Another question for Catholics...

[JohnDeereFan]

What do you think of the following quotes:

"The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation" - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control." - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." - 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV

Do you agree with these three "infallible" popes and the Council of Florence that non-Catholics cannot be saved?

 

[Johnv]

Do you agree with these three "infallible" popes and the Council of Florence that non-Catholics cannot be saved?

Even a noncatholic like myself can see the problems in your question. First, the concept of papal infallibility does not extend to these statements. Second, the Council of Florence was 600 years ago. Much of the issues which it addressed were political in nature, including issues concerning the Basel council, and cannot be applied across the board or in perpetuity.

 

[Fignar]

This won't be taken well, I am fully aware, but I will post the truth of the statements. Bear with me please, and don't judge to harshly for these things are not well received most times.

Those statements are true statements. They based upon the belief that all Christians are Catholic Christians. All Christians hold a piece of Catholic belief, as all Christians did come from the Catholic Church at one time. Whether it was during the reformation, the Bible they hold as truth, or the teaching on the Trinity. All these things are considered, by Catholics, as being inheritably Catholic.

So, in short, all Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity, in Christ himself, in the salvation he brings, are still a part of that Catholic *It means universal* Church.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Even a noncatholic like myself can see the problems in your question. First, the concept of papal infallibility does not extend to these statements.

Why not?

Second, the Council of Florence was 600 years ago. Much of the issues which it addressed were political in nature, including issues concerning the Basel council, and cannot be applied across the board or in perpetuity.

Could you please show us where the Catholic church has ever reversed this pronouncement?

Could you also explain why it is that you don't believe Catholics are capable of answering my questions themselves?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Those statements are true statements.

There you have it: non-Catholics cannot be saved.

 

[Fignar]

There you have it: non-Catholics cannot be saved.

*sighs* Did you even read the rest of it? Catholic means Universal. You do consider yourself part of the Universal Church do you not?

So, if you are not a member of the Universal Church, set by Christ, whether you believe it to be an invisible body of Christ or an actual denomination, you can not be saved.

I would think you are part of that Universal Church myself.

 

[Johnv]

Why not?

Papal infallibility does not apply to everything a pope says. It only apples to statements deemed "ex cathedra". The statements you cited were not ex cathedra statements.

Could you please show us where the Catholic church has ever reversed this pronouncement?

There's nothing to "reverse". They weren't statements of perpetuity.

Could you also explain why it is that you don't believe Catholics are capable of answering my questions themselves?

Never said they weren't. Statement by you like that obviously demonstrate that your agenda is not to engage in civil discussion and debate, but instead to espouse a wilfull and open hostility towards anyone who would disagree with you.

 

[annsni]

This won't be taken well, I am fully aware, but I will post the truth of the statements. Bear with me please, and don't judge to harshly for these things are not well received most times.

Those statements are true statements. They based upon the belief that all Christians are Catholic Christians. All Christians hold a piece of Catholic belief, as all Christians did come from the Catholic Church at one time. Whether it was during the reformation, the Bible they hold as truth, or the teaching on the Trinity. All these things are considered, by Catholics, as being inheritably Catholic.

So, in short, all Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity, in Christ himself, in the salvation he brings, are still a part of that Catholic *It means universal* Church.

Then I can accept communion in your church?

 

[Johnv]

Whether a church practices open or closed communion is not necessarily an indicator of bad doctrine (nor is it an indicator of good doctrine).

 

[annsni]

Whether a church practices open or closed communion is not necessarily an indicator of bad doctrine (nor is it an indicator of good doctrine).

Well, since Fignar said "They based upon the belief that all Christians are Catholic Christians." that means that all of us can receive communion in the Catholic church since we're all Catholic Christians.

 

[Johnv]

Not so. Landmarkists frequently hold to closed communion. Some primitive Baptists do as well. So do branches of Lutherans. Menonintes and Amish hold to closed communion, as do some Reformed churches such as CRC congregations.

 

[Fignar]

Then I can accept communion in your church?

It is a gracious statement to try and show unity even though beliefs are so wide spread.

To answer your question, which I assume you already know the answer to, no, you can not.

You must be in FULL communion with the Church to partake in the Eucharist.

Doesn't mean you aren't part of the Church in some manner however, just means you are not in full communion with it.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

*sighs* Did you even read the rest of it? Catholic means Universal. You do consider yourself part of the Universal Church do you not?

Read the statements I quoted. They each specify that they're speaking about the Roman Catholic Church, under the authority of the pope.

In fact, they say: "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41),".

We are not members of the "most Holy Roman Church" and we are the "heretics and schismatics" the statement refers to. That's why your religion pronounced us "anathema". So, clearly, we are the ones the statement says cannot be saved.

To answer your question, which I assume you already know the answer to, no, you can not.

Why not? Where does the Bible say that communion is only for some Christians and not for others?

Papal infallibility does not apply to everything a pope says. It only apples to statements deemed "ex cathedra". The statements you cited were not ex cathedra statements.

So then, the popes are wrong? Fignar, do you agree that the popes were wrong?

There's nothing to "reverse". They weren't statements of perpetuity.

So, when was the expiration date on these pronouncements?

Never said they weren't.

Then why won't you ever let them speak for themselves?

Statement by you like that obviously demonstrate that your agenda is not to engage in civil discussion and debate, but instead to espouse a wilfull and open hostility towards anyone who would disagree with you.

OK. I'll bite: How does asking questions "espouse a wilfull and open hostility towards anyone who would disagree with you"

Then I can accept communion in your church?

Yeah, I ask them that all the time. Funny how they're all love and brotherhood until you ask them to put it to the test.

 

[Melanie]

The infallibility thing is something a lot of folk get in knots over, this is just Catholics I might add. Only in certain situations in relation to doctrinal matters can the Pope speak with such authority. Because of the gravity of the authority it is rarely invoked, after all the Pope must give an account at the day of his judgement to the Eternal Head of the Church.

The Holy Eucharist is bound to the Mystery of Faith...that is the Transubstantiation of matter to the Body and Blood of Our Redeemer. This is a Dogma of the RCC, to receive the Host in an irreverant manner such as unbelief mocks the Lord, so why would a non-Catholic Christian even consider such a sacriledge and imperil his/her soul.

 

[Melanie]

The infallibility thing is something a lot of folk get in knots over, this is just Catholics I might add. Only in certain situations in relation to doctrinal matters can the Pope speak with such authority. Because of the gravity of the authority it is rarely invoked, after all the Pope must give an account at the day of his judgement to the Eternal Head of the Church.

The Holy Eucharist is bound to the Mystery of Faith...that is the Transubstantiation of matter to the Body and Blood of Our Redeemer. This is a Dogma of the RCC, to receive the Host in an irreverant manner such as unbelief mocks the Lord, so why would a non-Catholic Christian even consider such a sacriledge.

 

[Melanie]

oops sorry about the double post, mea culpa:tear:

 

[Tom Butler]

Another question here.

If those of us who are not in full communion with the RCC are denied the Eucharist on that basis, isn't that denying us the means of salvation?

 

[lori4dogs]

This won't be taken well, I am fully aware, but I will post the truth of the statements. Bear with me please, and don't judge to harshly for these things are not well received most times.

Those statements are true statements. They based upon the belief that all Christians are Catholic Christians. All Christians hold a piece of Catholic belief, as all Christians did come from the Catholic Church at one time. Whether it was during the reformation, the Bible they hold as truth, or the teaching on the Trinity. All these things are considered, by Catholics, as being inheritably Catholic.

So, in short, all Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity, in Christ himself, in the salvation he brings, are still a part of that Catholic *It means universal* Church.

Yes, this is the teaching of the Catholic Church. ALL Christians hold at least in part belief in the (little 'c') catholic Church. They hold the Bible as truth, they belief in the Holy Trinity, the Virgin Birth, that Christ died as an atonement for our sins,that after repentence and through faith in Him and Him alone by virtue of his shed blood upon calvary that by faith they are saved by grace. All you Christians (little 'c') are members of the body of Christ, the universal Church, the catholic Church.

Fr. Charles Feeney, a former Roman Catholic Church was ex-communicated for teaching that there was no salvation outside of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. He died in that belief. His monastery's (who held that belief) were also ex-communicated and only after re-canting that belief some of them have been welcomed back into communion with the rest of the Catholic Church.

 

[lori4dogs]

Another question here.

If those of us who are not in full communion with the RCC are denied the Eucharist on that basis, isn't that denying us the means of salvation?

For what reason are you being denied full communion? Are you refusing to amend your life in accordance to God's Holy Word. Refusing to accept God's promise of reconciliation to any and all sinners?

I'm just guessing. If you feel free to share on this board or contact me personally I will be glad to answer what I know with care and concern.

Joy in Jesus,

Lori

 

[lori4dogs]

oops sorry about the double post, mea culpa:tear:

Dominus Vobiscum!