BrotherRich
New Member
The London Baptist Confession of 1689 spells it out quite clearly.
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The Elect --- Question 1
- Thread starter Crabtownboy
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So can I assume that believing a cab driver can get me to the airport will make me "God's Workmanship" or perhaps it will make me a soldier of Allah or a servant of Satan. Your reasoning is utter nonsense. You might as well :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::BangHead: to believe as you do.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Very true but don't expect many on this Forum to agree. According to their reasoning God is not really Sovereign. I only wish they could understand what Job was told: Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? [Job 38:2]
I said to define "faith." I didn't say to define it within the limits of the metaphysical. Why are you putting metapysical parameters around the word "faith" when it is not required to do so? Not all of life is a religion.
So, you accept verses 1-4 of Psalms 14 because they agree with your doctrine, and ignore verses 5-7 because they do not? Do you think that wise?
Paul in Romans was not saying 100% of men are totally wicked and reject God.
Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
You see here that Paul is not saying that 100% of men are wicked. He speaks of those who do well and seek for glory, honor, immortality, and eternal life in vs. 7. He speaks of men who work good in vs. 10. He speaks of those who not only hear, but do God's word in vs. 13, and says the Gentiles who obey the law show they have the law written on their hearts in vs. 14-15.
So Paul was never saying that 100% of men are always evil as Calvinism teaches. You cannot pull a few verses out of context to prove your doctrine.
Now, I am not saying that those that do good were not influenced by the word of God. They most certainly were. But all men have the ability to hear and obey God's word if they choose so. God gets all the credit, because he provided his word as a guide to those who seek to do good.
Even Cain could have done good. But God spoke to him first and said if he would do well he would be accepted. So in no way do I believe that man is good outside the influence of God. But the scriptures show many examples of unsaved men who sought God. Cornelius sought God and was very devout, although he did not have the Holy Spirit until Peter came and preached to him. He was not saved, he was following the Old Testament scriptures and did not know of Christ until Peter came to him.
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That's silly. A cab driver does not have the ability to give you eternal life. It is the object of our faith that is important.
Go through any good concordance and look up the words trust and faith. You will see that the exact same word with the exact same definition is used of men who trust in idols as is used to describe faith in God.
Jer 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Psa 115:4 Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.
5 They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:
6 They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:
7 They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.
8 They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.
The word trusteth here, used of man in Jer 17:5 and of idols in Psa 115 is the same exact word as used in Psalms 84:12
Psa 84:12 O LORD of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.
Faith is not some kind of supernatural force. Faith or trust is the ability to depend or rely upon someone or something else. When you fly on an airliner, you are trusting that aircraft and the pilots that fly it with your life. When you deposit money in the bank you are trusting that they will safely keep it for you and that you can return and withdraw it.
When you get married, you trust your spouse's promise that they will always be faithful to you.
We exercise faith every day. But it is the object of faith that matters in salvation. We cannot trust ourselves to get us to heaven or our good works. We must trust in Jesus Christ and him alone to get us there.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Faith is believing in the cab driver or believing in God according to you and DHK. So who knows what such faith will yield?
I will repeat what I let Martyn Lloyd-Jones tell DHK. I am sure the indisputable logic of his words will impress you as it did him.
Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]
“It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :
Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?
“In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless."
Well, I disagree with Martyn Lloyd-Jones. When you board an airplane, you are trusting your very life into the hands of that aircraft and the pilots that fly it.
You don't get it, Continental Airlines cannot get me to heaven. A taxi driver cannot drive me to heaven. I cannot get myself there, and no false god can get me there. It is only Jesus that has the ability to get me or anyone else to heaven.
Faith is not a force. Faith is a decision. It is the decision to rely upon someone else. I came to Jesus and confessed I was a sinner and asked him to save me. There were many things I trusted and relied upon when I did that. First of all, I trusted that Jesus was indeed the Son of God and rose from the dead and could hear my prayer. If Jesus had been an ordinary man, then when he died he would have remained dead and in no way could help me. I also relied and depended on his power to give me eternal life, to regenerate me, to create me new, a born-again man. I trusted that he will keep his promise and save me, even though I am a wicked sinner. I also trust and depend upon him to help me overcome sin in my life and mature as a Christian.
I am not doing anything whatsoever, Jesus is doing 100% of this for me. This is what faith is, it is to rely or depend upon someone else. It is not a work, it is a ceasing from all work and self-effort and depending on Jesus to do for me what I am not able to do for myself.
When I fly on a plane, I don't do any work. I sit down in the seat and depend upon the plane and pilots to get me safely to my destination. I don't flap my arms like a bird to make the plane fly.
Anyone can trust, because trust is really not doing anything for yourself, it is depending on others to do for you.
I don't think you Calvinists understand what faith is.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Romans 3:12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The Psalmist wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Psalm 14:2, 3
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Winman
You seem to have difficulty understanding that the Bible talks about two classes of people, those who are redeemed and those who are not. These two classes of people may be considered in any passage of Scripture. That is the case in Psalms 14 and the passage from Romans 2. You seemed to have difficulty differentiating between the two classes.
The Apostle Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Romans 3:12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The Psalmist wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:
Psalm 14:2, 3
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Winman
You seem to have difficulty understanding that the Bible talks about two classes of people, those who are redeemed and those who are not. These two classes of people may be considered in any passage of Scripture. That is the case in Psalms 14 and the passage from Romans 2. You seemed to have difficulty differentiating between the two classes.
It's not meaningless. This is what we did when we put our faith in Christ. We took all the information, or revelation God gave us of Himself (creation, scripture, historical facts, the witness of others, and the drawing of the Holy Spirit) and understood that the desired event would happen, which was the promise of God for eternal life through Jesus Christ.
God does not zap faith into us. We have a choice to believe or not.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I thought you would but that is your misfortune. I bet you even have faith that you can drive a car!
Who knows. If your faith is misplaced they might get you there quicker!:laugh:
Who said it was? The Word of Faith people!
I thought you said it was belief or trust!
How do you know that the Holy Spirit had not New Birthed or regenerated you, made you realize that you were a sinner, and gave you the faith to believe? You don't! There is no way you can honestly believe otherwise.
Jesus Christ told Nicodemus:
John 3:6-8
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Now tell me that Jesus Christ was misleading Nicodemus when HE said:The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
We know that GOD is Sovereign in Salvation not Winman! We understand that Salvation is of GOD not of MAN!
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
So you think that just agreeing with the historical reality of Jesus Christ is Salvation? James said: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[James 2:19]
I will ask you the same question that I posed to Winman.
How do you know that the Holy Spirit had not New Birthed or regenerated you, made you realize that you were a sinner, and gave you the faith to believe? You don't! There is no way you can honestly believe otherwise.
Jesus Christ told Nicodemus:
John 3:6-8
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Now tell me that Jesus Christ was misleading Nicodemus when HE said: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
I have no difficulty understanding it at all. But what you seem to overlook is that the Holy Spirit was not given to believers in the Old Testament. Only a select few like the prophets had the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit did not always stay with a man then, as in the case of king Saul.
What this shows is that a man does not have to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe. In fact, it is absolutely shown to be the case in scripture.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Here Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that would be given to believers. Many people believed on Jesus before he was crucified, the scriptures say so many times. But none of these people could receive the Spirit until Jesus was glorified.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Many of these Samaritans believed on Jesus, and the scriptures even tell us why. Does it say because they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit? NO. It says they believed because of the words of the Samaritan woman who met Jesus at the well. Faith comes by hearing.
John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
These people believed, does it say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have this ability? NO. It says they were convinced by his miracles. But they knew the scriptures beforehand, they were looking for the promised Christ.
John 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
These folks believed, does it say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit? NO. They believed when they saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead.
In all of these cases it explains why the people believed. Not once does it mention the Holy Spirit regenerating them. So there were many hundreds, if not thousands of Jews who believed on Christ before he was crucified.
And none of these believers except the apostles had the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost.
You won't accept this, but it shows that people can believe without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as your doctrine teaches.
Yes, many thousands in the Old Testament also believed on God, and trusted in the promised Christ. They were saved, but they did not have the Holy Spirit.
And this is a personal belief of mine, but I believe when Jesus led captivity captive and gave gifts to men, that this is speaking of the Holy Spirit that was given to those who were waiting in Paradise until Jesus ascended.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I can't be dogmatic about this, but I believe when Jesus ascended to his father, he led those OT saints that had been held captive in Paradise to heaven with him, and gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same gift he gave to living believers on the day of Pentacost.
What this shows is that a man does not have to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe. In fact, it is absolutely shown to be the case in scripture.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Here Jesus spoke of the Holy Spirit that would be given to believers. Many people believed on Jesus before he was crucified, the scriptures say so many times. But none of these people could receive the Spirit until Jesus was glorified.
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.
Many of these Samaritans believed on Jesus, and the scriptures even tell us why. Does it say because they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit? NO. It says they believed because of the words of the Samaritan woman who met Jesus at the well. Faith comes by hearing.
John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
These people believed, does it say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have this ability? NO. It says they were convinced by his miracles. But they knew the scriptures beforehand, they were looking for the promised Christ.
John 11:45 Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.
These folks believed, does it say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit? NO. They believed when they saw Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead.
In all of these cases it explains why the people believed. Not once does it mention the Holy Spirit regenerating them. So there were many hundreds, if not thousands of Jews who believed on Christ before he was crucified.
And none of these believers except the apostles had the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost.
You won't accept this, but it shows that people can believe without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit as your doctrine teaches.
Yes, many thousands in the Old Testament also believed on God, and trusted in the promised Christ. They were saved, but they did not have the Holy Spirit.
And this is a personal belief of mine, but I believe when Jesus led captivity captive and gave gifts to men, that this is speaking of the Holy Spirit that was given to those who were waiting in Paradise until Jesus ascended.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I can't be dogmatic about this, but I believe when Jesus ascended to his father, he led those OT saints that had been held captive in Paradise to heaven with him, and gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit, the same gift he gave to living believers on the day of Pentacost.
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No. I believe I posted a few other things as well.
I know I had not been birthed before I believed because that is not biblical. However, it was the Holy Spirit that made me aware that I was a sinner. That is the drawing of the Holy Spirit.
How do you know that you were birthed before you believed? There is no scripture that says such.
Why would I say that Jesus had misled Nicodemus? The point Jesus was making was that the new birth is not physical, it's spiritual and as such cannot be observed in the physical sense. You cannot "see" the new birth. You can only observe the effects of it. Just like the wind that you cannot "see", but you observe it's effects.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Try reading Ephesians 2:1-8 without a closed mind!
I know how I believed on Christ. I heard the preaching of the word of God about sin and the penalty of sin which is death. It scared me to death. I almost ran down at the invitation and once there was shown the Romans road. I believed the scriptures that I was a sinner, I was young then and relatively innocent, but I knew I had sinned, I had lied before, I had been disobedient to my parents. And I understood that was enough to condemn me to hell. And I believed the scriptures that Jesus was the Son of God and died for my sins. I had heard that Jesus was the Son of God years before and believed that. But I had been taught that if I was a good person I would go to heaven. It was the preaching of the word of God that showed me I was indeed a sinner and in great peril. And I believed Jesus died for me that my sins might be forgiven and prayed and asked him to forgive my sins and come into my heart. I was a boy then, this was about 45 years ago, but I can clearly remember that day.
So I believed just as the Bible teaches, from hearing the word of God.
And when you read the account in John 3 of Jesus telling Nicodemus about the new birth, what is the only effect Jesus shows that a man can be aware of? Jesus says you can hear the sound thereof. This is the word of God which a man can hear. Even a deaf man can hear through reading the scriptures.
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus said the Spirit is like the wind, you can't see it, but you can hear it with your ears. This is the word of God, faith comes by hearing. Then in verses 11 and 12 Jesus mentions speaking and testifying. He says if I have "told you". Notice how many times it says "I say unto thee". Notice Jesus asks if he told him earthly things and he believed not, how should he believe if he told him heavenly things. So Jesus expected Nicodemus to believe what he was told.
Do you not see how many times it is shown that the Spirit is received through hearing the word of God? It says not one word of being regenerated.
And when Jesus said a man must be born of the water and the Spirit, I believe the water mentioned is the word of God.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
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There is nothing in those verses that says a person is birthed or reborn before they believe.
In fact, Eph. 2:8 says just the opposite.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
It does not say that we are faithed through salvation.
SolaSaint
Well-Known Member
Hi all, I hope you all don't mind if I jump in the conversation. Christians for 400 years now have argued over this issue and I guess we always will until Christ returns. However I side in the Calvinist camp and I just want to say, "I would rather place my salvation in God's hands and not upon what I did." I truly feel sorry for those who believe they can lose their salvation. If I felt that way I would never sleep and probably go stark raving mad. But that is me, I pray for us all to better understand the holy scriptures on this issue.
I don't believe that there is one person in this discussion who believes that they can lose their salvation. Nor do I believe that there is one person in this discussion who does not believe that salvation is wholly all of God.
Jesus paid it all.
huh???????????