How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[BobRyan]

Here we see the case of believing gentiles explicitly being discussed in "the details" given by Paul in scripture.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Yet some will argue that the inconvenient details above do not actually identify believing gentiles - but rather the text is speaking of gentiles in general (both unsaved and saved) standiing by faith and being warned not to fall.

Do we have any Bible scholars here who would venture into the actual text and show that those gentiles standing by faith in Rom 11 are not saved? or that they include "the not saved" gentiles?

Anyone?

Because so far no one has ventured to make an actual Bible case for that POV from the actual text of Rom 11.

And so we are left with a most devastating example of saved gentiles being warned about the very real danger of falling -- being removed from the body of Christ just as were unbelieving Jews.

But there is GOOD news in Romans 11 as well.

"He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF"

How then were some Jews so steeped in unblief in this case? it was via man-made traditions and papal pronouncements that they chose to follow instead of opening their eyes to the inconvenient details of scripture pointing to Jesus as the Messiah.

First, where does it say the Gentiles in question are believers? I think the context of speaking of Israel being broken off as a whole is speaking to the Gentiles as a whole, not believers.
"?

So then the OSAS Baptist view is that "YOU gentiles ... that STAND only by YOUR FAITH" is a reference to people who are lost????

In that case why should lost gentiles FEAR that they may fall from their LOST position?

How is it that Paul is sending his letter to the Romans - to NON believers (what kind of address in Rome is Paul using to get into non-Believer mail boxes???) How is it that Paul is writing to NON believing gentiles that STAND only by their FAITH??


How is this "standing only by faith as a lost person and yet fearing lest they fall from that lost position" idea preached in Baptist churches?

That is a doctrine that is totally new to me!!

someone please explain it!

This is the first I ever heard of it - (leading a sheltered life as I do).

Please say more.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Steven2006]

It needs to be read in context with the verses that came before these to understand what Paul was saying.

 

[annsni]

It needs to be read in context with the verses that came before these to understand what Paul was saying.

I was just going to say the same thing. Read in context it's so clear.

 

[MrJim]

Yup in context it is very clear that Bob Ryan is correct:thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

If there is "another gospel" that teaches that the lost are "standing by faith alone" in their lost condition and if they are to be warned to "fear" losing their precious lost condition (described in Rom 11 as the IN THE BODY of Christ position from which unbelieving Jews fell away due to unbelief) -- then that is a gospel - I was never taught.

Someone please explain it to me.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Someone is quoting you here:
http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1513437&postcount=28

Bob, I think it is imperative that you answer them. Don't you?

 

[ccrobinson]

Bob, do you have Romans 11:1-12 in your Bible? Your posts about Romans 11 always start with verse 13. Seems odd to me. You also say things like this.

the Romans 11 topic is not about Israel - it is about the warning in Romans 11 to "you gentiles" that "stand only by your faith".

I'm no Bible scholar, but I can read Romans 11:1-12 and see that the chapter is about Israel. I can't figure out why I should be trusting anything you have to say about Romans 11.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, do you have Romans 11:1-12 in your Bible? Your posts about Romans 11 always start with verse 13. Seems odd to me. You also say things like this.

I do.

Did you find something there leading you to believe that "you stand only by your faith" is a reference to the lost condition for gentiles?

Because so far we have that idea as "another gospel" promoted here, I have yet to see any Biblical justification for it.

How about you?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

MrJim:Yup in context it is very clear that Bob Ryan is correct:thumbsup:

HP: That a yup yup from me as well. Excellent post(s) Bob.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

Ahh - the "we can see that emperor OSAS has no clothes" group has grown to three so far!

How delightful.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Fifty indisputable truths in defense of eternal security:

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15; 10:28; Romans 6:23; 1 John 2:25; 5:11; 5:13; etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; 6:40; 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believer’s behavior.

3. IT IS GOD’S WILL! John 6:39; It is God’s will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in Heaven is reserved for the believer.

5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break God’s seal.

8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13; The believer actually becomes God’s child and cannot be “unborn.”

12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can “uncreate” him.

13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him. Has Christ ever prayed a prayer that was not answered?

17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ’s love.

20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all God’s work. He bought it and provided it.

21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer’s salvation rests on God’s omnipotent ability to keep him.

22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

26. HE IS IN CHRIST’S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviours hand.

27. HE IS IN THE FATHER’S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father’s hand.

28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

29. GOD’S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God’s mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, He cannot go back on His word.

31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17; 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God’s sight.

34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christian’s new birth was from incorruptible seed.

35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint’s destiny. He is freed from it.

38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer’s behalf.

39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Philippians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

41. HIS LIFE IS CHRIST’S LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christ’s very own life, so how could it be lost?

42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint everlasting life.

43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christ’s perfect righteousness.

46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christ’s body. “Bone of His bone....”

47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRIST’S IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestined.

49. CHRIST’S BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION!

 

[ccrobinson]

What if you're right, Bob? What's the alternative?

If Hebrews 6:4-6 applies to our salvation, then if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right? Doesn't this make the New Covenant worse than the Old? Under the Old Covenant, the Israelites were condemned for their actions, but we'd be condemned for our thoughts.

For example, they couldn't murder. We couldn't even be angry. They couldn't commit adultery. We couldn't even have a lustful thought. I'm not condoning sin, but if you're right, we lose salvation by doing less in following the law than the Israelites did. It's one thing to be condemned for actions, but it's quite another to be condemned for thoughts without actions.

Is this the Good News of Jesus Christ? Are these the riches of His Grace, that we have to live in fear of sinning? Are we saved by grace only to be placed under the constraints of an even more severely administered law? You exult in your supposed "victory" over OSAS, but have you considered what eternal insecurity actually means in everyday life?

I have considered it. I lived the first several years of my Christian life thinking I could lose my salvation. It wasn't a life of freedom in Christ. It was a life of more bondage. It was a life lived knowing that one bad thought leads to eternal condemnation. Living in fear of the hammer falling is not a good thing. You exult in your so-called victory over OSAS, but your way leads to Christians living under the New New Covenant.

In the New New Covenant, Christians can be unborn and unregenerated. In the New New Covenant, it's impossible for God to keep us. In the New New Covenant, the gifts of God are without repentance. In the New New Covenant, eternal means temporary when it refers to eternal life. However, it does mean eternal when referring to condemnation. In the New New Covenant, grace may save us, but it doesn't keep us saved.

Why are we even bothering to believe that God can save us if he can't keep us? If God's not powerful enough to keep us, what makes us think he's powerful enough to save us in the first place?

 

[BobRyan]

What if you're right, Bob? What's the alternative?

The "alternative to OSAS" is that ALL the Bible is true -- not just a portion of 1John 5.

The "alternative to OSAS" is that the "WARNINGS" given in Matt 18, and Romans 11 and Ezek 18, and John 15 are all "true" and all to be studied.

The "alternative to OSAS" is that the Rom 2:6 doctrine on "perseverance of the saints" is "REAL" and is to be believed.

The "Alternative to OSAS" is that the "Severed from Christ, Fallen from Grace" warning of Gal 5:4 means just what it says - and now that people reject the man-made traditions of OSAS they can GAIN the benefit of the Bible warnings they have been so mistakenly avoiding.

If Hebrews 6:4-6 applies to our salvation, then if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost

True enough - there IS that kind of "being lost" as a valid warning. You cannot toss, bend or wrench a Bible text "just because you don't like what it is saying".

But also there is the Romans 11 "kind of being lost" where God says "HE is able to graft them in AGAIN IF they do not CONTINUE in unbelief".

BOTH kinds of being lost are in the Bible - BOTH are possible.

I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right?

Here you engage in simple "storytelling" not in anything stated in Heb 6.

Notice that 1John1:9 and 1John 2:1 expressly address the issue of a saved Christian who falls into sin. The saint does not give up belief, give up all faith in Christ -- because they happen to covet one morning.

Obviously.

But that is not the only mistake the Christian can make. They can ALSO make the horrible LIFE mistake of Matt 18 and get "forgiveness revoked".

They can make the LIFE mistake of John 15 refusing to submit to God's continual care once they are IN Christ and though they are pruned time after time.

Ezek 18 talks about the righteous saved saints - that begin to trust in their good standing and then turn to wickedness thinking "God will do nothing" -- in that case Ezek 18 predicts for them - the second death, the death of the soul - saying "the soul that sins it shall die".


The OSAS option of "ignore the warnings of the Bible you don't like or that don't make you feel happy" is the "peace and safety" message God warns about in scripture. It leaves the one who believes in it at risk of "sudden destruction" because they are being trained to "ignore the warning signs" God gives in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Amy.G]

BOTH kinds of being lost are in the Bible - BOTH are possible.

What? Lost is lost. You are either in God's family or you're not. If you're lost, you are separated from God. There are no "kinds" of lost.

 

[BobRyan]

Turns out - both Heb 6 and Romans 11 are in the Bible.

so yes - both scenarios are valid.

Pretending that it is only Heb 6 - does not help your argument.



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Andre]

I'm no Bible scholar, but I can read Romans 11:1-12 and see that the chapter is about Israel. I can't figure out why I should be trusting anything you have to say about Romans 11.

The chapter is not just about Israel, even if the first 12 verses are.

As per Romans 9, Paul's argument is that the Jews have been hardened for the benefit of the Gentiles. In fact, the very block of verses you cite here telegraphs the fact that believing Gentiles are also on Paul's mind. For example, this:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles ...

....where the "their" rather obviously denotes the Jews who have been hardened to loss. And then Paul goes on to warn believing Gentiles that they too will suffer the same fate if they do not perservere.

There is no "exegetical law" that states "If a chapter starts with a focus on one topic, no other topics can thereafter be introduced.". No - Paul is weaving an argument about Jews and Gentiles and their relationship, so the fact that he focuses on Jews at the beginning does not prevent him from later addressing Gentiles.

 

[Peggy]

The Bible does warn us against falling away from the faith. No one can take our faith, but we can choose to reject God, even after first accepting him.

We have to persevere "till the end" and continue in our faith in order to be saved. God will give us the grace to persevere when we ask him for it. This is what Christian growth is all about.


And he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins when we confess and repent of them.

 

[Andre]

If Hebrews 6:4-6 applies to our salvation, then if we ever sin after being saved, we'll be lost forever with no way back, because the Lord would have to be crucified all over again to retrieve us. BTW, it only takes one sin to fall away, right? I mean, one sin before we're saved was enough to condemn us, so one sin after we're saved is enough to condemn us, right?

I do not think this is a legitimate critique of the "non OSAS" position. You appear to have been gone beyond what the author of Hebrews actually wrote and have applied an overly stringent "one slip-up means you have fallen away" criteria.

Consider what Paul says in Romans 2 regarding the criteria for ultimate salvation:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

While things are not crystal clear here, there is, to me at least, a sense that what matters is the general character of your life. If you seek for glory and honour - you will get eternal life. To seek for it does not mean to live an entirely sinless life.

I think the overall Biblical picture is one where damaged and fallen humans place faith in Jesus and then are transformed over time "to be conformed to the image of the Son". Does this mean we are instantly made sinless? No. Does this mean that even though "works matter unto salvation" (as per Romans 3 and 2 Corinthians 5) that one sin places us at risk of loss? Equally no.

 

[webdog]

The chapter is not just about Israel, even if the first 12 verses are.

As per Romans 9, Paul's argument is that the Jews have been hardened for the benefit of the Gentiles. In fact, the very block of verses you cite here telegraphs the fact that believing Gentiles are also on Paul's mind. For example, this:

because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles ...

....where the "their" rather obviously denotes the Jews who have been hardened to loss. And then Paul goes on to warn believing Gentiles that they too will suffer the same fate if they do not perservere.

There is no "exegetical law" that states "If a chapter starts with a focus on one topic, no other topics can thereafter be introduced.". No - Paul is weaving an argument about Jews and Gentiles and their relationship, so the fact that he focuses on Jews at the beginning does not prevent him from later addressing Gentiles.

I didn't want to continue on the other thread derailing it further, but your understanding that the believers who are being referred to as believers is not the case. In the same way not every Jew had been broken off (there are jewish believers), the text cannot be understood that the gentiles spoken of were all believers, but gentiles as a whole. The warning was for the gentiles to NOT follow the same path the jews had by rejecting Christ, not that believing gentiles would lose their salvation. That is a position that has to be read into the text. It is clearly a warning to the gentiles to not follow the same path the jews had up to that point.

 

[ccrobinson]

I do not think this is a legitimate critique of the "non OSAS" position. You appear to have been gone beyond what the author of Hebrews actually wrote and have applied an overly stringent "one slip-up means you have fallen away" criteria.

That's a fair assessment. Perhaps I've gone overboard.

True enough - there IS that kind of "being lost" as a valid warning. You cannot toss, bend or wrench a Bible text "just because you don't like what it is saying".

I'm really not trying to do this. But, when Scripture like what you think Romans 11 teaches goes against what I see in 1 John 5, I find it nearly impossible to reconcile the 2.