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Election: A Glorious Truth for all Christians
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psalms109:31
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All men
We are Christ ambassadors. God want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. I blame us not God. I heard this from numerous people in the world. When they look at us the light of the world who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit act just like the rest of the world. If God didn't change us then why should they follow death. It is so easy to look at the outside instead of within. We should make the world jealous that one of them may be saved. We no longer live to save ourselves but our lives should point others to Jesus. It is so easier to blame God and do exactly what adam and eve did. It was the snake you created, it is the women you made and today this is the way you created me. Who can save me from this body of death? Praise be to Jesus!
We are Christ ambassadors. God want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of truth. I blame us not God. I heard this from numerous people in the world. When they look at us the light of the world who claim to be filled with the Holy Spirit act just like the rest of the world. If God didn't change us then why should they follow death. It is so easy to look at the outside instead of within. We should make the world jealous that one of them may be saved. We no longer live to save ourselves but our lives should point others to Jesus. It is so easier to blame God and do exactly what adam and eve did. It was the snake you created, it is the women you made and today this is the way you created me. Who can save me from this body of death? Praise be to Jesus!
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The question is ultimately irreducible (if the answer lies in man). The alleged answer to any question raises a question of similar nature upon its detail. The only possible answer is "It is because it is."
Are you seriously trying to reduce the Gospel to some seemingly arbitrary thing? The Bible has very strong language concerning the Gospel. The Bible talks of mankind as "none righteous," "in darkness," "love darkness rather than light," "dead in trespasses and sins," and so on. The Bible refers to the work of God as "raising to spiritual life," "quickening," "regeneration," "born again," "adoption," "election," "made children of light," and so on.
The gospel message is unique and its subject matter of utmost importance. Are you trying to say the "choice" of believing the gospel can be explained in terms of one favoring eggplant while another does not? If believing the gospel is such a simple and arbitrary decision or based upon simple natural likings such as one's favorite foods, why would one be accountable for making the "wrong decision"?
It would be like someone at a game show who gets to pick a door at random and receive the prize inside. The person arbitrarily chooses door number three and gets a clunker of a gift that would require gift taxes. That person then complains and says "I do not want this!" The host says, "Well, you picked the door." The person replies, "Yes, but I did not make an informed decision." I picked door number three because I like the number three, not because of what I knew would be behind the door!"
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
AresMan
It appears that some Arminians? want to take the supernatural completely out of Salvation!
It appears that some Arminians? want to take the supernatural completely out of Salvation!
psalms109:31
Active Member
That is the answer that God gave me to your question.
I don't know why people can't simply accept what the scriptures say. The scriptures say men love the pleasures of sin.
Why do people take drugs? Because it feels good.
Why do people steal? Because it is easier than working.
Why do companies sell products they know will harm a person? Money and the pleasures it brings.
It is not that evil men do not know what they are doing, the scriptures say they know what they are doing. But they want to continue to do wrong because they enjoy it. They force any thoughts of God out of their mind and pretend to themselves God does not exist. There are many, many scriptures that show this.
Rom 1: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
God will strive with a man only so long. At a certain point which only God knows, God will give that person up and allow them to be self-deceived. This is clearly what the scriptures teach.
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
What I think I am beginning to see here, is that Calvinism cannot allow that there can be any good in unsaved man. They seem to believe if they admit there is any good in man, that somehow this robs the sovereignty of God.
What I think you fail to realize is that good works do not matter. A person's good works are just that, good works. God wants all men to do good works. God is not offended when you do them.
It is sin that is the problem. No matter how good you are, if you commit even one sin you must pay the penalty which is death. And we all sin.
Believing God's word is good. But that doesn't get you to heaven. You must come to Jesus and trust and depend upon him to get you to heaven.
Paul said king Agrippa knew and believed the scriptures. That was a good thing. But he did not trust Christ to save him.
Acts 26:27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.
Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit said he knew king Agrippa believed the word of God. That is a good thing, it really is. But king Agrippa needed to go one step further and trust on Jesus.
Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.
29 And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.
Cain was not absolutely 100% evil. He could have done good and offered an acceptable sacrifice to God, the Lord himself said so.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain could have done good if he wanted to, he was not absolutely enslaved to sin as Calvinism teaches. God himself said he could do good, and that he would be accepted. God also said that Cain would rule over sin, not the opposite as Calvinism teaches. So, a man has no excuse and can do good if he wants to. I can't shoot somebody and say the devil made me do it the way the comedian Flip Wilson used to joke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEDncCrNMk
Flip must have encountered some Calvinists in his life to come up with this. And he saw how absurd this kind of reasoning is.
No, I am in control of myself and therefore responsible for my actions.
So why did Cain refuse to listen to God? I can't be certain, but I think his big problem was pride. He was the eldest son who received the greater honor. But Abel his younger brother was accepted with God and he wasn't. He didn't like that, he was used to being the preeminent one. He was jealous, and maybe even a little insecure. Perhaps he thought he could never be as good as Abel and so the best thing to do was get rid of him.
That's my best guess, the scriptures do not go into detail. But we do know God said he could have given an acceptable sacrifice if he wanted to.
I do not think the scriptures show a fall in the garden. Man was able to sin from day one, else he would not have sinned. That is plain logic. And after Adam and Eve sinned, the story of Cain shows that man could do good or evil. Man was not enslaved solely to sin as Calvinism teaches.
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Have you ever heard of a typo? I know how to spell lie...it's easy when dealing with you.
How in world did you get me questioning anybody's salvation from my post? Seriously, you need to stop trolling...
That's a rather bold statement which Bible believers of both the Calvinistc and Arminian camps would denounce.
So have you deleted Genesis 3 and other passages out of your Bible translation?!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
We could have an extended debate about your last answer but it would be pointless.
I haven't deleted a thing. I grew up hearing of the fall and just accepted it. But when I read the scriptures, I didn't, and still do not see it.
When Adam and Eve were created, did they have the ability to sin? Of course they did, or else they would not have sinned. That is plain common sense and logic.
Adam and Eve were not created absolutely morally perfect like God, or else we would be God. God cannot be tempted to do evil.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God cannot be tempted to do evil. Adam and Eve could be tempted and were. So obviously man was not created absolutely morally perfects as God is.
And when they sinned, what happened?
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
The scriptures say their eyes were opened and they saw for the first time they were naked. Before they had been like little children. A little child will run around the house (or outside) without a stitch of clothing and is not the least bit embarrassed or ashamed. They are not self-consicous. And little children do not understand right or wrong. They are innocent. A little child will oftentimes hit a brother or sister. That is wrong, but they are not aware of it, they don't understand this. This is how Adam and Eve were. But after sinning, they not only knew they were naked, they also became conscious that they had done wrong and were afraid and ashamed. That is why they hid themselves.
And to know good and evil is not sinful, or else God would be sinful. God said Adam and Eve had become like them, so how could this be sinful?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
If knowing good and evil is evil, then God is evil. So, they did not suddenly turn evil, they already had the ability to sin or else could not have. And they did not lose the ability to do good as the story of Cain shows. They did become guilty, they did become responsible for sin. But I don't see a change in their natures, they could sin before, they could sin after. They could do good before, they could do good after.
So, I do not see a fall. If you see it, please show it to me in this account.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Apparently not!:laugh::laugh:
Trolling? Is that something you do when fishing? Or is it when you hunt those mythical characters who live in caves or under bridges or wherever?:wavey::wavey:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
What if they did? All religions know some truth. Catholics believe Jesus is the Son of God, so if I believe the same does that mean I agree with 100% of Catholic doctrine?
No, you are just trying the ol' guilt by association tactic.
How did Adam and Eve fall?? They had the ability to sin before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and they had the ability to sin afterward.
And the story of Cain shows unsaved man retained the ability to do good if he chose.
So how did man fall?
Adam and Eve only became consicious of good and evil, just like God. So how could this be evil?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
God said man is become like one of us, how can that be evil?
Show me the fall. Where is it? I would love to see it if you can show it.
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I sense a new turn for this thread, a turn towards a wrong, unbiblical view.
So Winman... does Romans 5:12, in fact all of Romans 5, teach a fall.
So Winman... does Romans 5:12, in fact all of Romans 5, teach a fall.
That says death passed upon all men, it does not say sin passed upon man. Read it again.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
And once again, we see scripture reversed. Romans 5:12 says death (not sin) passed upon all men. Why? Because of Adam's sin? No, it says "for that all have sinned". For means because.
It does not say sin passed upon men. That is very important to notice. If Adam's sin passed upon us (or his death sentence), then God would be punishing us for the sins of our father, which the scriptures say God will never do.
Deut 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Trust me, I know how controversial this sounds. I always thought that man was created absolutely morally perfect, and that when Adam sinned man's nature was changed. I believed this just like most people.
Then one day I realized that Adam and Eve could not have sinned if this were so. God cannot be tempted to do evil. So, if man was created exactly morally perfect like God is, the serpent could have tempted them all he wanted to, but they would never sin.
So, obviously they were not absolutely perfect when created. Were they good? Yes. They were sinless. They were innocent.
You cannot have sin without law. The scriptures define sin as the transgression of law.
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Did Adam and Eve have law? Yes. They had one law, they were not permitted to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And God told them the penalty for breaking this law, death. They broke it, and so death passed upon them. This was a legal sentence, just as earthly judges sentence men to death for certain crimes. The law always prescibes the penalty for a certain crime beforehand.
Remember the 60's and all the hippies taking LSD? The law could do nothing, because there were no laws against LSD at the time. They had to write laws before it became illegal. That is how the law works.
But I don't see a difference in their moral natures. They had the ability to sin before they ate of this tree, they had the ability to sin afterward. They had the ability to do good before they ate of the tree, they had the ability to do good afterward.
So, I think man was created with the ability to sin, and we also have the ability to sin. But you are not held accountable for sin until you are old enough to understand right and wrong. I do not believe small children are accountable for sin until they mature.
But Romans 5:12 does not say sin passed upon man, it says death passed upon man because all men have sinned. When we get old enough to understand right from wrong and choose to do wrong and sin, then the death sentence passes upon us also. But not because of Adam, but because of our own sin. That is what Romans 5:12 says, read it carefully and you will see.
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Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
I understand the position, I just think it is against Scripture.
Well, perhaps it is, and if you can show me scripture that shows this error, I will not hold to this position. As I said before, I was always taught that man had fallen, I accepted this myself until I thought on it carefully.
For instance, if man was created absolutely perfect, does this mean he had the Holy Spirit to begin with? If so, then it died. I cannot see this personally. I have a very difficult time believing man was created with the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit cannot die.
Jesus said we must be born again. He speaks of only two natures, the original nature of man born of the flesh, and the new nature born of the Spirit.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
If Adam and Eve fell, then there were three natures. Man's original nature, man's current sinful nature we are born with, and then the new nature given by the Holy Spirit. But Jesus only mentions two natures.
I agree this is very difficult to understand. This is the very subject of Romans 5.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
We see in vs. 12 that it is death that passed on man. Verse 14 is difficult to understand, because vs. 13 says there is no sin imputed without law, yet "nevertheless" death reigned from Adam to Moses. I find that difficult to understand. Also, in vs. 14 I believe it is showing that we are held accountable for our own sin, not Adam's. It does say in vs. 18 that judgement came upon all men by Adam's sin.
So, I am not absolutely clear on all this, this is a very difficult passage to understand. But what I think I understand is this: God gave a very specific penalty for sin, that penalty is death.
Now bare with me, every crime has it's own sentence. If you rob a store for example, your state will have a very specific penalty. Your particular state might prescribe a 5-10 year jail sentence. Another state may only prescibe 2-5 years. If you commit murder, your state may prescribe 20 years to life, another state may prescribe 25 years to life.
I hope you are following me. God prescribed a very specific penalty for sin. That penalty is death. So, no matter what sin you commit, whether it be telling a lie, or stealing something, the specific penalty is death.
So, this is what was passed down to us, a legal penalty or judgement. And this is what Rom 5:18 seems to say.
So, it was not our moral nature that fell, it was our legal standing before God that fell. Man originally was without sin. He had the ability to sin, but sin is not imputed without law. When Adam sinned, his legal standing with God changed. He went from being innocent to guilty. He came under the judgement or penalty (the reign) for sin.
And I personally do not see us any different from Adam. Like him we are born with the ability to sin. We are born of the flesh. But until we are old enough to understand right from wrong, that is, to understand the law, we are not held accountable. But as soon as we are mature enough to understand right from wrong and sin, then we are accountable and come under the sentence or judgement of death, that is, God's very specific judgement for all sin.
And Paul seems to say something like this.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Notice that Paul says he was alive without the law, but when the commandment of law came, then sin revived, having the power to bring the sentence of death upon a man.
This is way off the original subject, and men have debated this for centuries. But I do not see man's moral nature changing in the garden, he could sin before Adam's sin (ability or capacity), he could sin afterward. Man could do good before, he could do good afterward.
No, it is man's legal standing before God that changed.
I could be wrong, and I need to do lots more study on this.
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