn't say that. Once a man hears the gospel and is convicted of his sins and then rebels instead of submits then yes.
I have the misfortune to have two brothers who at times seem to hate God. It's either me they hate or God because they can't stand to hear Him even mentioned.

If the "natural man" or the "carnal mind" or "they that are in the flesh" and are not "in the Spirit" "cannot please God," "neither indeed can be [subject to the law of God]," and "can[not] know [the things of the Spirit of God]," then obviously to overcome this situation requires a special act of God on behalf of an individual. If you say that so-called "prevenient grace" overrides this condition on behalf of every person, then you render these statement moot, meaningless, and tautological.

First off I never said man had to please God. It takes God to convince men. It takes a convincing of the truth for man to see he needs to repent and submit. Man is the one who is being worked on. Not God. All that is needed is something the man can do because that Jailer certainly did and that is to seek the Kingdom. To be saved.

Did you ever hear that God isn't logical. Why would God create men to be sinners? Vessels of wrath with out recourse simply for His pleasure? I don't believe so. If God is a God of love and He is. He would never do such a unrighteous thing. It's just not in His character or desire for men.
Paul wrote;
Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

There is no place for logical thinking of the Spiritual. We are all still clay in God's hands and He can certainly do as He pleases with us but I trust that God isn't that sadistical to create men just to burn them. This is why resolve is possible for every human being. There is no Salvation with out faith, hope, and a change. I believe it happens just that way

I can't change your belief. I can only show you what I know which really is just a scratch in the surface. No one knows all the answers. I would stop questioning God with logic and think Spiritually. I do it all the time I pray about it I don't apply the science of men to figure out what God has said in His word.

MB

 

[Winman]

If the "natural man" or the "carnal mind" or "they that are in the flesh" and are not "in the Spirit" "cannot please God," "neither indeed can be [subject to the law of God]," and "can[not] know [the things of the Spirit of God]," then obviously to overcome this situation requires a special act of God on behalf of an individual. If you say that so-called "prevenient grace" overrides this condition on behalf of every person, then you render these statement moot, meaningless, and tautological.

You are referring to 1 Corinthians 2:14

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think this verse is misapplied by Calvinists. Is it really true that the unsaved natural man cannot know anything about God? I believe you can walk up to most any person on the street and most could name the Ten Commandments. And they could explain the true meaning as well. So I think observation shows that even unsaved men know and understand some things of God.

So, you have to ask, is that what this verse is really saying, or is it saying something else. Therefore you have to look at the context of the chapter.

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Paul starts off by saying he did not come speaking with eloquence or even wisdom, but simply was preaching the gospel, that Jesus died for our sins.

And Paul shows that the Lord coming to die for our sins was kept a mystery in order to thwart Satan. For if Satan and men had understood that the Lord would defeat sin through his death and resurrection, then they would not have crucified him.

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

And then Paul shows the gospel was 100% of God. The gospel did not come by the will of man, or by man's knowledge. Man of himself would never imagine the gospel as his means of salvation.

1 Cor 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

To reveal means to uncover, or make something visible which was hidden before. So through the scriptures God is revealing this mystery of the gospel which was before hidden. And it must be hidden, or else the princes of this world would not have crucified the Lord.

And then Paul shows that man could never arrive at this knowledge of his own wisdom.

1 Cor 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Notice it says received. But notice in verse 14 it says the natural man receiveth not.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now here is where Cals might disagree with non-Cals. I believe the word "receive" and "receiveth not" apply to the hearer. It is not that God imposes this knowledge on a man, it is whether the man will take heed and receive this knowledge. And this is indicated when it says "for they are foolishness unto him". It shows that the hearer refuses to receive this knowledge because he deems it foolishness. If it was speaking of God imposing this knowledge on a man, then there would be no need to say this. So it is clearly showing that the man is the one responsible for not receiving this knowledge.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So, it is not that man is unable to receive the things of God, it is that he is unwilling.

 

[Rippon]

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I think this verse is misapplied by Calvinists. Is it really true that the unsaved natural man cannot know anything about God? I believe you can walk up to most any person on the street and most could name the Ten Commandments. And they could explain the true meaning as well.

I think you are quite mistaken. I think even some Christians may have trouble reciting the ten commandments -- much less non-Christians. Ans as far as explaining the import of the Decalog --nah.

I don't think 1 Cor.2:14 is misapplied by Calvinists -- it's just that non-Cals have such trouble in facing the force of the passage.

It is not that God imposes this knowledge on a man, it is whether the man will take heed and receive this knowledge.

Why would you use the word "impose"? God intercedes on behalf of His own. He doesn't impose.

So, it is not that man is unable to receive the things of God, it is that he is unwilling.

People are unwilling and unable. They are in rebellion against God. They are corrupt. They can't understand the things of God.

 

[Carico]

It is not that God imposes this knowledge on a man, it is whether the man will take heed and receive this knowledge.

So if someone knocks you over the head and heals you of blindness, then how much of a decision is it for you for your ability to see?

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Is From The TNIV

I do not believe a man hates God until he knows there is a God to hate.

I can't say that I ever hated God

To say men hate God; I don't think that scriptrue [sic]ever says that.

Psalm 81:15 : Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever.

Romans 1:30 : slanderers, God-haters...

James 4:4 : You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity with God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

 

[Winman]

People are unwilling and unable. They are in rebellion against God. They are corrupt. They can't understand the things of God.

I will agree there are many scriptures which if taken alone do seem to say man is Totally Depraved. But there are scriptures which also show that the unsaved can understand some things of the word of God, and there are scriptures that show some of the unsaved have a desire for God.

Mark 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

This scribe was not saved, for Jesus said he had not yet attained the kingdom of God, though he was not far from it. And it says Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, which means wisely or with knowledge.

So here is an unsaved man who understood the scriptures very well, as confirmed by the scriptures themselves.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

This has to be referring to the unsaved as Jesus said those that come to him will never hunger or thirst again.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

And why would Jesus tell the unsaved to seek the kingdom of God if they were unable?

Matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Here is yet another case where Calvinism makes God contradict himself. It would be absurd for Jesus to tell the unsaved to seek the kingdom of God if man were completely unable to do this unless God first regenerates them. But if he were already regenerated, then he would no longer need to seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness, because he would have already attained it.

 

[Carico]

Here is yet another case where Calvinism makes God contradict himself. It would be absurd for Jesus to tell the unsaved to seek the kingdom of God if man were completely unable to do this unless God first regenerates them. But if he were already regenerated, then he would no longer need to seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness, because he would have already attained it.

You need to not only know scripture but put it together. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him."

In those whom God has chosen, he draws. John 14:17, :The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you."

God was drawing Jacob, David, and all his chosen since birth. The holy Spirit leads God's chosen to seek God until they become born again. So read the bible. Most of you don't know the bible at all even though you claim to. But by your posts, it's evidence that you do not.

And again, man doesn't know who God's elect are. So each man is responsible for what's in his own heart since he doesn't know if he is one of God's chosen or not.

 

[Winman]

Carico

You must not read other people's posts carefully. I have always maintained that God draws all men. If not for the scriptures, no man would know of God and Jesus. And Jesus calls all men.

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest

But you see here, Jesus wants you to come to him. Yes, he is calling, but now he wants you to obey and respond by coming to him. That is your part in salvation, to respond and come to him. You may not like that because you have listened to the teachings of men, but Jesus said "come unto me".

Do you really think if a man comes to Christ in his heart after hearing Jesus tell him to come that Jesus would turn them away?

"Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I know you came to me just as I commanded you, but now you have offended my sovereignty and must go to hell."


Calvinism makes no sense. If the unsaved are absolutely incapable of coming (or even understanding what he said) to Christ, then Jesus telling the unsaved to come to him is absurd. But if these people are already regenerated, then they are already saved, they have already attained the kingdom of God and have already had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them.

I really don't get why you can't understand this.

If a man is regenerated, then he is righteous. But Jesus did not come to save the righteous, he came to save sinners.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

If God regenerates a man, then he has already been spiritually healed and has no need to come to Jesus the great physician.

No, you come to a doctor when you are sick, and the doctor heals you.

 

[Amy.G]

Most of you don't know the bible at all even though you claim to. But by your posts, it's evidence that you do not.

Still at it I see.