Hmmm - I was in a Presbyterian church for 13 years - was married there - and never head that they believed this at all.
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Is spiritual death from birth, or is it produced in time?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Hmmm - I was in a Presbyterian church for 13 years - was married there - and never head that they believed this at all.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Well, over and over on this board I have shown you verse after verse which speaks of people BECOMING hardened or GROWING calloused, and now becoming "dead" or "producing death" over a period of time and NOT from birth.
All the while no one here has provided even one verse that remotely suggests men are born in a condition where they are unable to willingly accept or believe a divine message sent by God HIMSELF for the purpose of bringing us reconciliation. Seems strange that God wouldn't have mentioned that curse of the Fall. He took the time to mention the labor pains and the need to work the ground, but for some reason it must of slipped his mind to mention that we wouldn't be able to respond to His messages of reconciliation.
I can just imagine that, God says, "Adam and Eve, you sinned and now you know both good and evil. You will have great pain in labor and you will have to work the ground because of your sin."
Adam says, "Uh? I can't understand you God you haven't irresistibly regenerated me and I just can't seem to make out what you are saying."
God responds, "Yes, that has been my plan all along! Because you disobeyed my command you are now totally depraved from birth, you and all your descendants. Not one of you will be able to even desire to believe in me, even if I reveal myself so clearly as to send my Son, the Holy Spirit and a clear message of reconciliation. And so you will all be born without hope of salvation and die to be eternally burned in hell...except a few of you that I will effectually draw to myself."
Adam replies, "What? I believe in you, you are right there in front of me."
God says, "Oh, well you have intellectually consented in my presence, but not until I regenerate you will you really be able to believe in me and understand me again."
Adam exclaims, "Dang it! So your saying I have to mow the lawn ever week?!!? CRAP!" :laugh:
Well, it's obvious through your mocking you haven't a clue as to the doctrine of grace. That's OK. You'll learn it eventually.
I think that the Presbyterians (USA) denomination is the largest Presbyterian denomination and they believe it; See post #12. My infant grandaughter was just baptized in a Presbyterian USA church and I inquired about it. However, some of the smaller Presbyterian denominations may not believe this.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Yes, I was making a serious point with a mocking example...but once again the point goes unanswered. That's OK, You'll learn to answer eventually.
The church we attended was a PCUSA. My husband was even an elder there.
But that is the very point. Without law no sin is imputed.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
I have given the example of LSD back in the 60's. Young people discovered this dangerous drug and were experimenting with it for several years. People were suffering severe mental disorders because of this drug, some committed suicide. But there was nothing the law could do as this drug was not illegal. So, they passed laws against it, and afterward a person could be arrested for using or distributing the drug.
But the law also recognizes that a person has to have a concept of the law before they can be held accountable. This is why we do not prosecute small children, the mentally handicapped, or the truly insane. God is no different. Yes, little children often do what is sinful. They can be selfish, they sometimes lie, they get mad and fight with their siblings. But they do not understand sin and God's punishment for sin. Only when they reach a certain age of maturity is sin imputed or counted against them.
That little children are sinless in God's eyes is shown.
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Is Jesus saying that heaven is full of wicked little sinners? Hardly.
I have 8 children, I am as aware of their faults as anybody on this forum. I never considered them wicked sinners when they were little. Yes, they did wrong, but they were unaware of what sin is. They were innocent, and this is what the scriptures show.
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Cals/DoGs believe God is powerful enough to do anything with one exception, communicate with the unregenerate. :BangHead:
I mean, doesn't it hold if unregenerate man is unable to hear and believe God's word, then God is also unable to communicate with them?
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Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Oh, Winman, don't you understand? When God communicates he does so EFFECTUALLY and whatever HE communicates WILL BE DONE just as he says! God's communication is IRRESISTIBLE.
For example, when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of that one tree...oh wait, bad example, they didn't obey his communication...
How about when God told Israel they didn't need a King...oh, uh, well...
What about when God told Moses he would destroy Israel and then...uh, hmmmm...
How about when he tell his disciples to have faith...oh wait, never mind.
I guess God does communicate with people who may not obey and that his communication doesn't have to be effectual.
Oh, Winman, don't you understand? When God communicates he does so EFFECTUALLY and whatever HE communicates WILL BE DONE just as he says! God's communication is IRRESISTIBLE.
For example, when God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit of that one tree...oh wait, bad example, they didn't obey his communication...
How about when God told Israel they didn't need a King...oh, uh, well...
What about when God told Moses he would destroy Israel and then...uh, hmmmm...
How about when he tell his disciples to have faith...oh wait, never mind.
I guess God does communicate with people who may not obey and that his communication doesn't have to be effectual.
Yep :laugh:
But what I am asking is this, why can't God communicate with the unregenerate? God can do everything else, but Cals/DoGs insist God cannot do this.
I speak English only. If I run into someone who speaks Spanish only, I am unable to communicate with them. But they are also unable to communicate with me.
If the unregenerate man cannot hear with understanding God's word and believe it, doesn't it hold that God is also unable to communicate with the unregenerate man?
Another obviously clueless Arminian. Learn about the doctrine of grace and you may find out that your conclusion is unbelievably wrong. While you're at it, read Romans 9.
I realize you are familiar with Calvinism and that's good. I also realize you hate it and you are doing everything you can to prove it wrong. Lastly, I think you are over analyzing it to the point that you are beginning to misrepresent it which is not hard to do. It seems that in the past few weeks you have moved more and more closer to hyper Calvinism. That's just my opinion :thumbs:
There are a few points I wanted to make in regards to your statement:
1. People can and do get more hardened with rebellion against any revealed truth that is rejected. This is true and I don't deny it. In fact Jesus tells us that there is a level of hardening that there is no return. Although the apostle Paul seemed to reach that level and was converted in spite of that fact.
2. People are dead in sin. People are born with a sin nature and are by natures sinners as you know. Ephesians 2:1-3. I realize when you read a passage 1,000 times you become hardened to it and it is easy to shew off. John 3:16 is a good example for me, it is easy to just yawn and move on.
"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
Paul here is speaking of everyone being slaves of sin and Satan, living in the desires of the flesh and not desiring God. He basically says not only am I talking about you people in Ephesus, but me, and everyone else. When Jesus called the Jewish leaders children of the devil He wasn't just speaking to the Jewish leaders IMO.
Titus 3:3 "For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another."
3. I think you are right that children are less hardened and maybe not hardened at all. The problem is that they are sinners and guilty because of Adam. After all infants die in the womb, why? didn't death come through sin? I do think God does put a special protection around infants and young children until they can understand. The problem is that I see that many times when they really begin to understand that they love the darkness. So I would say hardening is something that many, if not all of us have experienced. I personally have no doubt that I was an ignorant fool who hated Christ and lived in total sin for most of my life and I was in a deep hole I couldn't get myself out of, nor did I care to.
You also say that people cannot understand sin and Calvinists blame God because they are ignorant of sin. In my view, people do understand right from wrong with or without the Law. The Law just teaches what the conscience barely understands. In fact the Law and Jesus' teaching on the Law is very deep and inescapable. What I mean when I say people don't and cant understand because of slavery is the real inward understanding that brings change. It is one thing to know right from wrong and understand the gospel, and it is a whole different thing to inwardly understand your great need of a Savior, desire Him and self denial deeply, hate your own nature which you are trapped in, and repent. There is something more profound that is understood by those who repent than those who hear and continue in rebellion. Yes they may hear the same Gospel, but some hear it differently than others.
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I am not sure which version you use, but Titus 3:3 is very different in the KJV.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
The KJV says "serving" not enslaved. And Paul said we are servants to whom we obey.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You teach the opposite of what Paul says. You say we must sin because we are enslaved to sin. But Paul says the opposite, he says you become a servant to sin when you "yield yourselves" servants to obey. And Paul also says a man can obey or serve righteousness.
And Jesus said the same.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jesus didn't say you sin because you are a slave to sin, he said you become a servant to sin when you sin.
So, this is a huge difference and contradiction to what you believe and teach. Show me anywhere in the scriptures where it says a man is compelled to sin by his sin nature.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
The KJV says "serving" not enslaved. And Paul said we are servants to whom we obey.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
You teach the opposite of what Paul says. You say we must sin because we are enslaved to sin. But Paul says the opposite, he says you become a servant to sin when you "yield yourselves" servants to obey. And Paul also says a man can obey or serve righteousness.
And Jesus said the same.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Jesus didn't say you sin because you are a slave to sin, he said you become a servant to sin when you sin.
So, this is a huge difference and contradiction to what you believe and teach. Show me anywhere in the scriptures where it says a man is compelled to sin by his sin nature.
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I used NASB
The word used is- δουλεύω/ douleuō
1. to be a slave, serve, do service
a. of a nation in subjection to other nations
2. metaph. to obey, submit to
a. in a good sense, to yield obedience
b. in a bad sense, of those who become slaves to some base power, to yield to, give one's self up to
We were always a slave to sin before we came to Christ. We never submitted to God by faith whatever the case may have been. We all were once slaves to sin, but now in Christ we are slaves to righteousness, that is if we submit to His righteousness. The point is that we all once gladly yielded to what we loved- sin, darkness, selfishness, independence, and so on.
The question again is who didnt continually sin before knowing Christ? Isnt the new commandment faith in Him? If we never kept this commandment then we always disobeyed it and always were sinning. Therefore we were slaves of breaking Gods first command every day until Christ showed up. All men are slaves to sin because all sin... unless they have Jesus
The very purpose of nature is the essense of how a thing reacts. An animal acts like it does because that is its nature, a child acts like he/she does by nature, and so forth.
definition: the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character: human nature.
So our nature is not good and pleasing to God, but rather evil. Our nature isnt a combo or an option, but it is who we are and what we do.
But that is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures do not teach that we are enslaved to sin and compelled or forced by our natures to sin. They teach the opposite, that a man becomes a servant to sin when he yields himself to obey sin. The scriptures clearly show man has the ability to obey righteousness.
As I asked before, show me scripture that says man is compelled or forced to sin by his nature, I have showed you scripture that shows he is not.
As I asked before, show me scripture that says man is compelled or forced to sin by his nature, I have showed you scripture that shows he is not.
I like to say what the scriptures say, we are flesh. Our flesh has all sorts of desires and lusts that entice or tempt us. Some are evil, some are not. A mother has a sincere desire to take care of her newborn child, there is nothing evil about that. But we also have desires or lusts that can lead us into sin. We might see something we want, and be tempted to steal it. We are not absolutely compelled to steal, we can resist. But if we give in to this sinful desire we then sin. And this is what the scriptures teach.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Look up the word "drawn" in verse 14. It does not mean compelled. It means to be lured or seduced, to be enticed.
Our flesh is our human sin nature. That is what entices us. Not only do we battle our sin nature, but we are also enticed by Demons. We can agree that when we sin we primarily sin against God and then of course others. If we covet we are sinning against God first and then others second. This does not mean that we always steal or always kill, but that it is grafted in our nature to want other peoples things and to hate each other. In fact this is what Paul says who we all once were at one point. We all soaked up in various sins all the time never submitting to God. We were by nature children of wrath and enslaved to sin. We were trapped in our own lustful desires. This doesn't mean a women cannot love family, but while she is loving her family she is still denying God, if she doesn't know Him. The issue is that while she is loving her family she is hurting her family by denying God.
Now, our difference should come when you say that in and of ourselves and while we are enslaved by our flesh that our flesh can choose Christ. I disagree that our flesh desires or willingly chooses Christ. heres why...
Romans 8:1-8 (The rest is awesome to)
vs 1-4 Christ set us free from slavery by His work
5- Those who are in flesh think and do flesh only- sin, those in the Spirit do the things of God.
6- In Spirit life, In flesh death
7- mind of flesh is hostile toward God, does not submit to God, nor is able to do so. (Those sinners in and of themselves are not able to not sin)
8- In the flesh, people cannot please God
You keep saying we are enslaved to sin, and I keep asking you to show me one single verse in the scriptures that say we are compelled to sin by our natures.
I am not disagreeing with you that we have sinful lusts and desires, what I am trying to get you to show is where we are always forced and compelled to obey these lusts.
And did not Eve have these lusts and desires before she actually sinned? Look at what the scriptures say.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
The scriptures say exactly what tempted Eve to sin. This fruit appeared to be good for food. It appealed to her appetite. Our appetite is not evil unless we eat to excess, hunger is a natural desire that is important to our well-being and physical health. Our body tells us when we need nourishment. This fruit was beautiful to look at. There is nothing wrong with beauty, unless you let it draw you into sin. It is not wrong to look at your wife and enjoy her beauty, but it is wrong to look at another woman this way. This fruit was to be desired to make one wise. Again, there is nothing wrong with wanting to be wise and intelligent, we should strive to learn, and God commands us to learn from him.
So, unlike others, I do not see a fall in the garden, man was created with desires. It was Eve's desires along with Satan's lie that tempted her to sin. So man was created with the ability to sin from day one.
I do believe this, that once you give in to sin, it becomes easier and easier to sin again.
I also completely disagree with you that man cannot do good. A mother loving and taking care of her newborn is not evil. God wants her to take care of her child, even if the mother is unregenerate.
See, you see everything from a presupposition of Total Depravity. So you see a mother taking care of her child as evil if the mother is unregenerate. But you will not find that in scripture whatsoever. In fact, you find the exact opposite.
Matt 11:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Jesus said unregenerate men "know how to give good gifts". Jesus said "good" here, and Jesus knows what he is saying. If every single thing that unregenerate men do is evil, Jesus would not have said "good" here.
But you cannot accept that because of your presupposition.