So, the one who holds the ultimate power here is man. God is powerless to do effectively bring a man to faith. He can try, but if man doesn't choose, than God loses.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Regeneration: Begotten By God
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
So, the one who holds the ultimate power here is man. God is powerless to do effectively bring a man to faith. He can try, but if man doesn't choose, than God loses.
God gave his word to provide faith to man. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. This does not mean audibly hearing only, it means to listen sincerely with the heart and believe God's word.
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
But men can refuse to listen. That is not God's fault, it is the man's fault.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
Paul here is speaking of the Jews. God had preached to them for thousands of years through his prophets. They heard God's word but disregarded it. So God has gone to the Gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy. The Jews had always considered themselves the elect and chosen, now God is going to the heathen that the Jew despised. They are provoked to jealousy.
Notice in verse 21 that God had stretched out his hands all the day long to Israel, but they refused to come.
God offers salvation to all men, but you must respond and come to Christ when he calls. This is shown a multitude of times in scripture.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
I would hardly say God loses when a man will not come to Christ, it is the man that loses, he loses his soul forever.
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
God does not impose faith on a man as Calvinism teaches. He offers salvation to every man, but every man is responsible to respond to God of his own free will. This is shown over and over again in scripture.
Last edited by a moderator:
In context of that passage, was that what Christ was saying? No.
...and if He has decreed it takes place that way, is He still powerless and less sovereign?
Yes.
If I told my kids they could go see movie A, or movie B, if they chose movie A would they be usurping my authority? No. If they chose movie B would they be usurping my authority? No.
Either way they are being obedient to me, as I allowed them to make that choice themselves. And this is normal, we actually give our kids choices like this everyday.
It is God himself who has given man the choice to make. He requires of us a choice. Will we be saved his way through Christ, or will we choose another way?
You see, choosing God gives him honor, just as when a man chooses to ask a particular girl to be his wife. He has chosen her above all others.
If God causes you to believe, he would be honoring himself.
John 8: 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
And just as it honors a man when a woman chooses him above all others to be her husband, we honor Christ when we choose him to be our husband.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Notice it says his wife has made herself ready.
Last edited by a moderator:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:thumbsup:
Thank you for taking the time to quote these passages. I had forgotten about two of those verses.
I think the argument that God is somehow less powerful or less "sovereign" because he chooses to allow us to have a "free" choice, is totally unfounded. To assume that those who reject the gospel were not given all that was needed for them to acknowledge God as God removes Paul's premise that all men are "without excuse" in Romans 1. In fact, Calvinists give men the PERFECT EXCUSE:
"God I was born Totally Depraved and could not desire you even when approached with the powerful truth of the gospel revelation."
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:applause:
EXACTLY! If my 6 year old daughter is standing up and I want her to sit down I have two choices. I can physically force her to sit or I can tell her to sit and allow her to obey or disobey.
To choose the latter option does not make me weaker or out of control as her father. In fact, when I CHOOSE to let her CHOOSE I exercise my freedom to allow her freedom and IMO that expresses a greater sense of my own control and power, not to mention my love and mercy.
:applause::applause::applause:
EXACTLY! If my 6 year old daughter is standing up and I want her to sit down I have two choices. I can physically force her to sit or I can tell her to sit and allow her to obey or disobey.
To choose the latter option does not make me weaker or out of control as her father. In fact, when I CHOOSE to let her CHOOSE I exercise my freedom to allow her freedom and IMO that expresses a greater sense of my own control and power, not to mention my love and mercy.
...and to add to that, using your analogy, you witness her desire to either obey or disobey you. Love is a choice and is not forced. Obedience is a showing of love, honor and respect.
I think you agree with me...but you did answer "yes" to my question. Faux pas?
I think you agree with me...but you did answer "yes" to my question. Faux pas?
I agree with both you and Skandelon on this matter. :thumbsup:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Further, the whole concept of Divine reward and punishment actually makes sense. I mean, why would I punish her for not sitting if she were deaf and could not willingly obey my command? Not only does the Calvinistic interpretations not make sense but it brings God's justice, holiness and the genuineness of His universal gospel call to faith and repentance into serious question.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And the poor old deaf person is just left out in the cold, or should I say the the lake of fire.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is the basic tenant of Freewillism; it makes God a feckless God!
What an utterly ridiculous statement. What god do you worship anyway?
My God never loses, regardless of what I do.
Does God lose when you sin? I guess He does because you were surely sovereign in that decision huh?
I am surprised you would make such a statement OR.
I think you know what "hear" means.
so, since we are doing analogies, let's try this one which is much closer to being the real situation one is without Christ:
Let's say you have a 3 year old child who is out playing in the yard. You see your little cuttie getting closer and closer to the road. The road looks very attractive. The toy truck will roll much easier on that nice hard road, then it will the grass. You see a big truck coming down the road....and now your child is right in the middle of the road. Would you beg and plead with the child to move, or would usurp that child's precious free will, run out into the road, grab him and move him?
Let's say you have a 3 year old child who is out playing in the yard. You see your little cuttie getting closer and closer to the road. The road looks very attractive. The toy truck will roll much easier on that nice hard road, then it will the grass. You see a big truck coming down the road....and now your child is right in the middle of the road. Would you beg and plead with the child to move, or would usurp that child's precious free will, run out into the road, grab him and move him?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You left out the Scripture that applies to subsequent believers, not intentionally I am sure:
John 17:20, 21, KJV
20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Ok. I'll play. So why does God only run into the road to save some of His children? Is that what you would do? What if 2 of your children are playing in the road? Which one would you save?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is not that they couldn't believe it is that they do not want to believe.
John 3:19, 20, KJV
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Surprise! Surprise!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Depends on whether you believe in Freewillism or not.:tear::tear::tear::tear:
The truth is that the Doctrines of Grace do not teach that GOD violates man's will and drags him kicking and screaming to salvation. [Though I have seen some parents do that to their child when the invitation is given!] GOD changes mans will. That is what Regeneration or the new birth is though the Freewillers are unable to understand. I like the way John Dagg describes the new birth:
Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”
2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Dagg further notes:
“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”
“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”