How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[DHK]

I think I agree with HP that the Law can indeed be kept - Paul kept it, or so he claims in Phillipians.

Remember - the Law of Moses is only for the Jews. So for Paul to say what he says in the text you give, he must have a concept of sin that extends beyond breaking the Law of Moses. In short, even if you keep the Law of Moses, you could still sin.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul says that it is impossible to keep the law. In order to keep the law one would have to continue from birth to death in keeping all the Jewish laws, without breaking one during the entirety of his life. There are hundreds of Levitical laws, ceremonnial laws, civil laws, etc. Just one law broken, one time in one's life would curse a person--condemn him to hell for all eternity.
"Cursed is every one that continues not in ALL things that are written in the BOOK of the law to do them." That is a lot of law.

The only answer:
Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
--This is part of the answer. The law shows that we are sinners. It can't save. It can't justify. We can't keep it. Because we can't keep it, it can't save us, and therefore we need a Savior. That is precisely why Christ came. No man can keep the law.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
--Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. He took our place on the cross, and paid a penalty that we could never pay. He was made a curse for us. It was the only way that that penalty for sin could be paid; that the demands of the law could be fulfilled.
And thus the sacrifice of Christ must be accepted by faith, and not of works.

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
--What a terrible way to live: under the law--by works, and not of grace--the grace that Christ alone offers which must be accepted by faith alone.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul declares the Law was made for "sinners".

1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Paul declares that he was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious. So why do you believe Paul kept the Law?

1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

Paul believed he was "chief of sinners". So why do you believe he kept the Law?

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

:godisgood:

Indeed.

As John says in 1John 3 - "sin is violation of the LAW"

But the same law that is EXTERNAL and on tablets of STONE under the old covenant (the covenant of Obey and LIVE) - by which ALL are sinners and ALL are condemned (see Gal 3 and Romans 3 - showing that the Law binds ALL mankind - ALL the world under the sentence of death) -- is the LAW that is written "on tablets of the human heart" under the New Covenant of Heb 8.

Thus Paul can say "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law".

It was why James can quote from the Ten Commandment LAW calling it the "LAW of Liberty" and then say that we are to "LIVE as those who are to be JUDGED" by that Law.

in 1Cor 7:19 "But what MATTERS is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTs of GOD"

And Christ can say of the PRECROSS commandments "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My Commandments". John 14:15.

Christ is the "I AM" of the OT -- that thundered His own commandments from Sinai.

He says "Before Abraham was I AM"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Paul says that it is impossible to keep the law. In order to keep the law one would have to continue from birth to death in keeping all the Jewish laws,

That is correct except for the notion that Jews are the author of scripture.

Paul is clear "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from GOD"
So also is Peter clear on this point "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD".

As Romans 3 and Gal 3 point out - all of mankind are proven to be in transgression - in violation of the Law of God - and thus ALL mankind need a Savior.

So many of our Baptist friends understand the relationship of the LOST person to the Law of God - they see the problem clearly.

But what about the Romans 6 position of the SAVED person in relationship to the LAW of God? That seems to be more difficult for some to see.

In Romans 6 Paul states that If you claim that you MUST sin - that you cannot obey as a saved born-again saint - then you are in fact returned to your lost condition of SLAVERY to sin. In Romans 6 Paul says you can either be a slave to Righteousness or a slave to SIN. If you choose the "I cannot stop sinning" route then Paul says at the end of Romans 6 "the wages of SIN is DEATH" (meaning the Rev 20 - second death).

In 1Cor 10 Paul says "NO sin has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able. He will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE".

Many argue in modern times that God is either not that faithful as the text says - or is not able to provide the level of victory and strength needed by the weakened condition of sinful man EVEN if that man is a born-again saint.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

That previous point gets us to the subject of "sacred vs profane sins".

Even in the Baptist church the pastor cannot be "slave" to adultery. He cannot claim "I am trying to stop - but I just don't have the complete victory at all times -- because of my sinful nature".

Now there IS a "sacred sin" there that the Baptist WILL allow - which is "an immoral thought" by the Pastor. He is welcome to that all day long - but he may not actually commit the sin and then claim that his sinful nature is just TOO much for him.

Not if he wants to continue being the pastor.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Andre,

I want to commend you again for your excellent posting on Romans 11. I really can't see how folks can get around the clear statements of v 18-22. The best that proponents of Rom 11 seem to be capable of here is to respond in one or two ways: (1) they can say WTTE that this has something to do with national Israel, as if the mere utterance of "national Israel" magically sweeps aside the plain meaning of the text regarding the real warnings to the Gentiles who were currently "standing by faith" when Paul wrote the epistle; and/or (2) they reply in essence "Oh yeah? well this other (fill in the blank) passage definitely teaches (allegedly) OSAS, so there!" without having to actually deal with Romans 11 at all.

Indeed - that method is getting used used and overused here.

:laugh:

I guess the literal-grammatical-historical method of interpretation goes out the window when it doesn't jive with one's pet theology and favorite 'proof texts'.

Indeed exegesis is getting tossed under the bus by those who promote OSAS while ignoring Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Doubting Thomas points out that the OSAS position ignores everything in Romans 11 regarding the "inconvenient details" of GENTILES who "STAND ONLY BY THEIR FAITH" being warned to "FEAR for if He did not spare the unbelieving Jews that fell neither will He spare you" -- and the "excuse" used to ignore that part of the test is the "mention" of "Jews" or the "mention" of Israel any place at all in Romans 11.

Well, if you read the entire chapter 11 you cannot ignore the fact that it is certainly speaking about the Jews as a nation and not as individuals. However, I do agree that the phrase "you stand by faith" is speaking of professing (key) Christians.


...
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Stever

1. - you are MAKING Doubting Thomas' point by your reference above to the Jews WITHOUT making reference to Gentiles found In the chapter.

2. IN the Romans 9 - the Vessels "of mercy" according to Paul include the faithful Jews "Even US whom He called not from among the Jews ONLY but also from among the GENTILES" Rom 9:24

3. The 7000 faithful - in Romans 11 represent the faithFUL Jews.


Thus we have the individual case dealt with in BOTh Romans 9 and 11 - where some Jews are faithFUL and are vessels of mercy -- while others fall away due to unbelief.

Not that surprising given what we know about the Gospel - as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I guessed at some examples, but the fact remains - the Law is only for the Jews. So people must be able sin without breaking the Law of Moses

In Lev 18 God provides a list of sins for which he condemned the non-Bible non-Jewish heathen nations that were in Caanan before Israel.

In Gen 15:16 God tells Abraham that he is not going to inherit any land - in his lifetime because "the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete".

In Romans 1 Paul says that the "barbarians" are "without excuse" for their sins (of which homosexuality is listed as well as others) because the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen through the things that have been made".

in Romans 2 Paul says of the gentile that has no access at all to scripture "they do instinctively the things of the law SHOWING the works of the Law WRITTEN on the heart" - which is the New Covenant work of the Holy Spirit that Paul says in Romans 2 - is done by "circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit"

In John 16 Christ Himself states that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

In 1John 3 - John says that "SIN is violation of the Law of God".

The TEN Commandments have always been upheld in scripture as "the Law of God". In Romans 7 Paul points to the general principle of SIN and condemnation of sinners - he shows that it is the Ten Commandment Law of God that is condemning all - even Gentiles. (That is apart from the New Covenant where that SAME Law is written on the tablets of the human heart)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

That is correct except for the notion that Jews are the author of scripture.

Paul is clear "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from GOD"
So also is Peter clear on this point "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke FROM GOD".

As Romans 3 and Gal 3 point out - all of mankind are proven to be in transgression - in violation of the Law of God - and thus ALL mankind need a Savior.

So many of our Baptist friends understand the relationship of the LOST person to the Law of God - they see the problem clearly.

But what about the Romans 6 position of the SAVED person in relationship to the LAW of God? That seems to be more difficult for some to see.

In Romans 6 Paul states that If you claim that you MUST sin - that you cannot obey as a saved born-again saint - then you are in fact returned to your lost condition of SLAVERY to sin. In Romans 6 Paul says you can either be a slave to Righteousness or a slave to SIN. If you choose the "I cannot stop sinning" route then Paul says at the end of Romans 6 "the wages of SIN is DEATH" (meaning the Rev 20 - second death).

In 1Cor 10 Paul says "NO sin has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able. He will WITH the temptation provide the way of ESCAPE".

Many argue in modern times that God is either not that faithful as the text says - or is not able to provide the level of victory and strength needed by the weakened condition of sinful man EVEN if that man is a born-again saint.

in Christ,

Bob

Just a correction, 1Cor 10 it is "No temptation" rather than "No sin". Christians can allow sin to overtake them but it is of their own making for God has freed His children from sins power and does provide ways out of the temptations.

:jesus:

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed - "no temptation" and as James 2:13-15 points out - temptation leads to sin.

In 2cor 10:4 Paul says that as Saints we are "taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the OBEDIENCE of Christ"

As John says starting in 1john 1:9 "if WE confess our SINS He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar... I write these things to you that you SIN NOT - but if anyone DOES sin we have an advocate with the Father".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

Doubting Thomas points out that the OSAS position ignores everything in Romans 11 regarding the "inconvenient details" of GENTILES who "STAND ONLY BY THEIR FAITH" being warned to "FEAR for if He did not spare the unbelieving Jews that fell neither will He spare you" -- and the "excuse" used to ignore that part of the test is the "mention" of "Jews" or the "mention" of Israel any place at all in Romans 11.



Stever

1. - you are MAKING Doubting Thomas' point by your reference above to the Jews WITHOUT making reference to Gentiles found In the chapter.

2. IN the Romans 9 - the Vessels "of mercy" according to Paul include the faithful Jews "Even US whom He called not from among the Jews ONLY but also from among the GENTILES" Rom 9:24

3. The 7000 faithful - in Romans 11 represent the faithFUL Jews.


Thus we have the individual case dealt with in BOTh Romans 9 and 11 - where some Jews are faithFUL and are vessels of mercy -- while others fall away due to unbelief.

Not that surprising given what we know about the Gospel - as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

1) I was just pointing out that part of the chapter is speaking about the Jews as a nation, some were arguing that it was not.

2) I like how you quoted this. We see that they were "called" and in this letter to the Romans Paul tells us;
Rom 8:30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Remember, DT was observing how "clear" things are written for us in passages of scripture and that we need not bring in other scriptures from other passages for any clarifications.

3) Agreed, and the scripture states that God is the One who has reserved them unto Himself.

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Agreed - "no temptation" and as James 2:13-15 points out - temptation leads to sin.

In 2cor 10:4 Paul says that as Saints we are "taking EVERY THOUGHT captive to the OBEDIENCE of Christ"

As John says starting in 1john 1:9 "if WE confess our SINS He is faithful and just to FORGIVE us our sins AND to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned we make him a liar... I write these things to you that you SIN NOT - but if anyone DOES sin we have an advocate with the Father".

in Christ,

Bob

So would you say that according to 1John 1:9 Christians DO choose to transgress God's Law?
I know there are those who hold the pov that Christians NEVER transgress God's Law, therefore those who do transgress God's Law are proving they are not born of God.

:jesus:

 

[Andre]

I really have no debate going as to whether the Law is only for the Jew or not. Paul was a Jew and you said that he kept the Law but sinned some other way. Now look at 1 Timothy and tell me that Paul was not connecting the Law to his very own sinfulness.

:godisgood:

I see nothing in the 1 Timothy text that speaks against the notion that people can sin without reference to the law. What, and please be specific, do you see in this text, or any other, that says effectively "sin is only defined in terms of the violation of the Law of Moses".

 

[Andre]

So it covers pagan/heathen, Gentile (the Greek or the moral man), and the Jew. Everyone is accountable.

The fact that everyone is indeed "accountable" does not mean that the Law of Moses is applicable to all human beings. I live in Canada. I am not under American law. Does that means I am not accountable to Canadian law? Of course not.

Same with the Law of Moses. It is given to the Jews and is for the Jews only. This does not mean that Gentiles are not subject to a kind of moral law.

Paul's view of the concept of law is subtle. But one thing is easy to figure out - the Law of Moses was given to the Jews and the Jews only.

 

[Andre]

Paul says that it is impossible to keep the law.

No. Paul never says that it is impossible to keep the Law anywhere in this text.

Paul says a number of things such as:

1. The scriptures say that everyone who does not keep the law is cursed. Let's be clear: This is not a statement that it is impossible to keep the law, it is a statement about what is true about those who don't keep the law.

2. Even those who keep the law - like Paul did - are not justified by doing so.

Where does Paul say that it is impossible to keep the Law of Moses?

Here in Phillipians 3, Paul asserts that, in fact, he did keep the Law of Moses:

as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless

 

[Andre]

I now see that I have a different take on the law than all of you, including Bob. I do not have time to get into the detailed arguments, but I hope to come back to this as soon as I can......

 

[BobRyan]

So would you say that according to 1John 1:9 Christians DO choose to transgress God's Law?
I know there are those who hold the pov that Christians NEVER transgress God's Law, therefore those who do transgress God's Law are proving they are not born of God.

:jesus:

Yes I think Christians -- born-again saints choose rebellion at times and John is saying that when that happens they have an Advocate with the Father in the form of the High Priestly ministry of Christ.

All that Christian has to do is confess their guilt and claim the promise of forgiveness. Not only will Christ forgive the sin - but He will cleanse the soul of unrighteous thoughts and desires - IF that person chooses to submit to God.

As James states -- sin is not something that gobbles up the saint - it begins with temptation and it can also begin with sinful desires that are "indulged" and nurtured.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I think I agree with HP that the Law can indeed be kept - Paul kept it, or so he claims in Phillipians.

.

I agree with this.

In Romans 7 Paul describes his battle with sin. He quotes from the Law (the Ten Commandments as we see in Rom 7) and he says that in his mind he fully agrees with it.

But he says that he sees "Sin in him" at war with the law of his mind.

So that is the state of the saved saint - who struggles with sin (where sin as John points out in 1John 3 is the transgression of God's Law).

But in Romans 8 Paul shows (as in Romans 6) Paul shows how victory over sin is obtained by those who "walk" according to the Spirit. Thus the saved born-again saint is not left in the helpless Romans 7 state. So Paul can say in 1Cor 7:19 "But what matters is keeping the Commandments of God".

Thus the "good tree" of Matt 7 (pre-cross) is the one that "DOES the will of the Father" not simply someone who "hears only".

And as we see in Romans 2:11-13 God says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law are JUST before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified" - iin Romans 2 Paul says this applies to BOTH Jew AND Gentile.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marcia]

The fact that everyone is indeed "accountable" does not mean that the Law of Moses is applicable to all human beings.

Where did I say this? I wasn't disagreeing with you.

 

[Marcia]

No. Paul never says that it is impossible to keep the Law anywhere in this text.

Paul says a number of things such as:

1. The scriptures say that everyone who does not keep the law is cursed. Let's be clear: This is not a statement that it is impossible to keep the law, it is a statement about what is true about those who don't keep the law.

2. Even those who keep the law - like Paul did - are not justified by doing so.

Where does Paul say that it is impossible to keep the Law of Moses?

Here in Phillipians 3, Paul asserts that, in fact, he did keep the Law of Moses:

as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless

Jesus said no one could keep the Law. He showed this with examples: anyone who calls his brother "fool" is a murderer; anyone who lusts after a woman has committed adultery. There is no one on earth who has never called anyone an idiot or fool and I am not a man, but I find it hard to believe that no man has never had lust for a woman not his wife.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Been there, done that. I always highlight what I have written and then press "Ctrl C" at the same time. If the page messes up just redo the page and then press "Ctrl V" and it will paste what you had highlighted.

:wavey:

This used to happen to me in the past--you would think I'd have learned by now.

At any rate, I would love to repost, but I just got home from the hospital--two of my children had tubes put in theirs ears this morning. Hopefully I'll repost later...and copy my post before submitting next time.