Christmas thoughts

[Doubting Thomas]

Fifty or more years ago you would have never seen an evangelical church with a cross; a steeple perhaps, but not a cross. It was an outward symbol of Roman Catholicism. It is not a symbol of Christianity. When Paul spoke of the cross he was never speaking of a physical image, some beautiful thing to be adorned.

The cross is horrible, ugly, defiled by torn flesh, bloody masses of gruesome body parts. If you want to wear a cross make it real. It wasn't silver or gold. It was wood and rugged and stained with blood.

Would you wear an electric chair around your neck, or the hangman's noose? Why not? The cross was the common method of execution done by the Roman government. It was a means of death. It was not glorious. Remember that two thieves died the same way, one on each side of Christ. Why would anyone want to wear a cross around their neck. It is horrible and gruesome. If your going to do it, make it realistic.

When Paul spoke of the cross, that is what he spoke of; the cross that Christ died on--something horrible; aweful; gruesome, painful, something that Jesus did to take away our sins.

A little gold decoration around one's neck in no way represents what Christ did on the cross. It may represent Catholicism, but not Christianity. If you need a symbol for Christianity it is the empty tomb, not a cross.
We don't serve a dead Saviour.

No, we don't serve a dead Saviour, but by His wounds we are healed, and the Apostle Paul said he "boasted in the Cross of Christ". Many people wear the a little crosses around their neck--or sign themselves with the cross--as a testimony to their faith in Christ's atonement. (Of course I realize that many others wear the cross or make the sign of the cross because of cultural or fashion considerations without regard to the meaning of the cross--I'm not talking about those folks). Also, Christians were making the sign of the cross even before Constantine came on the scene, so you can't blame it all on that rascally Roman Catholic Church which Constantine allegedly invented.

 

[DHK]

No, we don't serve a dead Saviour, but by His wounds we are healed, and the Apostle Paul said he "boasted in the Cross of Christ".

You miss the whole point. What did Paul mean when he said that? He was not referring to a pretty little gold decoration. He was referring to a bloody cross on which Christ was crucified. It was blood stained, His flesh still hanging from it. The picture he had in mind was far different from the little ornamental pieces that people wear around their necks and even from their ears. He gloried in the cross--the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross--that is what he is speaking of. If you are going to wear a cross make it real, and don't be a hypocrite, or else don't wear one at all. I prefer the latter.

Many people wear the a little crosses around their neck--or sign themselves with the cross--as a testimony to their faith in Christ's atonement. (Of course I realize that many others wear the cross or make the sign of the cross because of cultural or fashion considerations without regard to the meaning of the cross--I'm not talking about those folks).

Naive aren't they?
Is it necessary to wear a cross to let others know that you are a Christian. Pagans wear crosses too.

Also, Christians were making the sign of the cross even before Constantine came on the scene, so you can't blame it all on that rascally Roman Catholic Church which Constantine allegedly invented.

What kind of Christians? True believers in Christ? I doubt it. There are many that the history books call Christians that are not. But then Voodooism uses crosses also.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

How is wearing a cross being pagan? We know what the cross stands for. There are pagan type crosses (the equal armed cross comes to mind) but this should not keep us from wearing a cross, if one wishes.

The Christian fish symbol is very different looking from the Pisces symbol in astrology.

Are you really saying shaking hands, wearing crosses, and using the Christian fish symbol is wrong?

Yes its wrong!!!! You of all people should know about pagan things and our Christian culture is deluged with them!!! Just like the Symbol of a dove for the Holy Spirit that we use is another pagan symbol used in Babylon and homosexuals use the rainbow dove for their purposes today. We should do away with that as well!!!! I think the English Puritans had a point when it came to symbols. I hope you don't listen to that rock music either. Look what happened to Amy Grant. The Devil's about with his symbols!!!! And we're buying into it with everything from celebrating his Sol Invictus on December 25th and Easter who is really Ishtar. I mean the Disciples were Jewish and we're having Easter hams?!? Do away with them!!!!

 

[lori4dogs]

And of course y'all would never think of wearing weddings rings! As everyone knows they have pagan roots.

 

[lori4dogs]

What kind of Christians? True believers in Christ? I doubt it. There are many that the history books call Christians that are not. But then Voodooism uses crosses also.

Why would you doubt that a true believer would make the sign of the cross? Your anti-catholicism runs so deep that a simple gesture that identified a person as a Christian automatically disqualifies them from being a true believer.

 

[DHK]

And of course y'all would never think of wearing weddings rings! As everyone knows they have pagan roots.

Yep, the Olympics have five of them locked together, and we know the origins of the Olympics.

 

[DHK]

Why would you doubt that a true believer would make the sign of the cross? Your anti-catholicism runs so deep that a simple gesture that identified a person as a Christian automatically disqualifies them from being a true believer.

No, my experience as an ex-Catholic runs deep. I would never be able to count the number of times I made that foolish gesture. The sign of the cross is used commonly when one "is blessing oneself." I don't need to bless myself. God blesses me.

 

[saturneptune]

No, my experience as an ex-Catholic runs deep. I would never be able to count the number of times I made that foolish gesture. The sign of the cross is used commonly when one "is blessing oneself." I don't need to bless myself. God blesses me.

I do not believe all Catholics are lost. I think the Lord has saved some despite the gross perversion of their theology. That is a great testimony that to the Lord, anything is possible. One thing I have never understood, even after reading the history. How could we have such a viabrant New Testement Church in Acts and just a few centuries later, viola, we have the most vile, ungodly form of Christianity in the form of the Vatican, that has drawn in so many people, and continues to infect the Lord's work to this day.

Why is it that we have such detailed history of this monster, and cannot figure out if we as Baptists, for sure, came out of the Reformation, or was along side the Catholic church preserving the Lord's church. My heart's desire is the latter.

 

[DHK]

I do not believe all Catholics are lost. I think the Lord has saved some despite the gross perversion of their theology. That is a great testimony that to the Lord, anything is possible. One thing I have never understood, even after reading the history. How could we have such a viabrant New Testement Church in Acts and just a few centuries later, viola, we have the most vile, ungodly form of Christianity in the form of the Vatican, that has drawn in so many people, and continues to infect the Lord's work to this day.

After 20 years in the Catholic Church, the Lord saved my soul. But because I was not taught in the Scriptures I did not leave the Catholic Church until two years later. Thus the case can be made that there are others like myself in the Catholic Church that are saved, but don't know any better than to get out.
The Reformers, like Luther, stayed in the Catholic Church, trying to reform it from within, but it never worked. They ended up getting excommunicated. There are many such naive new believers that think they can change the church from within. But we know it won't work. Yes, there are some believers within the walls of that corrupt institution; not because of it, but in spite of it.

Why is it that we have such detailed history of this monster, and cannot figure out if we as Baptists, for sure, came out of the Reformation, or was along side the Catholic church preserving the Lord's church. My heart's desire is the latter.

The latter is true. Instead of reading church history written by Catholics, read Baptist History. There have always been true believers always protesting against the heretical teachings of the RCC. Their writings are few because they were the persecuted ones. For an example, there was a Crusade against the Albigenses at the same time that there was against the Muslims. Muslims and Christians alike==they were going to kill them both off.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And of course y'all would never think of wearing weddings rings! As everyone knows they have pagan roots.

Quite right. The wedding ring was first developed by the Ancient Egyptians to symbolize eternity after the fashion of the endless cycle of the Sun and the moon traveling around the earth and under it through the paths of the dead. The space in the middle symbolized a gateway to this eternal dance of the gods of the moon and the sun. BTW. I find no where in the bible a mention of a wedding ring. Its extra biblical and cannot and should not be used to symbolize our marriages which are holy unto God. Do away with them. I hold to Scriptures alone and they don't mention Wedding rings. selah.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What kind of Christians? True believers in Christ? I doubt it. There are many that the history books call Christians that are not. But then Voodooism uses crosses also.

Why would you doubt that a true believer would make the sign of the cross? Your anti-catholicism runs so deep that a simple gesture that identified a person as a Christian automatically disqualifies them from being a true believer.

the Signum Crucis is no more than paganism out right. We understand that modern witches (and ninja's btw) use hand symbols to identify meanings related to power. This was done in the ancient world as well. I am certain that if you were to do a study you would corrilate it with well known practices in Babylon and maybe with Mythras. This again is a paganistic ritual to ward off demons or to call on power highjacked by christians
"supposidly to remind them of the Trinity" Which even the Catholic church couldn't dispence with from their attempts to highjack Christianity. They tried but then they couldn't do away with it. Thank goodness the Trinity was well established before 325 or Constantine that first pope would have dispenced with it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I do not believe all Catholics are lost. I think the Lord has saved some despite the gross perversion of their theology. That is a great testimony that to the Lord, anything is possible. One thing I have never understood, even after reading the history. How could we have such a viabrant New Testement Church in Acts and just a few centuries later, viola, we have the most vile, ungodly form of Christianity in the form of the Vatican, that has drawn in so many people, and continues to infect the Lord's work to this day.

Why is it that we have such detailed history of this monster, and cannot figure out if we as Baptists, for sure, came out of the Reformation, or was along side the Catholic church preserving the Lord's church. My heart's desire is the latter.

According to Carrol Baptist were given illigitimate names like Nestorians, Montanist, Jovinianist, and the like and were killed by the Papist and all their works were destroyed. So the real evidence of baptist is either locked away in the bowels of the Vatican or burned ages ago.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What is scary is that I'm the only consistent speaker on this thread. Get rid of all paganism from the true believers. How can people be allowed to pick and choose their brand of paganism? Why do some say wearing crosses are wrong but celebrate Christmas on December 25th. Why do some say they are for the scriptures alone but commit to extra biblical activity in their doctrine like the pagan rings? Get rid of them all and stop making allowances for your personal brand of paganism within your faith!!!!!! Those who hold to any of these pagan practices are idolaters no better than the papist who are obvious with their idolatry!!!!! We are to be a peculiar people Holy, and devoted to the Lord. Holy means set apart not taking up pagan practices and "christianizing them."

 

[HankD]

Are you consistent in your practice?

Each day of the week is named after a false Pagan god.

If your church has their prayer meeting on Wednesday then they are honoring Woden on Woden's day. If Thursday then you are honoring Thor on Thor's day.

The biblical mandate is to use cardinal numbers: First day of the week; second day; seventh day, etc.

So if you already haven't, strike these names from your vocabulary and start obeying the Bible.

HankD

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Are you consistent in your practice?

Each day of the week is named after a false Pagan god.

If your church has their prayer meeting on Wednesday then they are honoring Woden on Woden's day. If Thursday then you are honoring Thor on Thor's day.

The biblical mandate is to use cardinal numbers: First day of the week; second day; seventh day, etc.

So if you already haven't, strike these names from your vocabulary and start obeying the Bible.

HankD

I agree with you we should rename the week days. After all if Jewish people can do that why can't we as christians? I can even see us using the Jewish Calander that at least would be biblical. See. I'm for eliminating all pagan referrences not hold on to my persona pet pagan idea and thus be an idolater. Are you just going to give up because you have a particular paganism you don't want to part with?

 

[lori4dogs]

I do not believe all Catholics are lost. I think the Lord has saved some despite the gross perversion of their theology. That is a great testimony that to the Lord, anything is possible. One thing I have never understood, even after reading the history. How could we have such a viabrant New Testement Church in Acts and just a few centuries later, viola, we have the most vile, ungodly form of Christianity in the form of the Vatican, that has drawn in so many people, and continues to infect the Lord's work to this day.

Why is it that we have such detailed history of this monster, and cannot figure out if we as Baptists, for sure, came out of the Reformation, or was along side the Catholic church preserving the Lord's church. My heart's desire is the latter.

How generous of you! To think that maybe, just maybe some of us poor ignorant Catholics might be saved!

My experience as a former Baptist, now Catholic Christian is that there are MANY Catholics who love Jesus, believe they are saved by His shed blood on the cross and strive to share the Good News of salvation with the lost of this world.

 

[DHK]

Are you consistent in your practice?

Each day of the week is named after a false Pagan god.

If your church has their prayer meeting on Wednesday then they are honoring Woden on Woden's day. If Thursday then you are honoring Thor on Thor's day.

The biblical mandate is to use cardinal numbers: First day of the week; second day; seventh day, etc.

So if you already haven't, strike these names from your vocabulary and start obeying the Bible.

HankD

The difference here is that the days of the week are not "worship days." They are not days that are specifically set aside for "Christian" worship. December 25 is claimed as a Christian holiday when in reality it is more pagan than it is Christian. That is the difference. Yes, there is still consistency.

 

[ccrobinson]

Get rid of all paganism from the true believers. How can people be allowed to pick and choose their brand of paganism? Why do some say wearing crosses are wrong but celebrate Christmas on December 25th. Why do some say they are for the scriptures alone but commit to extra biblical activity in their doctrine like the pagan rings? Get rid of them all and stop making allowances for your personal brand of paganism within your faith!!!!!! Those who hold to any of these pagan practices are idolaters no better than the papist who are obvious with their idolatry!!!!! We are to be a peculiar people Holy, and devoted to the Lord. Holy means set apart not taking up pagan practices and "christianizing them."

I believe it was Paul that said something like "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." I have done this and I am persuaded.

But, you would rather be unbiblical in this matter. You think everybody should think like you do and you call them idolators and the like when they don't think that way. Celebrate Christmas in September if you want, but I'm fully persuaded that I'm not sinning by celebrating on December 25th. I'll thank you to take your insults back where they came from.

This debate is very much like the debate that Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians about meat sacrificed to idols.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I believe it was Paul that said something like "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." I have done this and I am persuaded.

But, you would rather be unbiblical in this matter. You think everybody should think like you do and you call them idolators and the like when they don't think that way. Celebrate Christmas in September if you want, but I'm fully persuaded that I'm not sinning by celebrating on December 25th. I'll thank you to take your insults back where they came from.

This debate is very much like the debate that Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians about meat sacrificed to idols.

ah. So if you follow the same principle of that argument. Then, I being the weaker Christian, should be considered in the practice of these pagan holidays. And being a servant of Christ you must submit yourself to preventing my stumbling thus accordingly deny yourself the practice of it.

 

[Revmitchell]

ah. So if you follow the same principle of that argument. Then, I being the weaker Christian, should be considered in the practice of these pagan holidays. And being a servant of Christ you must submit yourself to preventing my stumbling thus accordingly deny yourself the practice of it.

Are you playing devils advocate or just being ignorant.