Is it ok?

[Thinkingstuff]

To miss certain things from before I was born again. Like Ash Wednesday is next week begining the season of Lent and I remember having a ceremony commemorating Jesus' passion for our repentance by having ash in the sign of the cross placed on our heads. It seems now a good talking point for sharing the gospel. But I'm no longer Catholic. One thing is I seem to miss how close I was to the liturgical year. I think now I can even enjoy fasting during lent. Advent Calanders were great! The Jesse Tree ornaments, and a multitude of days of reflection; But since I left the Catholic Church and now have been a baptist for awhile, the liturgical year was never important in any of the churches I've been to. There is no historical wealth that I used to associate with. We don't have communion save once in a quarter. Nor do things seem as grand. Yet, on the other hand when I was a Catholic, I never really appreciated these things either and never really followed through with fasting and prayer. I pretty much was a pagan shrouded in Catholicism. Having left the Catholic Church I've developed a real prayer life, understanding of scriptures, and certain aspects of Theological development, and now these things, I use to take for granted, begin to have an appeal. Is it wrong for me to miss these things? I don't want to return to Law like belief-ism but I feel I had a rich Christian background because of Catholicism especially now that I've been studying Church history.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

...no text...

 

[Aaron]

If one had fond memories of his past experiences, he will naturally have an affinity for the tokens of that experience. It can be especially perilous in the realm of religion to cling to traditions and rites that, despite their outward show, actually detract from the Gospel of Christ.

The Jews of the First Century were more prone than their pagan counterparts to commit apostacy, because of their rich tradition and "historical wealth." And though Paul had a rich heritage as a Jew, he counted all the things that were his advantages in Judaism a "loss," and said that if he reestablished these things (even though these things prefigured Christ), then he made himself a transgressor.

The observances of the Baptists, when contrasted with Catholic rites, are admittedly bare, and it's for good reason. Outward pomp and circumstance too easily distract us from the true object of our worship. If our love for Christ and His Word were burning as hot in our hearts as it did in Paul's, we would say the same things that he did. Our emotional responses to outward ornaments in comparison could be called hatred.

The attaction for the Christian is love: love for Christ and His Word, and love for one another. Anything else is idolatry.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Aaron: The attaction for the Christian is love: love for Christ and His Word, and love for one another. Anything else is idolatry

.

HP: What is puzzling to me is that when you ‘talk’ about love for God and others is sounds on target, but when we address the practice of so many claiming such ‘love,’ something seems out of kilter. How can one claim to love God and do not the things He commands? How can one say he loves God and proclaim it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to comply with His commandments???

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[billwald]

>But I'm no longer Catholic.

Does the Catholic Church officially know this? If not, try taking your new knowledge back to your old church and see what it feels like. God won't hold it against you.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

TS,

You didn't ask this, but... you can - even as a fallen away Catholic - receive ashes on Ash Wednesday. The ashes are a sacramental, not a sacrament; thus, they can be used by anyone as an aid in their devotion to God.

CA

 

[Peggy]

I grew up Lutheran, and we also followed a liturgical cycle of the year. Nothing wrong with that - the year naturally has its cycles of winter, spring, summer and fall. The liturgical year calls to mind the truths of our faith - Lent (repentence from sin), Advent (looking forward to Christ's birth), Easter (celebrating His resurrection), and Christmas (celebrating His birth). These are all Christian events that can be celebrated and contemplated by Christians no matter what denomination or church you belong to.

 

[Aaron]

.

What is puzzling to me is that when you ‘talk’ about love for God and others sounds on target, but when we address the practice of so many claiming such ‘love,’ something seems out of kilter. How can one claim to love God and do not the things He commands?

He can't. At every sinful thought and deed, self-love is at the root.

How can one say he loves God and proclaim it is in fact IMPOSSIBLE to comply with His commandments???

Our carnal minds to not love God, and they cannot be subject to the law of God. But that which is born of God loves God and does not sin. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin, Rom 7:25.

 

[Marcia]

To miss certain things from before I was born again. Like Ash Wednesday is next week begining the season of Lent and I remember having a ceremony commemorating Jesus' passion for our repentance by having ash in the sign of the cross placed on our heads. It seems now a good talking point for sharing the gospel. But I'm no longer Catholic. One thing is I seem to miss how close I was to the liturgical year. I think now I can even enjoy fasting during lent. Advent Calanders were great! The Jesse Tree ornaments, and a multitude of days of reflection; But since I left the Catholic Church and now have been a baptist for awhile, the liturgical year was never important in any of the churches I've been to. There is no historical wealth that I used to associate with. We don't have communion save once in a quarter. Nor do things seem as grand. Yet, on the other hand when I was a Catholic, I never really appreciated these things either and never really followed through with fasting and prayer. I pretty much was a pagan shrouded in Catholicism. Having left the Catholic Church I've developed a real prayer life, understanding of scriptures, and certain aspects of Theological development, and now these things, I use to take for granted, begin to have an appeal. Is it wrong for me to miss these things? I don't want to return to Law like belief-ism but I feel I had a rich Christian background because of Catholicism especially now that I've been studying Church history.

I think it is quite normal that you miss these things, and I somewhat relate to it. I started attending an Episcopal church when I was an astrologer (it's a long story, part of my testimony) and came to really love the liturgy. I wa saved while reading the Bible (at home) while still attending this church which, sad to say, was falling away from the faith even then (1990-91).

I miss the liturgy of that church a lot but I cannot in any return to an Episcopal Church. I tried for awhile to attend a conservative Anglican church but had already become involved with my Baptist church. Though I miss the liturgy, I have learned so much about the Bible and grown in my church that I just had to come to terms with it and let go of the liturgy (likewise, I could not agree with some of the practices of other liturgical churches so am not drawn to them).

 

[Melanie]

The traditions and such of the RCC has been a great source of comfort for me personally. They are not obligatory for redemption, but I do find great joy in ritual...this has been one of the main contentions of the people who found that folk based their Belief in the Ritual rather than Our Redeemer Himself.

I cried at my first Tridentine Mass, and I cried in the Confessional. Regardless of what others may feel it was important to me. I love the fact that my mob follow the Liturgical Year and the period of Holy Week leading up to Tenebrae. It is not necessary (in my humble view) to redemption, faith is a gift from God...but I am a humble creature who finds the visual and sensorial a great help in my belief. I shall be at the Ash Wednesday Mass and Palm Sunday and all the rest....I pray that all who frequent this Board will have a meaningful and grace given Lent and Easter.:1_grouphug:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And though Paul had a rich heritage as a Jew, he counted all the things that were his advantages in Judaism a "loss," and said that if he reestablished these things (even though these things prefigured Christ), then he made himself a transgressor.

This was exactly where I was struggling when I posted this thread. I indeed do miss these aspects but in doing so am I made a transgressor? How much of Judaism was incorporated in the Early Church? Enough it seems that the pagans couldn't really tell that much difference. Also James asserts that the gentile Christians follow the Noahide laws in the council at Jerusalem. So there is this struggle. But as you mentioned Paul says I count all things as lost.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

>But I'm no longer Catholic.

Does the Catholic Church officially know this? If not, try taking your new knowledge back to your old church and see what it feels like. God won't hold it against you.

Yeah, when I left years ago it caused such a stir in my family that my mother wouldn't speak to me for the next 20 years and every conversation with my father was an argument. Funny he claimed I was a heretic yet he was twice divorced civilly and had two annulments which I think he almost planned out. And I'm still married to the same woman I married 10 years ago. Go figure. I had a rosary given to me by a Nuncio blessed by the Pope made out of silver given me at my confirmation that I later returned. I became the Outcast of my family. I lost all financial support and had to make my way on my own while my brothers and sister had everything handed to them even their college tuition. While I'm still paying off my loans. However, God was faithful and I gain many lovely Spiritual family members over the years. And strong friendships. Also, two of my brothers both who have met Mother Teresa are both alcoholics and dabble in drugs. My sister has been unfaithful in her marriage. And all of them tell me that they keep praying that I return to the "true church". I tell them that if it were the true church then why the disparity of morality?

 

[lori4dogs]

The traditions and such of the RCC has been a great source of comfort for me personally. They are not obligatory for redemption, but I do find great joy in ritual...this has been one of the main contentions of the people who found that folk based their Belief in the Ritual rather than Our Redeemer Himself.

I cried at my first Tridentine Mass, and I cried in the Confessional. Regardless of what others may feel it was important to me. I love the fact that my mob follow the Liturgical Year and the period of Holy Week leading up to Tenebrae. It is not necessary (in my humble view) to redemption, faith is a gift from God...but I am a humble creature who finds the visual and sensorial a great help in my belief. I shall be at the Ash Wednesday Mass and Palm Sunday and all the rest....I pray that all who frequent this Board will have a meaningful and grace given Lent and Easter.:1_grouphug:

I do find great joy in the rich liturgies and following the Liturgical Year. The daily Bible readings coincide with the liturgical season. As we enter Lent the readings will be on penitence, fasting and a richer prayer life. The Gospel reading will lead us up to Holy Week and Our Lord's Passion, death, and resurrection.

Some Baptist and Mennonite Churches in our area are beginning to observe both Lent and Advent. I was amazed to walk into the one of the largest churches in town (Mennonite) and watch them say prayers as they lit the first candle of Advent. After the service they said it had become very meaningful way to prepare for the celebration of the Lords birth. Several Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran and Catholic Churches participate in a Stations of the Cross on Good Friday through the middle of Visalia. The participation has grown so large that their is plenty of media coverage and brings the message that Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

It is very common to see people with ashes on the forehead for Ash Weds. This is not to show people how pious we are but to remind us that we are but dust and to dust we will return (either with or without Jesus)

I also have developed a habit of reading the Daily Office which give me a structured bible study and prayer life. It is on a four year cycle and most days I follow matin (morning prayer, sext, (mid-morning prayer), diurnum (noonday prayer) Vespers (Evening Prayer) and Compline (night prayer).

Liturgy has become alive for me. I can't imagine wanting a different prayer life or worship without the benefit of Liturgy. I have opportunity to have Holy Communion each morning and I can't think of anything more precious than to start my day in adoration of my Lord and Savior.

It makes me sad to think that their are so many other people who are brought up in the is rich Liturgical tradition, a tradition passed down from the time of Israel through the church, and it is not taken advantage of by half the pews sitter. i have to agree with many on the Board that their are many Catholics sitting in the pews that are Catholics that just got wet at the Baptistery and have never followed through with true repentance, amendment of life and a decision to walk with Jesus as Lord and Savior.

We have a Lenten Retreat coining up and are expecting hundreds to attend. A Catholic evangelist will lead the first few days and present the message that Jesus wants us to repent and make a decision to accept Him into our Lives and follow him not only through the period of Lent but as Lord and Savior the rest of our Lives. I am deeply involved in this evangelism retreat which draws many who have never darkened a Christian door before but also for fall away Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.

The season of Lent gives us opportunity to focus on that period of Christ ministry when he got much closer to why He came and what His coming means to us.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I also have developed a habit of reading the Daily Office which give me a structured bible study and prayer life. It is on a four year cycle and most days I follow matin (morning prayer, sext, (mid-morning prayer), diurnum (noonday prayer) Vespers (Evening Prayer) and Compline (night prayer).

At what time do you start? Because its broken down by Morning prayer...What time do you pray that with the required 3 psalms and daily reading from scriptures and one reading from a ancient surmon? Then there is the daily prayer with another 3 psalms... How much later do you pray that? Then minor prayers at mid morning, noon, and mid afternoon... then when do you pray the evening prayer with another 3 psalms and intersessions?... And when do you pray the night prayer?

 

[Aaron]

This was exactly where I was struggling when I posted this thread. I indeed do miss these aspects but in doing so am I made a transgressor?

Whatever is not of faith is sin. If you have doubts about taking these things up again, then do not do them. What good did they do you when you observed them, and what exactly is it that you miss about them? They did not bring you to Christ, and isn't their pull on you now simply sentimental?

They're not the same as the shadows and types of the law, but they can just as easily occupy our hearts and distract us from the grace of God.*

How much of Judaism was incorporated in the Early Church?

Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. All the outward trappings were abandoned, and worship was moved to Sunday. [joke]They even started eating ham on Easter.[/joke]

Enough it seems that the pagans couldn't really tell that much difference.

Not sure how you can make that assertion.

Also James asserts that the gentile Christians follow the Noahide laws in the council at Jerusalem.

John Calvin explained that simply and succinctly. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom37.iii.iv.html

*The danger is the same with the exhibitionistic styles of worship commonly employed in Baptist churches these days.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

the biggest difference i see, and it's hard to explain but, coming from a fundamental Baptist background and going into the Orthodox Church; it just seems that we live every day in the Church. Whereas as a Baptist it was just a few hours on Sunday's.

as an Orthodox Christian, it's an everyday experience...the Liturgical Year, with Fasting, celebrating the many and various Feast days (like the Dormition, the Transfiguration, the beheading of St. John, Pentecost, the Ascension of our Lord...and many more)...Celebrating Liturgy commemorating various Saints of the Church...We have daily evening Vespers, Great Vespers on Saturday evening, so there's really no excuse not to be in Church every day!

...but this IS by far my favorite time of the year...as we prepare for the Great Fast with Meat Fare week and Cheese Week and then it's a Strict Fast until Pascha...some of the most moving services are held during Great Lent, hymns and chants that you'll only hear during this time of the year! ...and Holy Week in the Orthodox Church, the services are hours long, so much Holy Scripture is read...not a service goes by were you won't at least shed a tear...our processions around the Church is something to experience.

then Pascha, what can I say, it has to be experienced...service starts at 10pm, everyone has a candle and the Church is darkened...the beautiful hymns, then comes the procession around the Church and our Bishop ends at our front doors...Our Bishop knocks on the doors saying:" Lift up your gates, O ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates, and the King of Glory shall enter in." Then a voice from within cries out: "Who is this King of Glory?"...then our Bishops cries: "The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord, mighty in war. Lift up your gates, O ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates, and the King of Glory shall enter in." Then a voice from within cries out again: " Who is this King of Glory?"..." The Lord of hosts, He is the King of Glory!" cries our bishop and the doors swing open and our Church is lit up and we all start crying "Christ is Risen!"...this is the only time kids in Church can get loud and they really yell!

Then we finish our service, ends around 2am, then the FEAST begins...so much food, drink and brace yourselves...dancing! We make it home around 6am and its back to Church at noon and then various parties celebrating the Risen Christ...its a great time!

In XC
-

 

[Thinkingstuff]

John Calvin explained that simply and succinctly

His explaination was neither simply nor succinctly. Simply said and succinctly said it would be "So as not to give an apperance of Idol worship and not to offend the Jews". That is the basis of it

 

[Aaron]

Well, then follow suit. James suggested things to avoid, not things to practice.

 

[lori4dogs]

At what time do you start? Because its broken down by Morning prayer...What time do you pray that with the required 3 psalms and daily reading from scriptures and one reading from a ancient surmon? Then there is the daily prayer with another 3 psalms... How much later do you pray that? Then minor prayers at mid morning, noon, and mid afternoon... then when do you pray the evening prayer with another 3 psalms and intersessions?... And when do you pray the night prayer?

6:00 a.m. - Morning Prayer
9:00 a.m. - Sext
Noon - Mass
3:05 p.m. - None/Intercessions (always prayer but not always None)
Stations of the Cross (Fridays)
Holy Hour (Saturdays)
6:00 p.m. - Evening Prayer
9:00 p.m. -- Compline-(night prayer) is a short office and is just before my spouse and I retire. My spouse joins me as his work permits.

 

[lori4dogs]

the biggest difference i see, and it's hard to explain but, coming from a fundamental Baptist background and going into the Orthodox Church; it just seems that we live every day in the Church. Whereas as a Baptist it was just a few hours on Sunday's.

as an Orthodox Christian, it's an everyday experience...the Liturgical Year, with Fasting, celebrating the many and various Feast days (like the Dormition, the Transfiguration, the beheading of St. John, Pentecost, the Ascension of our Lord...and many more)...Celebrating Liturgy commemorating various Saints of the Church...We have daily evening Vespers, Great Vespers on Saturday evening, so there's really no excuse not to be in Church every day!

...but this IS by far my favorite time of the year...as we prepare for the Great Fast with Meat Fare week and Cheese Week and then it's a Strict Fast until Pascha...some of the most moving services are held during Great Lent, hymns and chants that you'll only hear during this time of the year! ...and Holy Week in the Orthodox Church, the services are hours long, so much Holy Scripture is read...not a service goes by were you won't at least shed a tear...our processions around the Church is something to experience.

then Pascha, what can I say, it has to be experienced...service starts at 10pm, everyone has a candle and the Church is darkened...the beautiful hymns, then comes the procession around the Church and our Bishop ends at our front doors...Our Bishop knocks on the doors saying:" Lift up your gates, O ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates, and the King of Glory shall enter in." Then a voice from within cries out: "Who is this King of Glory?"...then our Bishops cries: "The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord, mighty in war. Lift up your gates, O ye princes; and be ye lifted up, ye everlasting gates, and the King of Glory shall enter in." Then a voice from within cries out again: " Who is this King of Glory?"..." The Lord of hosts, He is the King of Glory!" cries our bishop and the doors swing open and our Church is lit up and we all start crying "Christ is Risen!"...this is the only time kids in Church can get loud and they really yell!

Then we finish our service, ends around 2am, then the FEAST begins...so much food, drink and brace yourselves...dancing! We make it home around 6am and its back to Church at noon and then various parties celebrating the Risen Christ...its a great time!


In XC
-

I first encountered this in upstate New York where there is a Russian community which is centered upon the Church. When the bells of the monastery are rung, people drop what they are doing and pray. Sunday is spent at the monastery by the WHOLE town. After Divine Liturgy there is food, food, food, and (again brace yourself) dancing. Often Babies and adults are immersed in the Baptismal waters of the pond on the monastery grounds.

One thing I found was that the Orthodox monks were very educated. They knew more about the history of the protestant church than we do. There is much emphasis on bible and other studies. The children are extremely well catechized and seemed to have almost a college level education at the high school age. The sense of Christian Community is fantastic. My spouse and I would love to live among them if we thought we could master the Russian language. Oh, and biblical Greek seems to be a second language to them.