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For By Grace Are Ye Saved

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webdog

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This is true...your analogy makes God sovereign in the whole process except for one are....the distribution of the gift. Your analogy has God's hands tied with who gets it and who doesn't. Your analogy has God waiting to see what man will do. In that respect you have made man more sovereign than God.

I believe that is where your opponents are coming from.

Just an observation.
How is God not sovereign in the distribution of the gift :confused: How does the analogy "tie God's hands"? He did everything from securing the gift to presenting it. The fact someone takes it doesn't undermine the gift givers sovereignty in the least! Even if man doesn't take the gift, God remains sovereign as man cannot attain eternal life without the gift, which is God's will.
Even if God gives man this mystical "saving faith", it is GIVEN to the recipient to use, meaning you would also have to claim man is sovereign in accepting the gift in the calvinistic model as well. Whether I already own a chainsaw, or you give me a chainsaw, when a tree needs to be cut down I'm the one who needs to cut it down.
You are dead wrong...God remains sovereign throughout the entire process.
 

Winman

Active Member
Here's where your analogy breaks down. It's not that I deserved the gift I unwrap at Christmas (like that Wii my wife is going to buy me, or that wishlist I have at CBD, or those new golf clubs ...... hey, would you email my wife a few hints?)) :smilewinkgrin: You've sliced your own throat here. If you simply analogized the reception of the gift, that's one thing. But by implication (actually, you came right out and said it), the Arminian way is to make humans the center of the whole transaction. Humans worked up the faith. Humans made the decision. God was just hoping someone would take him up on his offer, powerless to do anything about it....but alas, the all-powerful man or woman conjured up enough faith to bring about salvation. Therein the rub lies. That's precisely what you're arguing by implication, intentional or not. Salvation is produced by faith. From whence cometh faith? To those who are Reformed, they believe the Bible: it is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-10). To those on the other side, it is the work of humans, a product of their reasoning and affections. So then, I did pick the gift, wrapped it, and placed my own name on it under the tree. I see that happen with my in-laws. They pick their own gifts. They buy them and bring them home. Is this truly a gift? In the same way, is it truly a gift if I claim I was the one who exerted all the effort, or even the lion's share. I've never heard one Calvinist deny that salvation is a gift. I hear few Arminians who claim such. No one is denying a personal responsibility to repent and believe. It's when this becomes the orbit around which God must subject himself where I cry foul. I just don't believe in an impotent God. That's not the God of the Bible.

Now, my wife's email is....... :laugh:

Only problem with your analogy is that it isn't scriptural. The scriptures themselves tell a man to make a choice.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Now if God commands us to make a choice, which he does, then to deny that man has a choice is usurping God's sovereignty.

And did Moses speak to the people as if they did not have the ability to make this choice? No.

But Calvinist's cannot see that. If I told my kids they could go see movie A or movie B, if they were to choose among themselves and decide to see movie A, would they be usurping my authority? No. Because I allowed them that choice. And if they chose to see movie B they would still be obedient to me. Either way they are acting in accordance to my authority and sovereignty over them, because I allowed them the choice. Now, if they went to see movie C, then they would be usurping my authority and sovereignty over them.

And this is what the Bible shows, God gives man the choice to believe or not.

Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth: thy judgments have I laid before me.

Psa 119:173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.

1 Sam 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Sam 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

The Bible clearly shows God has given men the ability and permission to choose for him or against him. You see in 1 Samuel 8:7 that God allowed the people to choose a king over them, even though that was not his will. So to deny that men are not given the ability and even the permission to make their own choices is to usurp God's sovereignty, the very thing Calvinists accuse non-Cals of.

And the Calvinist idea of sovereignty is not scriptural. God does not control every minute detail of everything that happens. Men can act independently of God's will and that is shown in scripture.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Here the children of Israel offered their own children as burnt offerings to a false god, and God says he did not command it, or speak it, and that this never came into his mind.

He also says this never came into his heart.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Here again God shows men can act independently of his will. They offered their children as a burnt offering to a false god, and God says he never commanded it, neither came it into his heart.

So this doctrine that God controls every minute detail of men's actions is false and not scriptural.
 
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Shortandy

New Member
How is God not sovereign in the distribution of the gift :confused: How does the analogy "tie God's hands"? He did everything from securing the gift to presenting it. The fact someone takes it doesn't undermine the gift givers sovereignty in the least! Even if man doesn't take the gift, God remains sovereign as man cannot attain eternal life without the gift, which is God's will.
Even if God gives man this mystical "saving faith", it is GIVEN to the recipient to use, meaning you would also have to claim man is sovereign in accepting the gift in the calvinistic model as well. Whether I already own a chainsaw, or you give me a chainsaw, when a tree needs to be cut down I'm the one who needs to cut it down.
You are dead wrong...God remains sovereign throughout the entire process.

The thought had been put in...the gift is bought....the gift is wrapped....the gift is presented....now what? In your analogy God is just waiting to see what will happen. "Will they won't they." So He is not sovereign...He is waiting...waiting to see if His hard work paid off.

But we could argue the analogy all day. The truth is you are not reformed and others are so the debate continues.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
The thought had been put in...the gift is bought....the gift is wrapped....the gift is presented....now what? In your analogy God is just waiting to see what will happen. "Will they won't they." So He is not sovereign...He is waiting...waiting to see if His hard work paid off.

Waiting! Waiting! Waiting while the Freewillers shuffle their feet trying to make up their mind! Sad!
 

Winman

Active Member
The thought had been put in...the gift is bought....the gift is wrapped....the gift is presented....now what? In your analogy God is just waiting to see what will happen. "Will they won't they." So He is not sovereign...He is waiting...waiting to see if His hard work paid off.

But we could argue the analogy all day. The truth is you are not reformed and others are so the debate continues.

Receiving the gift of salvation does not violate God's sovereignty, because that is the method God has determined. Imposing salvation on someone actually violates God's sovereignty, because that is not the method he has chosen.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The power of receiving in this verse is "to them". It is the person who receives this gift, and "to them" God gives the power (Holy Spirit) to "become" the sons of God. And then it explains this method of receiving as believeing on his name.

And notice you do not receive the power or Holy Spirit until after you believe, not before. So they could not have been regenerated, not yet having received the Spirit.

You may not like the idea of man playing a part in his salvation, but that is the method God has chosen. To deny that is actually to ursurp God's sovereignty.

Look what Peter told the Jews on the day of Pentacost.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Peter told the Jews who heard his preaching to "save themselves". This was Peter under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it is scripture.

Do you actually believe Peter would tell them to violate God's sovereignty? Peter had no problem telling these people to "save themselves" and he was an apostle. I would listen to Peter before I would listen to a Calvinist. But that's me.

And then it says those that "gladly received his word" were baptized. So, it shows the receiving was done by the hearer. There is not a word mentioned of anyone being regenerated to believe. In fact, there is not one verse in all the Bible that shows that. If you think you know one, then show it, nobody has shown it in hundreds of years.

And what did Paul say to the Philipian jailer when he asked how to be saved?

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


First of all, this passage shows that an unsaved, unregenerate man can desire to know God and how to be saved. And we know he was not saved because Paul told him he needed to believe and then he would be saved. So the Philipian jailer was an unregenerated man when he asked how to be saved. There goes the doctrine of Total Depravity out the window right there.

And if Calvinism is really true, then there is no sure way to answer this question. Paul should have told him that he should do nothing whatsoever, and if he so happened to be fortunate enough to be one of the elect, then God would do it all for him and regenerate him.

When the people came to Jesus and asked what works they should do to do the works of God, he should have told them to do nothing whatsoever, because that would violate God's sovereignty. But Jesus told them to believe on him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


So, do you believe Jesus himself would violate his Father's sovereignty? And do you believe Jesus would mislead people and tell them to believe when he knows they cannot possibly believe?

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Oh my, Paul here commands Timothy to take heed unto himself and the doctrine he has been taught and says in doing so he will save himself and those that hear him.

Wow. So do you think the apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit would tell a person to violate the sovereignty of God??

So, you may not like the idea that man plays a part in salvation, but you got that from the teachings of men, not the scriptures.
 
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webdog

Active Member
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The thought had been put in...the gift is bought....the gift is wrapped....the gift is presented....now what? In your analogy God is just waiting to see what will happen. "Will they won't they." So He is not sovereign...He is waiting...waiting to see if His hard work paid off.

But we could argue the analogy all day. The truth is you are not reformed and others are so the debate continues.
You are looking at the analogy from a finite point of view, not an infinite one. God doesn't wait to see what happens...He knows what will happen...He is STILL sovereign. He makes the rules, He requires man to have faith to be saved. If man doesn't, he still remains sovereign, as it's His rules. Why is that so hard to understand?
 

Winman

Active Member
You are looking at the analogy from a finite point of view, not an infinite one. God doesn't wait to see what happens...He knows what will happen...He is STILL sovereign. He makes the rules, He requires man to have faith to be saved. If man doesn't, he still remains sovereign, as it's His rules. Why is that so hard to understand?

Yes. Ever read the book of Revelations? Have those things happened yet? Yet God knows exactly what is going to take place.

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Waiting! Waiting! Waiting while the Freewillers shuffle their feet trying to make up their mind! Sad!

Since when is waiting a problem for God? Patience is a fruit of the Spirit.

Isa 30:18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Rom 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
 
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Winman

Active Member
So, you think that God waiting for someone to repent and accept Christ violates the sovereignty of God?

Well, that brings up an interesting question. If Calvinism is true, why does God wait many years to regenerate some people? I mean, if he regenerated them young they could serve him their entire life.

So why does he wait until men are often very old and let them live a sinful, unproductive life for many years before he decides to regenerate them?

And how does a Calvinist know when he is regenerated? I have never really heard any Calvinist answer this question.
 

Allan

Active Member
The above statement is illogical and contradictory.
Actually, it is not only logical but it is the only biblical view.
You say that:
Originally Posted by Allan
Man has no power with respect to saving himself
.
Yep, man has no power to save himself nor does faith itself save him or better - faith itself does not make a person saved.

Salvation is something God does 'to' man and it is His choice to do it. Man does not determine he is going to be saved now and God obeys. Man chooses to believe God and God determines whether or not He will save Him.

Which contradicts the following:
Originally Posted by Allan
The only thing that man is required to do is believe that God will do what He said - nothing more and nothing less. His believing isn't salvation, but believing is what God requires that He might save them
.
No contradiction at all brother. [edited by me].

Even in the reformed view man is required to believe that God might save him. Is that faith, salvation. Did God give that man the power to save himself in the Reformed view? Of course not! But even in the reformed view we see that man 'is' required to believe in order that he might be saved and yet man still has no power to save himself. So my statements in no way contradict each other unless a person just chooses to ignore what was said .

So according to your rationale man does have power with respect to saving himself.
No, it is only according to your mistaken understanding of what I said.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Even in the reformed view man is required to believe that God might save him. Is that faith, salvation. Did God give that man the power to save himself in the Reformed view? Of course not! But even in the reformed view we see that man 'is' required to believe in order that he might be saved and yet man still has no power to save himself. So my statements in no way contradict each other unless a person just chooses to ignore what was said .

From what I can tell, Calvinists consider faith a work. Faith is not a work, the scriptures say so.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

To trust or believe on someone means to cease from one's own effort and depend upon another.

If I were in a building on fire on the 5th floor, and firemen were standing below with a big net, calling for me to jump, and promising to catch me, I have two options. I can try to climb down myself, or I can jump and trust them to catch me.

Now if I jump and they catch me, can I take credit for saving myself? Of course not.

But you have to do something. Doing nothing at all is not trusting or believeing. That is like remaining in the building, I would burn to death. No, you must commit yourself.

And Jesus did this himself.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus gave up the ghost here voluntarily. Pilate was amazed that he died so soon, well before the other men. They had to break the other men's legs so that they could not support themselves and would die sooner.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:


Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

So, you see Jesus gave up the ghost voluntarily, he commended or committed his soul into the care of his Father. This is what it means to trust or believe on Christ. Jesus was God, he could have stayed alive as long as he wanted, he could have come down from the cross if he had wanted.

To commend mens to intrust or commit oneself. And this is what you must do to be saved. You must personally commend your spirit into Jesus Christ's hands and depend upon him 100% to save you. You cease from all effort to save yourself.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Winman

You make so many false assumptions about what you call Calvinism, but I call the Biblical Doctrines of Grace, that it shows you are not knowledgeable of the doctrine. No one who believes the Biblical Doctrines of Grace would deny that faith is not an essential part of salvation. In fact the rallying cry of the Lutheran Reformation was Justification by Faith Alone.

We just say that faith is the gift of God consistent with the teaching of Scripture!
 

Winman

Active Member
Winman

You make so many false assumptions about what you call Calvinism, but I call the Biblical Doctrines of Grace, that it shows you are not knowledgeable of the doctrine. No one who believes the Biblical Doctrines of Grace would deny that faith is not an essential part of salvation. In fact the rallying cry of the Lutheran Reformation was Justification by Faith Alone.

We just say that faith is the gift of God consistent with the teaching of Scripture!

You have said yourself that the New Birth does not require faith. This is from one of your posts.

Original Post by OldRegular

John 3:4-8
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Notice that this New Birth is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. Nothing is said about the requirement of prior faith.

I highlighted that last line, but those are your very words. So, don't tell me I am making assumptions or mischaracterizing you.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
You have said yourself that the New Birth does not require faith. This is from one of your posts.

I highlighted that last line, but those are your very words. So, don't tell me I am making assumptions or mischaracterizing you.

Have I said anywhere that faith is not required for salvation?
 

Winman

Active Member
And furthermore, the term "Doctrines of Grace" is just another name for Calvinism, you hold basically the same beliefs. That said, not all who call themselves Calvinists hold to the same exact beliefs. There is very little difference between what you believe and Calvinists believe.

An article by Dr. Laurance Vance

The controversy over Calvinism among the Baptists calls for special attention. Not only has this debate raged among the Baptists for hundreds of years, the greatest exponents of Calvinism today are not the Presbyterian or Reformed but the Baptists. The fact that a Baptist says he is not a Calvinist means nothing, for the Baptists, more than any other Calvinists, when seeking to draw attention away from the name of Calvin, use the phrase "Doctrines of Grace" as a metaphor for Calvinism.105 Another term used by Baptists is "Sovereign Grace."106 The term "grace" by itself is also used to stand for the doctrines of Calvinism.107 One Calvinistic Baptist even wrote a book called Grace Not Calvinism.108 But just as was pointed out previously, if Calvinism is the doctrine of grace found in the Bible then this implies that if you disagree with Calvinism then you are denying salvation by grace. Some Calvinistic Baptists get downright offended when they are accused of being Calvinists. Joseph Wilson, the former editor of a Calvinistic Baptist newspaper, went on record as saying:

We are Sovereign Grace Landmark Missionary Baptists. That's what we are. That's how we advertise ourselves. That's what we desire to be known as, and to be called by others. Call us this, and you will get no argument. We are not ashamed of this. We are glad to wear this label. Call us "Calvinists" and you offend us.109

Was it Abraham Lincoln that asked if you call a dog's tail a leg, then how many legs does a dog have? Lincoln answered four, just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it so.
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by OldRegular
Have I said anywhere that faith is not required for salvation?
Non Response by winman
What? You don't consider the New Birth, being born again salvation? You have said faith is not a requirement for the New Birth.

I ask you again, have I said anywhere that faith is not required for salvation?
 
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