The basis of God's choice

[webdog]

I will ask you the same question I ask Amy. Can you really explain why you believed?

I can explain why I believed, the question was why do some believe and others don't.

 

[webdog]

Also explain how your belief was a "choice."

Choice by definition means the option to not choose is also present, or it's not a choice.

 

[webdog]

God elects on (or according to) His own good pleasure. The basis of His election is His own will.

Blessings,

The Archangel

There is a reason he takes good pleasure in election, what is it?

 

[AresMan]

Choice by definition means the option to not choose is also present, or it's not a choice.

Sure, but are not choices based upon current beliefs? How does one "choose" to believe something?

Either one is convinced that something is true and therefore believes it, or he is not convinced that something is true and therefore does not believe it.

How can one arbitrarily choose what one actually believes?

 

[The Archangel]

This is almost funny. You contradict yourself (and scripture):

You say:

It says that by Adam sin entered the world.

Then, you go on to say:

The truth is, we do not know that Adam and Eve were created in sinless perfection

If sin entered by Adam (through his sin, as Romans 5 states) then he was sinless before.

It does not say that Adam's sin passed upon us. That is a huge difference and people often read into the verse what it does not really say. It says sin entered the world by Adam, and the curse of death entered by sin. Then it says death passed upon all men because all men have sinned. It does not say Adam's sin passed upon us, it says we die for our own sin.

Actually it does:

Romans 5:13-14
13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Paul goes way out of his way to explain that there is no "law" per se between Adam and Moses and therefore there is technically no sin. So, if there is no sin and the wages of sin is death, no one should have been dying. But, everyone after Adam died...even until today (except, of course, Enoch and Elijah--special cases). The fact that everyone after Adam died shows, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that sin and death passed on to all mankind, because of Adam. After all, "In Adam all die" and "In Christ many will be made alive" If you want the "In Christ" you have to have the "In Adam." This is the theology of "Federal Headship" sowing that Adam represented the entire human race. If you want Christ as a representative, you have to accept Adam as your default representative. Scripture leaves no other option.

Now, these are very interesting verses of scripture that I am sure could be debated forever, but Eve was not held accountable for her sin. She did not eat in knowing disobedience, she was deceived. But Adam was not deceived by Satan's lie and knowingly ate of the forbidden fruit.

So, this shows that a person must be of an age or maturity of accountability to be guilty of sin.

Now that last statement is silly--because there is nothing in the text you've suggested (or anywhere else) that even comes close to suggesting that. You are pulling that out of thin air

Further, Eve was, in fact, held accountable for her sin, but Adam was held ultimately accountable because he is the head and as such he is responsible for Eve.

What is more, the text you quote is Paul's appeal to creation as to why women cannot be pastors. It is saying nothing of accountability.

And this is another area where I think Calvinism errs. Man knows good, the scriptures say so. It is a little far-fetched to believe that man can know what true good is, yet is not able to perform it.

Again, this is not what that text is saying.

It is almost as if you are engaging in the age-old fallacy of "This is what this means to me" when God doesn't give a rip as to what this means to you. Rather, He cares greatly, as we should too, about what the author intended to say.

If you go against the author's main point, you are not doing "exposition," you are doing "imposition." The Genesis text about man knowing good and evil says nothing about ability, just as the Timothy passage says nothing about accountability.

The scriptures do not say that man has no righteousness,

Really?! Romans 3:10 None is righteous, no, not one;

Scripture stands against you, in many places.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Dr. Bob]

On what basis COULD God choose/elect someone in eternity past to be the recipient of His Knowing/Loving if NOT unconditionally?

If on a person's future action, He is basing it on works

If on a person's ethnicity, family, nationality, He is basing it on respect of persons

If on good looks and intelligence, I'd be the only one chosen

 

[The Archangel]

There is a reason he takes good pleasure in election, what is it?

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. Can you explain? Also, how would you answer this question? Knowing this may help me to answer your question.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I can explain why I believed, the question was why do some believe and others don't.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock

One does not believe to become part of His flock. Rather, one believes precisely because He has already been placed in His flock.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[DHK]

There is a reason he takes good pleasure in election, what is it?

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The reason he takes good pleasure in election is that he knew before hand who would take pleasure in glorifying Him in their lives, by first trusting Him as their Saviour. That, of course, would be their decision to make. God doesn't force anyone to be saved/regenerated.

 

[The Archangel]

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The reason he takes good pleasure in election is that he knew before hand who would take pleasure in glorifying Him in their lives, by first trusting Him as their Saviour. That, of course, would be their decision to make. God doesn't force anyone to be saved/regenerated.

But the problem here is how Peter uses "elect" in verse one. This word is usually applied to Israel and here Peter clearly applies it to the church.

Certainly we would not say that God foreknew Israel (in an knew-beforehand kind of way). We would say that God chose Israel. So the usage here is probably intended to be the same--the church was chosen by God.

This typical usage informs Peter's use of "foreknew" so that it is not a mere knowing beforehand.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

God doesn't force anyone to be saved/regenerated.

Continued use and abuse of this statement is getting ridiculous. Where has anyone on this Forum said that God forces one to be saved? That is simply a cop out by you Arminians. In regeneration God changes the will of His Chosen Ones so that instead of denying God they desire God who gives them the gift of Faith to respond affirmatively to the Gospel.

There is no force here. Scripture identifies those to whom this change will be made in the following Scripture.

John 10:26-28
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those who are not the sheep of Jesus Christ will not believe. Those who are the Chosen Ones are given unto Him by the Father. They are known by Jesus Christ and will follow Him.

John 6:39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The Apostle Paul says of these Chosen Ones:

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

It is God the Father who chooses us in Jesus Christ. It is God the Father who makes us accepted in the beloved, Jesus Christ.

Scripture describes the need for change in the following Scripture.

1Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unregenerate man. Until a change is made in his will he will reject the offer of Salvation in the Gospel. Jesus Christ describes how this required change is made as follows:

John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

The Apostle Paul describes how this this required change is made as follows:

Ephesians 2:1-7
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Finally the Apostle Paul describes theresult of the new birth, regeneration.

2 Corinthians 5:17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[DHK]

But the problem here is how Peter uses "elect" in verse one. This word is usually applied to Israel and here Peter clearly applies it to the church.

Certainly we would not say that God foreknew Israel (in an knew-beforehand kind of way). We would say that God chose Israel. So the usage here is probably intended to be the same--the church was chosen by God.

This typical usage informs Peter's use of "foreknew" so that it is not a mere knowing beforehand.

Blessings,

The Archangel

You would have a hard time convincing me of your theology since I don't believe in "the church" The word "ecclesia" translated "church" simply means "assembly". It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly or an assembly that never meets, cannot assemble, is impossible to assemble. It is a contradiction of terms. That is problem #1.

Secondly, you need to put Jewish theology away. It doesn't matter how the word was used with Jews. Remember that the OT was written in Hebrew and the NT in Greek, so the word wasn't used "that way" in the OT, was it?

Here is the passage again:
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

The theme of the book is to encourage and comfort those that are going through suffering. There was a great persecution by Nero at that time. Thus he writes to the "strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (the elect of God).
These believers may have been strangers to Peter, but were not strangers to God. They had trusted Him as Saviour, and were born again.

They were redeemed: "with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:19)

They believed (their choice)
1 Peter 1:21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

They were born again:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

God knew beforehand who would believe and glorify him. Those ones were the elect. They were elect according to the foreknowledge of God--God knowing that they would believe.

 

[DHK]

Continued use and abuse of this statement is getting ridiculous. Where has anyone on this Forum said that God forces one to be saved? That is simply a cop out by you Arminians. In regeneration God changes the will of His Chosen Ones so that instead of denying God they desire God who gives them the gift of Faith to respond affirmatively to the Gospel.

You just said that "God changes (forces) the will of His Chosen Ones."
You are the one that continually teaches that God forces people to be saved. You just repeated it in the quote above. You state it in your posts ad infinitum.

 

[Robert Snow]

Calvinists, on what basis does God elect? Or is it random? It's one or the other.

I'm not a Calvinist, but these two possibilities are not the only ones possible. God could choose for other reasons, yet not reveal them to us.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I'm not a Calvinist, but these two possibilities are not the only ones possible. God could choose for other reasons, yet not reveal them to us.

Excellent addition to the conversation. We know why God DOESN'T elect (based on works, number, ethnicity). Deut 7:7 "The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people . . . "

We don't know if there is an unknown factor in election that God has chosen not to reveal.

This I know. God has chosen people to regenerate and God has chosen me to go with the Gospel to all men (since I've not got a clue about who those selected ones might be).

Hard enough to deal with what God HAS revealed!!

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
Continued use and abuse of this statement is getting ridiculous. Where has anyone on this Forum said that God forces one to be saved? That is simply a cop out by you Arminians. In regeneration God changes the will of His Chosen Ones so that instead of denying God they desire God who gives them the gift of Faith to respond affirmatively to the Gospel.

Response Posted by DHK
You just said that "God changes (forces) the will of His Chosen Ones."
You are the one that continually teaches that God forces people to be saved. You just repeated it in the quote above. You state it in your posts ad infinitum.

If you own a dictionary you might make the effort to read the meaning of change. You would learn, assuming you will allow such a thing to occur, that change does not mean force.

Using the irrational logic you use above one would conclude that you forced yourself to believe in Jesus Christ. There obviously was a time when you did not believe. You changed your mind and believed. Therefore, you forced yourself to believe. Do you now understand how your little argument that God forces people to be saved is so silly?

Incidentally don't you think it is a little silly to say: "You state it in your posts ad infinitum." Ad infinitum means without limit in case you want to know! There I used silly twice in the same post, ad infinitum as you would say.

 

[Tom Butler]

If one does not believe God can change a lost man's heart, what is the point of praying that God will save him? What is the point of asking God to save anybody, if he can't?

We all have lost loved ones. They are currently unwilling to confess Jesus as Lord. My fervent prayer is that God will make them willing.

 

[Allan]

If you own a dictionary you might make the effort to read the meaning of change. You would learn, assuming you will allow such a thing to occur, that change does not mean force.

Using the irrational logic you use above one would conclude that you forced yourself to believe in Jesus Christ. There obviously was a time when you did not believe. You changed your mind and believed. Therefore, you forced yourself to believe. Do you now understand how your little argument that God forces people to be saved is so silly?

Incidentally don't you think it is a little silly to say: "You state it in your posts ad infinitum." Ad infinitum means without limit in case you want to know! There I used silly twice in the same post, ad infinitum as you would say.

Let's use some logic - k?

Did the person ask God to regenerate them?
Did the person want/desire to be regenerated?
Did God regenerate them without their permission or willingness for it?

If you answered no then by definition you/they were forced - meaning something done against their will

Force
verb (used with object)
1. to compel, constrain, or oblige (oneself or someone) to do something: to force a suspect to confess.
2. to drive or propel against resistance: He forced his way through the crowd. They forced air into his lungs.
3. to bring about or effect by force.
4. to bring about of necessity or as a necessary result: to force a smile.
5. to put or impose (something or someone) forcibly on or upon a person: to force one's opinions on others.
6. to compel by force; overcome the resistance of: to force acceptance of something.
7. to obtain or draw forth by or as if by force; extort: to force a confession.
8. to enter or take by force; overpower: They forced the town after a long siege.
9. to break open (a door, lock, etc.).
10. to cause (plants, fruits, etc.) to grow or mature at an increased rate by artificial means.
11. to press, urge, or exert (an animal, person, etc.) to violent effort or to the utmost.
12. to use force upon.
13. to rape.

forced (fôrst, fōrst)
adj.
Imposed by force; involuntary: was condemned to a life of forced labor; a plane that made a forced landing.

Produced under strain; not spontaneous: forced laughter.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2009 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

 

[OldRegular]

Allan

You should look up the meaning of change just as I suggested to DHK!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Given the logic of you and DHK it would be illogical to pray for the lost as Tom Butler suggested!

 

[Allan]

If one does not believe God can change a lost man's heart, what is the point of praying that God will save him?

Simple. God working upon them is the only way they can know spiritual truths (sin, righteousness, and judgment to come) but man still must believe or else God will not and can not save him prior to this. Thus the point of praying God save them is simply making our petitions to God, NOT force them the change but to continue His work upon them by revealing truth and conicting them.

What is the point of asking God to save anybody, if he can't?

Now you are building a house of cards only to know down. No one says or has said that God is powerless to save, but the biblical fact remains God will not and can not save until man first believes.

I have a similar question.
If God does it all, then why do my Calvinistic/Reformed brethren pray for anyone to be saved as well?
God is the one going to do it to whom He has already chosen and man has no part in it anyway so why even pray for anyone's salvation?
Does this not place your will above God's and His plan and election.
Is it not true that the elect will be saved because man has no part in his salvation and God does it all?

We all have lost loved ones. They are currently unwilling to confess Jesus as Lord. My fervent prayer is that God will make them willing.

This is something both the Cal and non-cal does.