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Drinking Question......
- Thread starter ShotGunWillie
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THUNDERBIRD??? Bleck!!! Why give God something icky like that???? Hey - I live on Long Island - we have GREAT wines!
In here late ShotGunWillie, so some of what I say may have been said, but not all I'm sure. Also will say drinking can bring trouble, for those who indulge too much, or their system cannot handle.
No were in His Word can be found having a drink to be a sin, except with certain persons, and some of those could, except in a certain place.
Of course being a drunkard is a sin. Being drunk once or twice is not a sin. Going through life as a drunk is a sin.
I personally believe the naysayer Christians should read scripture much more closely, believing what they read, and quit listening to what the world has put into their minds. If they agree that God " causes the grass to grow for the cattle" then why won't they believe God who also gives us " wine that makes glad the heart of man", Psalms 104:15,16.
Paul also tells the Corinthians to drink in their homes. The Old Testament tells us that God's people can use their tithe for the upkeep of the priests, and the temple for what ever they wished, including wine and Liquor. But they can only do this if they can't make it to the Temple, that time of the year.
On my part a Christian, or non-Christian can drink in my house, but will be put out if they become drunk. One drink a day at suppertime won't hurt anybody that believes having a drink is not a sin. Sure drinking can get you in trouble when you get drunk as we can see with Noah, and Lot. But these men were not drunkards, and I would venture to say with surety they had a drink quite often.
Old Testament saints, and We Christians have great leeway with God on what we can do, as long as we do not endeavor to force on others what He allows us to do; and we should avoid this freedom we have around those who choose to believe otherwise.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Ever drank too much grape juice? I have. Guess what? In small amounts, grape juice is healthy for the body. But in larger amounts... it causes the stomach to ache.
A deacon with constant stomach ailments is not as effective as one who is healthy.
May I add a few points to the "drinking" issue as it relates to modern day Americans (especially) and a lesser extent to European countries.
First, there is historical proof that the wind made in the Bible was ferminted for two reasons. A) To allow it to be stored without microbial growth that would either turn it to vinagar or just plain make ruin it as a safe drink. There is also historical proof that the wine of the day was a fifty-fifty cut with grape-juice and in some documents it was cut with water for the specific purpose of lowering the alcoholic content to prevent becoming drunk.
Second, Yes, there is one place where evidence of drinking wine to get drunk is mentioned and that just happens to be the first miracle recorded of the Son of God, Jesus. The statement was made by a guest as to why the "best" wine was used first and the cheaper wine later after the guests were drunk. This does seem to indicate that wine was indeed consumed as a "feel good" beverage during the first century. Let us remember that Jesus would have been right and not sinning if the other guests did not see anything wrong with drinking wine for this purpose, but then we have to deal with several verses mostly found in Proverbs not to drink beyond your capacity of "control" and become a drunken slop (my paraphrase, but I think it fits.)
Now, I used to drink. I could drink anybody I knew under the table. I could drink fifteen different drinks in the same evening and beat anybody at the pool table and even keep my mouth under control.
I would cook steaks, Italian sausage and roast corn on charcoal while having a nice cold six-pack to enjoy (part of which I poured on the meat of course). You can't enjoy your buzz unless you are drinking on an empty stomach. I would ask my six year old daughter to bring me another cold one from the frig which she (being daddy's loving daughter) would jump up, run into the house and open it carefully to make sure it didn't spray me (Did you hear what I just said? She was learning habits from her father.)
Still being a drinker I remember being in Israel at a nice restaurant with a tour group containing both Christians and non-Christians. We had a few people with us that we had been working on to accept Jesus as their Savior. Another group that were with us, sat together at a different table because we were Baptists and they were Catholics and people just tend to stay with the people.
I will never forget that there were several men and women we took along in the hopes of converting to accept Jesus. One had become a friend of mine and I had been working with him all week by pointing out the place we think that Jesus may have been killed. I was sick the first week with a protozoa and missed a lot of side trips, but God answers prayers and we were allowed to go where we wanted for a couple of extra days in the old city of Jerusalem, where we met a very nice Christian Arab (who was an Israeli citizen, by the way--many people don't realize there are lots of Arabs that are Israeli citizens and who fight right next to the Jews during a war.
One of the non-Christians pointed (discretely) at the Catholic group and said, "Look, those people are drinking; obviously if I become a Christian, the Catholic group is not the right group or they wouldn't be sitting there blatantly drinking booze--they sound like a bunch of hypocrits to me. ) I tried to defend them and say, well I don't think they have a problem with a little wine with their food since most are only ordering one glass. He turned to me as serious as the sun rises and says: "No, I don't care. I'm trying to find out which of your groups are right before I even think about making that committment and to sit there and blantantly drink in public does not seem to be the Christian thing to do.
Now, my point is NOT whether the Bible says we can drink or not, but it says (and I'll again use my own thoughts on this) to pluck out your eye or whatever else if it is going to hurt your Christian witness.
Another time, just this last year an engineer who is an evolutionionist who says that God could not exist, and every Christian I have met is a hypocrit anyway. I had a new neighbor move in and this engineer who does not believe in God was giving me a ride. The neighbor was standing in his front yard having a "cool-one" (And in Oklahoma, regular beer is only 3.2%--that was so Oklahoma could sell beer at that level of alcohol and it is classified as "non-intoxicating". To buy regular 6% beer, it cannot be sold cold, nor can it be sold by a regular store--it must be purchased at a liquor store. So, people move to Oklahoma are surprised at the lower alcohol beer and think its funny until they find out that we were drinking beer throughout the prohibition (and bootlegging it to other states) because three-two beer (as its called) is identified by state law as a non-intoxicating drink. You can drink three-two in state parks, but you better not get caught with a bottle or glass of rum in a state park.
finally, everybody in Oklahoma who drinks knows you can get JUST AS WASTED on 3.2 as you can on what is known as Liquor store beer--the only downside is the number of visits to the rest-room.
That man, who was driving me home had never discussed drinking with me, but he pointed at my neighbor with his 3.2 beer can in his hand and his friend with a 3.2 can (much like you see on certain cartoons while the men stand in the alley and talk). I will never forget what he said without being prompted: "Well, looks like you have your missionary work cut out for you. Obviously, your next door neighbor isn't a Christian or he wouldn't be standing there drinking beer in front of the whole town.
It struck me that, whether or not the Bible "legalizes beer or wine in the OT" or even the new; does not the Bible warn us from doing anything that will harm your witness to non-Christians?
Let me tell you that regardless of whether that young engineer becomes a Christian or remains an athiest--some of his blood will be on the hands of the man with the single beer can in his hand.
I told my wife I was going to quit drinking because I was training my girls that it was okay to drink and if any of them continued to do it when they got big and became alcoholics (or already had alcoholic tendencies) then their blood might be on my hands because I not only did something that may have been okay in Biblical times due to storage of the juice and obviously there wasn't much problem with it.
I live in the Bible belt and work with people from all over the world. I would say that in a group of 350 people I know of two that I actually believe are TRUE Christians and they laugh at us, calling us hypocrits if they dare see us with a cold six-pack, or a mug of beer at the steak house. Let alone a fifty dollar glass of wine at one of our Italian resataurants.
People are watching you...brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you like John the Baptist and Jesus Himself? Can a person tell you are a Christian, because whether you like it or not, they are watching you and they want you to mess up and drink or cuss or any other reason they can justify their theory that Christians are nothing more than dumb-hicks who believe something as archaic as a 2000 year old book.
God has given them a longing (for lack of a better term) for God and any excuse they can use to not have to accept the "narrow path" they will and hypocritical Christians just give them one more excuse.
Believe me folks, its not just the government that is watching you!!!
. . . just my thoughts on the subject and to boil it down to one sentence: If you do anything that is questionable and harms our testamony, the blood of those who do not accept him just may be on our hands.
Today, people are watching us carefully just to see how liberal and how much entertainment we will bring into the churches in an attempt to loose a battle that has already been won; but, how many soldiers are we going to loose before Jesus says, as He did in the day of Noah---that's enough.
So, go enjoy your wine, but look around and see how many people would just love to see you play the part of a hypocrit while calling yourself a Christian.
First, there is historical proof that the wind made in the Bible was ferminted for two reasons. A) To allow it to be stored without microbial growth that would either turn it to vinagar or just plain make ruin it as a safe drink. There is also historical proof that the wine of the day was a fifty-fifty cut with grape-juice and in some documents it was cut with water for the specific purpose of lowering the alcoholic content to prevent becoming drunk.
Second, Yes, there is one place where evidence of drinking wine to get drunk is mentioned and that just happens to be the first miracle recorded of the Son of God, Jesus. The statement was made by a guest as to why the "best" wine was used first and the cheaper wine later after the guests were drunk. This does seem to indicate that wine was indeed consumed as a "feel good" beverage during the first century. Let us remember that Jesus would have been right and not sinning if the other guests did not see anything wrong with drinking wine for this purpose, but then we have to deal with several verses mostly found in Proverbs not to drink beyond your capacity of "control" and become a drunken slop (my paraphrase, but I think it fits.)
Now, I used to drink. I could drink anybody I knew under the table. I could drink fifteen different drinks in the same evening and beat anybody at the pool table and even keep my mouth under control.
I would cook steaks, Italian sausage and roast corn on charcoal while having a nice cold six-pack to enjoy (part of which I poured on the meat of course). You can't enjoy your buzz unless you are drinking on an empty stomach. I would ask my six year old daughter to bring me another cold one from the frig which she (being daddy's loving daughter) would jump up, run into the house and open it carefully to make sure it didn't spray me (Did you hear what I just said? She was learning habits from her father.)
Still being a drinker I remember being in Israel at a nice restaurant with a tour group containing both Christians and non-Christians. We had a few people with us that we had been working on to accept Jesus as their Savior. Another group that were with us, sat together at a different table because we were Baptists and they were Catholics and people just tend to stay with the people.
I will never forget that there were several men and women we took along in the hopes of converting to accept Jesus. One had become a friend of mine and I had been working with him all week by pointing out the place we think that Jesus may have been killed. I was sick the first week with a protozoa and missed a lot of side trips, but God answers prayers and we were allowed to go where we wanted for a couple of extra days in the old city of Jerusalem, where we met a very nice Christian Arab (who was an Israeli citizen, by the way--many people don't realize there are lots of Arabs that are Israeli citizens and who fight right next to the Jews during a war.
One of the non-Christians pointed (discretely) at the Catholic group and said, "Look, those people are drinking; obviously if I become a Christian, the Catholic group is not the right group or they wouldn't be sitting there blatantly drinking booze--they sound like a bunch of hypocrits to me. ) I tried to defend them and say, well I don't think they have a problem with a little wine with their food since most are only ordering one glass. He turned to me as serious as the sun rises and says: "No, I don't care. I'm trying to find out which of your groups are right before I even think about making that committment and to sit there and blantantly drink in public does not seem to be the Christian thing to do.
Now, my point is NOT whether the Bible says we can drink or not, but it says (and I'll again use my own thoughts on this) to pluck out your eye or whatever else if it is going to hurt your Christian witness.
Another time, just this last year an engineer who is an evolutionionist who says that God could not exist, and every Christian I have met is a hypocrit anyway. I had a new neighbor move in and this engineer who does not believe in God was giving me a ride. The neighbor was standing in his front yard having a "cool-one" (And in Oklahoma, regular beer is only 3.2%--that was so Oklahoma could sell beer at that level of alcohol and it is classified as "non-intoxicating". To buy regular 6% beer, it cannot be sold cold, nor can it be sold by a regular store--it must be purchased at a liquor store. So, people move to Oklahoma are surprised at the lower alcohol beer and think its funny until they find out that we were drinking beer throughout the prohibition (and bootlegging it to other states) because three-two beer (as its called) is identified by state law as a non-intoxicating drink. You can drink three-two in state parks, but you better not get caught with a bottle or glass of rum in a state park.
finally, everybody in Oklahoma who drinks knows you can get JUST AS WASTED on 3.2 as you can on what is known as Liquor store beer--the only downside is the number of visits to the rest-room.
That man, who was driving me home had never discussed drinking with me, but he pointed at my neighbor with his 3.2 beer can in his hand and his friend with a 3.2 can (much like you see on certain cartoons while the men stand in the alley and talk). I will never forget what he said without being prompted: "Well, looks like you have your missionary work cut out for you. Obviously, your next door neighbor isn't a Christian or he wouldn't be standing there drinking beer in front of the whole town.
It struck me that, whether or not the Bible "legalizes beer or wine in the OT" or even the new; does not the Bible warn us from doing anything that will harm your witness to non-Christians?
Let me tell you that regardless of whether that young engineer becomes a Christian or remains an athiest--some of his blood will be on the hands of the man with the single beer can in his hand.
I told my wife I was going to quit drinking because I was training my girls that it was okay to drink and if any of them continued to do it when they got big and became alcoholics (or already had alcoholic tendencies) then their blood might be on my hands because I not only did something that may have been okay in Biblical times due to storage of the juice and obviously there wasn't much problem with it.
I live in the Bible belt and work with people from all over the world. I would say that in a group of 350 people I know of two that I actually believe are TRUE Christians and they laugh at us, calling us hypocrits if they dare see us with a cold six-pack, or a mug of beer at the steak house. Let alone a fifty dollar glass of wine at one of our Italian resataurants.
People are watching you...brothers and sisters in Christ. Are you like John the Baptist and Jesus Himself? Can a person tell you are a Christian, because whether you like it or not, they are watching you and they want you to mess up and drink or cuss or any other reason they can justify their theory that Christians are nothing more than dumb-hicks who believe something as archaic as a 2000 year old book.
God has given them a longing (for lack of a better term) for God and any excuse they can use to not have to accept the "narrow path" they will and hypocritical Christians just give them one more excuse.
Believe me folks, its not just the government that is watching you!!!
. . . just my thoughts on the subject and to boil it down to one sentence: If you do anything that is questionable and harms our testamony, the blood of those who do not accept him just may be on our hands.
Today, people are watching us carefully just to see how liberal and how much entertainment we will bring into the churches in an attempt to loose a battle that has already been won; but, how many soldiers are we going to loose before Jesus says, as He did in the day of Noah---that's enough.
So, go enjoy your wine, but look around and see how many people would just love to see you play the part of a hypocrit while calling yourself a Christian.
Not all of it. Acts 2:13
Let's actually take a look at the passages and see if it says anything about having a stomach ailment:
1 Timothy 3:
Nope - sorry - don't see anything about health in here.
Nothing there either.
For the wives from Titus 2:
Don't see anything here about belly aches either.
To give an argument that "not given to much wine" means that they shouldn't drink too much grape juice or else they'll get stomach aches and thus won't be able to serve the kingdom well is asinine. Seriously.
Philip - in those cases, were the unbelievers correct in their thinking that Christians cannot be Christians if they drink? I understand why you chose to gave up alcohol but why not additionally show those people the Scriptures and clear up their misunderstanding? Just today I spoke to a young man at church who was completely unsaved, had never been in church and I handed him a Bible. He said that wasn't a real Bible I gave him - because it wasn't a KJV. I was able to explain to him briefly the translations and the issues behind them and he fully understood and happily took the NIV - and it looks like he will be meeting with DH this week and will most likely be saved. 
He just had some wrong information and it was very simple to clear that up.
I've experienced that a lot. Christians can't dance. Christians can't listen to music. Christians can't wear bathing suits. Christians can't eat meat on Friday. All sorts of laws that Christians are to follow - according to the world. Isn't it better to show them Christ and what He has to say about things? That's what I've done with my children and their friends about alcohol. I teach them what the Bible says and then I teach them about cultural wisdom and our freedom to set our liberty aside for others. When they understand the whole issue, they can make wise choices rather than putting a big red X over a bunch of things or activities.
He just had some wrong information and it was very simple to clear that up.I've experienced that a lot. Christians can't dance. Christians can't listen to music. Christians can't wear bathing suits. Christians can't eat meat on Friday. All sorts of laws that Christians are to follow - according to the world. Isn't it better to show them Christ and what He has to say about things? That's what I've done with my children and their friends about alcohol. I teach them what the Bible says and then I teach them about cultural wisdom and our freedom to set our liberty aside for others. When they understand the whole issue, they can make wise choices rather than putting a big red X over a bunch of things or activities.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Must've been the ill wind that blows I've heard tell of.
saturneptune
New Member
Yes, Cold Duck and Ripple have a lot more class.
saturneptune
New Member
The whole post was excellent. The quote is how I look at the subject, not an endless technical argument on whether or not the Bible teachs moderation or no alcohol.
In vino veritas....
Argue all you want, but it does ruin your testimony when it causes the "lost", who equate sobriety with Christianity, to wrinkle up and frown. They don't know or care HOW MUCH you have consumed, they just see you doing what the "world" does without much thought or care. We are supposed to be seperate from the world.
My Pastor says he won't even have a "virgin" drink because it looks like the real thing with the cherries and umbrellas...etc. - It is a bad reflection on one's testimony to try and be like the "world".
Note: having been once married to an alcoholic who insisted he was a "one drink "person, I highly doubt that anyone can justify consumption of alcohol to me ever - saved or unsaved. Your judgment is impaired after one drink, people.
If you want the lost to want what we have, we must show them that we are happy without the world's temptations. Living in God's will means keeping our eyes on what HE would have us to do, and I know he doesn't want us to be stumbling blocks for our lost friends.
My Pastor says he won't even have a "virgin" drink because it looks like the real thing with the cherries and umbrellas...etc. - It is a bad reflection on one's testimony to try and be like the "world".
Note: having been once married to an alcoholic who insisted he was a "one drink "person, I highly doubt that anyone can justify consumption of alcohol to me ever - saved or unsaved. Your judgment is impaired after one drink, people.
If you want the lost to want what we have, we must show them that we are happy without the world's temptations. Living in God's will means keeping our eyes on what HE would have us to do, and I know he doesn't want us to be stumbling blocks for our lost friends.
Not only that, using this is blatant cherry-picking.
No one yet has said what good comes from drinking wine.
Blatant cherry picking? God said it is good. In any context, it is good. How can someone condemn that which God says is good?
...yet in many places it is a curse to not have it. Go figure.
I also recall God saying it gladdens the heart of man.
Why has NOT ONE person actually touched my post where I listed all of the passages of Scripture?
What is Judge Smails preferred beverage?
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