Question for Arminians

[webdog]

No one is questioning the mercy of God. I just think people are generally uncomfortable with His absolute sovereignty.

...which is ultimately limited in your theology unless God's sovereignty meets the requirments of TULIP. The non cal position doesn't limit God's sovereignty as it allows for true responsibility of man (unlike the non ability definition of responsibility which is no longer responsibility but something else)

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Well, I have a problem with this. If the doctrine of Irresistable Grace is true, then it is impossible for the regenerated man not to repent. And it would be impossible for him to perish. And why would God be long-suffering? God can cause a man to believe any time he wants to if your doctrine is correct.

Now, on the other hand, if "us-ward" means all men or all mankind, then this verse makes sense. It is showing that God is being as patient with the unsaved as he possibly can be, giving them every chance and opportunity to repent.

And scripture shows this.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Here the Lord said he gave Jezebel "space" to repent but that she would not.
Now, this completely contradicts Calvinism. If God wanted her to repent (which he clearly does), he would simply regenerate her and she would have repented.

And notice in verse 22 that God has not given up on those who commited spiritual fornication with her, but God is still offering these people a chance to repent.

Thanks for your reply. Notice I am not bring to the text we discussed another doctrine, like Irresistable Grace. I am seeking to take the text and its words in context and within their semantic range as defined by the text.

I have shown how the text in Peter is referring to believers. While we can say, "if it means believers..or if it means everyone..' and speculate...or we can take the text and let the text itself define the semantic range of "all" and "us-ward"

I believe the context of 2 Peter teaches that range is limited to believers.

God is patient and longsuffering until all the people that will be saved, are saved.

The verse in revelation does not contradict Calvinism. My only guess as to why you think that is you and I understand Calvinism differently. The text says that God gave Jezebel time to repent and she did not.

And the others that went astray with her God is judging, unless they repent.

How does this contradict Calvinsim? This Scripture is about judgment for not repenting. It is not a text about the grace of God for repentance.

All it says is that she would not repent. Isn't that what I have been saying? If men are left to themselves, they will not repent and believe? THey cannot because they are enslaved to sin. They will not because the love sin.

And we both agree that unless God does draw them, they can not. There is nothing in this text given from God except time.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

...which is ultimately limited in your theology unless God's sovereignty meets the requirments of TULIP. The non cal position doesn't limit God's sovereignty as it allows for true responsibility of man (unlike the non ability definition of responsibility which is no longer responsibility but something else)

ALways coming in and saying...very little. lol

I let Scripture make my definitions, don't you?

If your postion doesn't limit God's sovereignty..whatever that means...does your understanding of God include His absolute foreknowledge of all things? If you say, God foreknows who will believe and who will not, is God's knowledge/foreknowledge in this regard absolute and perfect?

 

[webdog]

ALways coming in and saying...very little. lol

I let Scripture make my definitions, don't you?

If your postion doesn't limit God's sovereignty..whatever that means...does your understanding of God include His absolute foreknowledge of all things? If you say, God foreknows who will believe and who will not, is God's knowledge/foreknowledge in this regard absolute and perfect?

I'm not long winded...

Scripture doesn't define words, Scripture uses words (that have meanings) to convey God's Word to us. Responsibility without ability is not responsibility, plain and simple.

God's absolute knowledge of all things (omniscience) cannot be separated from His other "omni's", including omnipresence (and by extension omnitemporalness)

 

[Rippon]

All men have faith, but not all men have faith in the same object. Some believe in Mohammed, some believe in Budda, some believe in Christ.

All people do not have saving faith. Of course many people have always believed in false gods.

If faith comes only from God, then those who place their faith in graven and molten images got this faith from God.

Now that is stupid.

The Bible says the devils believe. They have faith, the Bible says so. Are they saved?

Of course not.

Are they regenerated?

Of course not.

Did God give them this faith?

You specialize in absurdities.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm not long winded...

Scripture doesn't define words, Scripture uses words (that have meanings) to convey God's Word to us. Responsibility without ability is not responsibility, plain and simple.

God's absolute knowledge of all things (omniscience) cannot be separated from His other "omni's", including omnipresence (and by extension omnitemporalness)

So, what part of this is an answer to my question?

 

[Rippon]

An intelligent man knows that he does not want to go to Hell and be punished forever, so he will repent and come to Christ.

This is foolishness. So it's your contention that someone with a higher degree of intelligence will make a common sense decision to repent and come to Christ? That person makes the difference. "Who makes thee do differ?" The man replies:"Well, I cause myself to differ from other people. I show a greater awareness and insight than most people."

An intellectual may be convinced by an awareness that creation itself proves there is an intelligent Creator who made all things, and may be convinced by the study and science of the scriptures.

See my comments above.

 

[Jim1999]

I have faith that my brollie will keep rain off my head, but it sure won't save me from hell!

The faith that comes through grace by God has no comparison in human endeavor.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I have faith that my brollie will keep rain off my head, but it sure won't save me from hell!

The faith that comes through grace by God has no comparison in human endeavor.

Cheers,

Jim

What's a brollie?

 

[Rippon]

Nowhere in scripture does it say a natural man cannot hear the word of God.

The Bible does say that the natural person does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God.

Now, if a man can only have faith if God gives it to him, then how can a just God hold a man accountable for not having faith?

The righteous and holy God holds people accountable for their sins. Would you have it any other way?

 

[Jim1999]

brollie = umbrella

Sorry,

Jim

 

[webdog]

So, what part of this is an answer to my question?

The whole thing.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The whole thing.

I don't get it.

 

[webdog]

I don't get it.

I'm sorry. I don't believe God is fixated in this point in time and looks either backwards or forwards in time (the foreknowledge I believe you are leaning towards)...He exists in all points of time at the same time.

 

[Rippon]

The Bible is very clear that God is not willing that any should perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

And the very people who He is not willing to perish are the elect alone.

2 Pet 3:9 specifically says it is not God's will that any should perish. Cannot God carry out his own will?

Absolutely. Whatever He wills is accomplished.

So, if all men are equally alike sinners, why does God choose to save only certain men, and let the others perish?

Because it is His sovereign will to do so. He has mercy on some, not all.

Think about it. If God would save every single soul -- where is the contrast in that?

If God would chose no one, where would His mercy be?

So the Lord has chosen some -- His elect.

The elect by very definition means the chosen ones. That automatically means the remainder are not chosen.

If God is not willing any should perish, then why does he let some men perish?

Because He so desires. That question of yours is usually asked by atheists, not Christians.

If God takes no pleasure in the death of any who dies, then why does God let some men perish?

Can't you let God be God? Can't you rest upon the fact that whatever He does is right?

If God's mercy endures forever, then why does he let some men perish?

See my replies to the same above.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I'm sorry. I don't believe God is fixated in this point in time and looks either backwards or forwards in time (the foreknowledge I believe you are leaning towards)...He exists in all points of time at the same time.

So does He know or not?

 

[Rippon]

If the "us ward" are the elect as calvinism claims, it makes no sense for "not wanting any to perish" to be included in the text unless some of the "us ward" could perish.

Why is that a problem for you? The Lord is not willing for any of the referenced "us" to perish. And His stated will on the matter is accomplished.

 

[Rippon]

...which is ultimately limited in your theology unless God's sovereignty meets the requirments of TULIP. The non cal position doesn't limit God's sovereignty as it allows for true responsibility of man (unlike the non ability definition of responsibility which is no longer responsibility but something else)

I fail to see why the inability of man weakens man's responsibility.

 

[Rippon]

I'm sorry. I don't believe God is fixated [you mean "situated']in this point in time and looks either backwards or forwards in time (the foreknowledge I believe you are leaning towards)...He exists in all points of time at the same time.

Calvinists believe that the Bible teaches foreknowledge means the act of God setting His love upon His elect ones -- His forelove.

 

[webdog]

So does He know or not?

What kind of stupid question is that? What does omniscience mean?