Regeneratoin

[Benefactor]

This topic is not stranger to this board. However, and in all fairness Calvinist have to admit they cannot prove from Scripture their position in and of Scripture that regeneration precedes faith. We do, on the other hand, have proof that the opposite it true if we simply accept what Scripture teaches.

Is there a Calvinist who is willing to admit this and acknowledge that they approach it from an “other than” Scripture view to support the noting they posit?

 

[Allan]

This topic is not stranger to this board. However, and in all fairness Calvinist have to admit they cannot prove from Scripture their position in and of Scripture that regeneration precedes faith. We do, on the other hand, have proof that the opposite it true if we simply accept what Scripture teaches.

Is there a Calvinist who is willing to admit this and acknowledge that they approach it from an “other than” Scripture view to support the noting they posit?

In all fairness, not all Calvinists/Reformed believe regeneration precedes faith.
Granted a good many do but I think that gap is 'slowly' narrowing, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Benefactor]

In all fairness, not all Calvinists/Reformed believe regeneration precedes faith.
Granted a good many do but I think that gap is 'slowly' narrowing, but that is just my opinion.

Perhaps I was to narrow in what I said. I think I remember reading or hearing that John MacArthur sees regeneration following faith. Do you know if this is the case or not?

 

[Allan]

Perhaps I was to narrow in what I said. I think I remember reading or hearing that John MacArthur sees regeneration following faith. Do you know if this is the case or not?

I don't believe he does... and after searching the web for about 20 minutes I still can't find anything that states such.

Many others do and have however with a few notable names such as Chafer, and Millard Erickson (both have written books on theology that are used in Christian colleges and seminaries). John Dagg is noted for stating the faith must precede regeneration in his "Manual of Theology":

Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James[140] uses the term, may precede.

Emphasis mine.

But if I remember correctly he believes regeneration is a process and not a single act, thus faith would of necessity come before total regeneration in his view. It is a little different he still maintains/ed that faith must precede regeneration.

Dr. B.H.Carrol is another (Founder of SouthWestern Baptist theological seminary in Fort Worth) who denied and refuted regeneration preceding faith. Here is a snippet from his work "Interpretations of the English Bible:

...Again, John 1:12, 13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This teaching may be put into a syllogism, thus:

Every one born of God has the right to be called a child of God.
But no one has the right until he believes in Jesus.
Therefore the new birth is not completed without faith.

The true scriptural position then is this:

There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 10, pages 286, 287).

I did find it interesting that his point against it is the very same thing I have been saying here and other places, even though he wasCalvinst and I am not. To be fair though he a better label might be a 'modified Calvinist' though many contended (like Founders) he was a a mainstream Calvinist. In either case here is what he stated that I to have been saying and this is from the same work but was written prior to what I have already quoted above:

But while insisting on the necessity and reality of this initial and direct power of the Spirit, if one should hold that this is not what the Scriptures call the new birth he would be able to support his view by many scriptures. This appears from the fact that when one is born into the kingdom of God he is fully a child of God. But if the subject of the hew birth is passive only – if regeneration is completed without the use of means and before the subject is penitent or believing, then we have a child of God who is yet in his sins, impenitent, without faith, and hence without Christ, which is philosophically impossible

and biblically improbable.

 

[OldRegular]

John Dagg is noted for stating the faith must precede regeneration in his "Manual of Theology":

Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James[140] uses the term, may precede.

Emphasis mine.

But if I remember correctly he believes regeneration is a process and not a single act, thus faith would of necessity come before total regeneration in his view. It is a little different he still maintains/ed that faith must precede regeneration.

The above quotation from Dagg is misleading. He says that faith must precede regeneration when this is understood in its widest sense, that is when regeneration is understood as Salvation. It has been stated over and over on this Forum that faith is an essential and necessary part of Salvation but some choose to ignore that assertion.

On the same page, 279, and prior to the above quote Dagg states:

The term regeneration is sometimes used in a comprehensive sense, as including the whole formation of the Christian character. At other times it is used for the first production of divine love in the heart. In the latter sense, the work is instantaneous. There is a moment known only to God, when the first holy affection exists in the soul.

Dagg further notes, Section IV, Regeneration. page 277:

“IN ALL WHO ARE FINALLY SAVED, THE HOLY SPIRIT PRODUCES A GREAT MORAL CIIANGE, BY WHICH TIIEY BECOME INCLINED TO HOLINESS.

In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. Pardon, justification, and adoption, are changes in a man's condition; but if no other change were wrought, the man would remain a slave to sin, and unfit for the service and enjoyment of God. Grace, therefore, does not stop with a mere change of condition, but it effects also that change in the character, without which the individual could not participate in the holy enjoyments of heaven, or be fitted for the society of the blessed. [Emphasis mine]

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change of heart; and they signify it with various shades of meaning. It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh; [Ezekiel 36:26] giving a new heart;[Exekiel 43:31] putting the law in the heart; [Hebrews 8:10] quickening or making alive; [John 6:63; Ephesians 2:1; Romans 6:11, 13] a resurrection from the dead; an illuminiation;[Hebrews 10:32] a conversion; or turning back to God. [Matthew. 18:3; Isaiah 59:20] So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature [2 Corinthians 5:17] as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, [Colossians 3:10] as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed. With reference to the mode in which the descendants of Adam come into the world, the change is denominated regeneration; [Titus 3:5] and the subjects of it are said to be born again. [John 3:7]

The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. [Romans 5:5] No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders thc man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God. [1 John 4:7]

The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our investigation. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, or whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” [Joihn 3:8]

We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth.” [James 1:18] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impnrt. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in theheart.

So you see Allan Dagg does not maintain that faith precedes regeneration.

 

[Winman]

No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart

That is easily shown false. Cornelius is a great example that contradicts this.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Cornelius wasn't saved here. Yet he was very devout and feared God. He gave alms and prayed to God always. But he was not saved and did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came and preached to him.

Acts 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Cornelius wasn't saved, yet he was very devout and sought God. And Peter in verse 35 says that all men everywhere who fear God and work righteousness are accepted with God.

So there you go right there, this shows the unsaved man is not a slave to sin, and can indeed do good works. They are not all in rebellion to God.

It was only after Peter preached to Cornelius of Christ that the Holy Spirit fell upon him in verse 44. Notice it says "which heard the word". So, as always in scripture, this shows you first hear the word of God, then believe, then receive the Holy Spirit (vs 47). And what exactly did Cornelius hear? Read verse 43, that if he were to believe on Christ he would receive remission or forgiveness of sins.

There is not one word of Cornelius being regenerated to believe here. He was a very devout man who feared God. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he first heard and believed the gospel from Peter.

The doctrine of Total Depravity as held by Calvinists is error and easily shown so by much scripture.

 

[OldRegular]

From remarks by John Dagg
No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart

From post by Winman
That is easily shown false. Cornelius is a great example that contradicts this.

Romans 8:7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[Winman]

Romans 8:7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

That is a good answer.

But what do the next verses say?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did Cornelius have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him before Peter came and preached to him Christ? If so, why do the scriptures say he received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47?

But if Cornelius already had the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him, why did he need to hear the gospel?

 

[annsni]

That is easily shown false. Cornelius is a great example that contradicts this.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Cornelius wasn't saved here. Yet he was very devout and feared God. He gave alms and prayed to God always. But he was not saved and did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came and preached to him.

Acts 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Cornelius wasn't saved, yet he was very devout and sought God. And Peter in verse 35 says that all men everywhere who fear God and work righteousness are accepted with God.

So there you go right there, this shows the unsaved man is not a slave to sin, and can indeed do good works. They are not all in rebellion to God.

It was only after Peter preached to Cornelius of Christ that the Holy Spirit fell upon him in verse 44. Notice it says "which heard the word". So, as always in scripture, this shows you first hear the word of God, then believe, then receive the Holy Spirit (vs 47). And what exactly did Cornelius hear? Read verse 43, that if he were to believe on Christ he would receive remission or forgiveness of sins.

There is not one word of Cornelius being regenerated to believe here. He was a very devout man who feared God. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he first heard and believed the gospel from Peter.

The doctrine of Total Depravity as held by Calvinists is error and easily shown so by much scripture.

However, you are completely contradicting Scripture saying that the natural man IS inclined to God. Yes, he can do good things but it comes from a heart that is not good and thus, as we see in Matthew 6, it is sin. Anything that does not proceed from faith is sin (Romans 14:23). Romans 3 is really clear IMO:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13 "Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2 tells us:

1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

I think Scripture is clear to show where life comes from - and it's not from a dead man.

 

[annsni]

That is a good answer.

But what do the next verses say?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did Cornelius have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him before Peter came and preached to him Christ? If so, why do the scriptures say he received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47?

But if Cornelius already had the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him, why did he need to hear the gospel?

You are arguing the "ordo salutis". Here's an explanation of this from Monergism:

Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of redemption as we are united to Christ which are applied to us by the Holy Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never separate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ). The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption. Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith. All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest). Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like heat and fire. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.

Historically in the Church there has been disagreement about the order of salvation, especially between those in the Reformed and Arminian camps. The following two perspectives of God's order in carrying out His redemptive work reveals the stark contrast between these two main historic views. Keep in mind that both viewpoints are based on the redemptive work which Christ accomplished for His people in history:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.

Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.

 

[OldRegular]

That is a good answer.

But what do the next verses say?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did Cornelius have the Holy Spirit dwelling in him before Peter came and preached to him Christ? If so, why do the scriptures say he received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10:47?

But if Cornelius already had the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him, why did he need to hear the gospel?

When did Peter receive the Holy Spirit?

 

[Winman]

Notice the crucial difference in the orders of regeneration and faith. While the Reformed position believes spiritual life is a prerequisite for the existence of the other aspects of salvation, the Arminians believe that fallen, natural man retains the moral capacity to receive or reject the gospel of his own power. Even with the help of grace he still must find it within himself to believe or reject Christ. This has broad implications and raises questions like why does one man believe and not another? You might also notice that, according to Arminians, election is dependent on faith, not the other way around. This is no small matter ...understanding the biblical order, while keeping in mind its unitary process, is crucial and has a profound impact on how one views God, the gospel, and the Bible as a whole.

This is well put, and I agree it is the difference between Calvinists, and non-Cals (I think of myself as a Bible believer- I do not study the teachings of men).

Cornelius had faith, that is obvious. The scriptures imply that he had worshipped God for a long period, it says he prayed always.

But he did not receive the Holy Spirit until after the heard and believed the gospel.

What I am trying to show is that a man has the ability to have faith. And I think that is shown here.

Gotta go to work.

 

[The Archangel]

That is easily shown false. Cornelius is a great example that contradicts this.

Acts 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Cornelius wasn't saved here. Yet he was very devout and feared God. He gave alms and prayed to God always. But he was not saved and did not receive the Holy Spirit until Peter came and preached to him.

Acts 10:30 And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
31 And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all: )
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Cornelius wasn't saved, yet he was very devout and sought God. And Peter in verse 35 says that all men everywhere who fear God and work righteousness are accepted with God.

So there you go right there, this shows the unsaved man is not a slave to sin, and can indeed do good works. They are not all in rebellion to God.

It was only after Peter preached to Cornelius of Christ that the Holy Spirit fell upon him in verse 44. Notice it says "which heard the word". So, as always in scripture, this shows you first hear the word of God, then believe, then receive the Holy Spirit (vs 47). And what exactly did Cornelius hear? Read verse 43, that if he were to believe on Christ he would receive remission or forgiveness of sins.

There is not one word of Cornelius being regenerated to believe here. He was a very devout man who feared God. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he first heard and believed the gospel from Peter.

The doctrine of Total Depravity as held by Calvinists is error and easily shown so by much scripture.

You have a false assumption here. It is clearly stated that Cornelius "feared God" (v. 2). This means that he, even though a Gentile, worshiped the God of the Israelites.

Cornelius was in no way, shape, or form a "regular" gentile. He was a God-fearer, meaning he already had a relationship of sorts with God (Yahweh).

Your statement is based on a false premise which is based on an improper understanding of the text.

You have neglected some 24 verses, either intentionally or unintentionally...probably the latter, that clearly shows God Himself intervening in the life of Cornelius to bring him into contact with Peter so that Peter would share the Gospel with him.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benefactor]

I don't believe he does... and after searching the web for about 20 minutes I still can't find anything that states such.

Many others do and have however with a few notable names such as Chafer, and Millard Erickson (both have written books on theology that are used in Christian colleges and seminaries). John Dagg is noted for stating the faith must precede regeneration in his "Manual of Theology":
Emphasis mine.

But if I remember correctly he believes regeneration is a process and not a single act, thus faith would of necessity come before total regeneration in his view. It is a little different he still maintains/ed that faith must precede regeneration.

Dr. B.H.Carrol is another (Founder of SouthWestern Baptist theological seminary in Fort Worth) who denied and refuted regeneration preceding faith. Here is a snippet from his work "Interpretations of the English Bible:

I did find it interesting that his point against it is the very same thing I have been saying here and other places, even though he wasCalvinst and I am not. To be fair though he a better label might be a 'modified Calvinist' though many contended (like Founders) he was a a mainstream Calvinist. In either case here is what he stated that I to have been saying and this is from the same work but was written prior to what I have already quoted above:

and biblically improbable.

My Chafer books are well guarded and hard to get to at this point. Erickson, after reviewing again, state that on pages 931 and 933,
"Christian Theology". I need to stop buying books and just re-read the ones I have.

Do you feel the resurgence of Calvinism among the young and restless gravitate more to the belief that regeneration is prior to faith? It seems to be this is the case.

 

[OldRegular]

Spurgeon on Regeneration, the New Birth

Neither is a man regenerated, we say, in the next place, by his own exertions. A man may reform himself very much, and that is well and good; let all do that. A man may cast away many vices, forsake many lusts in which he indulged, and conquer evil habits; but no man in the world can make himself to be born in God; though he should struggle never so much, he could never accomplish what is beyond his power. And, mark you, if he could make himself to be born again still he would not enter heaven, because there is another point in the condition which he would have violated—"unless a man be born of the Spirit, he can not see the kingdom of God." So that the best exertions of the flesh do not reach this high point, the being born again of the Spirit of God.

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

 

[Allan]

The above quotation from Dagg is misleading. He says that faith must precede regeneration when this is understood in its widest sense, that is when regeneration is understood as Salvation.

I disagree. He states in both it broadest sence and in it's restrictest sense, not JUST the broadest sense.

Secondly, it seems to me you and John Daggs have 2 different views of regeneration (maybe not but I seem to remember you stating a person is regenerate and then believes). Thus I presume you believe it is at the point of being made alive and that it is prior to faith but he does not. He states on aspect of regeneration (the strictest sense) is that regeneration is "the production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth;.. "
It seems to me that he also believes that regeneration is not always instant but can take some time at times:

The term regeneration is sometimes used in a comprehensive sense, as including the whole formation of the Christian character. At other times it is used for the first production of divine love in the heart. In the latter sense, the work is instantaneous. There is a moment known only to God, when the first holy affection exists in the soul. Truth may enter gradually, and may excite strong affections in the mind, and may for a time increase the hatred of God which naturally reigns in the heart...
But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences.

The very next thing he states concerning regeneration is that faith MUST precede the regeneration - what he was just discribing:

Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James[140] uses the term, may precede. But a faith which exists before the beginning of spiritual life, cannot be a living faith. Yet some have maintained that faith produces love. This opinion is of sufficient importance to demand a careful consideration

It has been stated over and over on this Forum that faith is an essential and necessary part of Salvation but some choose to ignore that assertion.

I have not and I acknowledge your statement above as true.
But Mr. Daggs view is that regeneration 'begins' when the moving of the heart (love toward God) but also that a person is not truly regenerate until after they have believed. IOW - regeneration is a process which is not complete without the excersizing of faith, even though it can be said to have begun the person is not yet regenerate till they have believed.

So you see Allan Dagg does not maintain that faith precedes regeneration.

Actually from what have read and discussed above it appears he does, and specifically states that 'faith must precede regeneration' both in the widest and in a restricted sense.But as I also said, his view of regeneration is somewhat different than most Cals/Reformed since he holds it in the main to be speaking of the process of salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

From Dagg's Manual of Theology, page 279
The term regeneration is sometimes used in a comprehensive sense, as including the whole formation of the Christian character. At other times it is used for the first production of divine love in the heart. In the latter sense, the work is instantaneous. There is a moment known only to God, when the first holy affection exists in the soul. Truth may enter gradually, and may excite strong affections in the mind, and may for a time increase the hatred of God which naturally reigns in the heart...
But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences.

Response by Allan
The very next thing he states concerning regeneration is that faith MUST precede the regeneration - what he was just discribing:

From Dagg's Manual of Theology, page 279
Faith is necessary to the Christian character; and must therefore precede regeneration, when this is understood in its widest sense. Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James[140] uses the term, may precede. But a faith which exists before the beginning of spiritual life, cannot be a living faith. Yet some have maintained that faith produces love. This opinion is of sufficient importance to demand a careful consideration

You are totally misrepresenting what John Dagg says. He is saying that faith must precede regeneration when regeneration is used in the more comprehensive understanding of salvation. Those who believe in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation have never denied that faith is not necessary in Salvation. That is what Dagg is saying above. Salvation includes election, regeneration, the gift of faith through which man responds to the Gospel and is justified, repentance, pardon, adoption, sanctification, union with Jesus Christ, and finally glorification.

In the second sentence of the first quote above Dagg says: At other times it is used for the first production of divine love in the heart. In the latter sense, the work is instantaneous. There is a moment known only to God, when the first holy affection exists in the soul.

That is the New Birth. I quoted what Dagg had to say about that in my initial response.

From Dagg's Manual of Theology, page 277f
In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. Pardon, justification, and adoption, are changes in a man's condition; but if no other change were wrought, the man would remain a slave to sin, and unfit for the service and enjoyment of God. Grace, therefore, does not stop with a mere change of condition, but it effects also that change in the character, without which the individual could not participate in the holy enjoyments of heaven, or be fitted for the society of the blessed.

<snip>

The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. [Romans 5:5] No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders thc man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God. [1 John 4:7]

The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our investigation. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, or whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.” [John 3:8]

We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth.” [James 1:18] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impnrt. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.

So you see Allan Dagg does not maintain that faith precedes regeneration.

Frankly I believe that you are being deliberately contentious.

 

[Allan]

My how you pick and choose what you like to see and ignore the rest.
However I'm not misrepresenting anything, I am quoting him and letting him speak for himself. He is not saying:

Salvation includes election, regeneration, the gift of faith through which man responds to the Gospel and is justified, repentance, pardon, adoption, sanctification, union with Jesus Christ, and finally glorification.

He IS saying that regeneration is the process OF salvation and that without faith one is not yet fully or truly regenerate.
I DO agree with him that faith can not come from someone who is not or has not been stirred by the power of the Holy Spirit in His revealing of the spiritual truths and the love and judgment of God toward us.

Also, yes, he states in the broad sense meaning 'the proccess of salvation' but he ALSO STATES in the restricted sense as well. Please note:

Even in the restricted sense, in which it denotes the beginning of the spiritual life, faith, in the sense in which James[140] uses the term, may precede.

As I said, his view in teh main of regeneration is the process of salvation and that it could also be limited/restricted to a moment in time where it 'begins' but this aspect of regeneration is NOT complete in his view as far as I can see. IOW - His view differs from many Cals/Reformed on this issue but it is still similar in many respects.

 

[kyredneck]

No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart

That is easily shown false. Cornelius is a great example that contradicts this.

Winman, you use an excellent example with Cornelius and inclination to holiness, but, he didn't have a carnal heart, he was a perfect scriptural example of one of these:

(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:14,15

........which is regeneration before belief.

 

[Allan]

(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:14,15

........which is regeneration before belief.

Sorry but this is wrong. The passage you cite has nothing to do with regeneration, but that even carnal men (nations) that did not receive the law like Israel, nor were close enough to hear or know of it still had with in the conscience a basic understanding of the law of God in their hearts. This is why they being a law unto themselves are judged according to these basic premises of the Law because they can't even keep the knock-off twisted version of it.

Again, that passage has nothing to do with regeneration.