Well, it sounds like we agree. We agree that God did not make a prediction and failed. We also agree that God granted mercy to Hez. after he sought such mercy. Therefore, it was implicit that God would grant mercy to Hez. when he gave the warning, "You shall die," otherwise God would not have granted mercy afterwards. That's not reading into the text - it's simply following the narrative as to what actually happened. Can you explain why you think that is reading into the text?
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Can God change his mind?
- Thread starter SaggyWoman
- Start date
What do you think God meant when he said that Hezekiah was going to die?
"Get your house in order, you will not recover, you will die". Why the textual gymnastics?
We are going in circles at this point. Of course He was not wrong and there was no failed decree. It clearly was no prediction. According to HIM He *gasp* changed His mind after hearing his prayer! Why not just accept that? Why try to make His action have to follow that of man's? I thought you held to the sovereign doctrines of grace? Let God be sovereign!
Where in the text does it say "God changed his mind?" Since we can only look at the text and not its meaning (the standard by which you have judged me), where does it say God changed his mind, specifically (not implicitly)?
I just lost a whole response in cyber space :BangHead:
Bottom line is the exact words are not there, but a plain reading of the text shows just that... not "what He really meant by that was...". I did not say to only look at the text, but to just read the text plainly which does not hint of God saying under His breath (if He prays I wil add 15 years to his life) or even alluding to that notion, particularly in light of many other passages stating God changed His mind (repented) in those exact words.
Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Samuel 15:11, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Isaiah 38:1-5, Jeremiah 15:6, Jeremaih 18:8, Jeremaih 26:3, 13, 19, Amos 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:10
Bottom line is the exact words are not there, but a plain reading of the text shows just that... not "what He really meant by that was...". I did not say to only look at the text, but to just read the text plainly which does not hint of God saying under His breath (if He prays I wil add 15 years to his life) or even alluding to that notion, particularly in light of many other passages stating God changed His mind (repented) in those exact words.
Genesis 6:6, Exodus 32:14, Deuteronomy 32:36, 1 Samuel 15:11, 1 Samuel 15:35, 2 Samuel 24:16, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Isaiah 38:1-5, Jeremiah 15:6, Jeremaih 18:8, Jeremaih 26:3, 13, 19, Amos 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:10
Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you think God made a promise or decree that Hez. was going to die and then changed His promise. I believe it was a warning from God. You believe it was a promise and He changed His promise. Both of us are trying to understand the meaning of the text; neither of us are "reading into the text" so we can drop that charge (because if I am reading into the text, then you are too by assuming God made a promise).
Therefore, we both have to interpret this text in light of its context and the whole of Scripture. I don't think God changes His [unconditional*] promises, and I'm glad He doesn't (otherwise He could always renege on our salvation). I also think God knows the "beginning from the end" - He knows all, every detail before it happens. This is based on the overwhelming support of Scripture. Therefore, God was not surprised by Hezekiah's prayer.
*In your view, the promise to Hez. had to be unconditional, since we can't read into the text and say that God implicitly allowed for an exception of mercy to His "You shall die" promise.
I always understood a decree to be an order, and a promise as a legally binding declaration.
What is with the semantics? God said something...period. If a Dr. states a cancer patient will not live, is he decreeing it, promising it, making an unconditional order...or is he just making a statement? God simply, plainly said He would not recover. We are not given a condition, rather God made a simple declaration from which He changed His mind on later after hearing Hezekiah's prayer. Why is this hard for you to understand?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I know this is not the text you two are discussing, but its the same type of dialogue:
EX 32:
8 They have quickly turned from the way I commanded them; they have made for themselves an image of a calf. They have bowed down to it, sacrificed to it, and said, 'Israel, this is your God, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.' " 9 The Lord also said to Moses: "I have seen this people, and they are indeed a stiff-necked people. 10 Now leave Me alone, so that My anger can burn against them and I can destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation." 11 But Moses interceded with the Lord his God: "Lord, why does Your anger burn against Your people You brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and a strong hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'He brought them out with an evil intent to kill them in the mountains and wipe them off the face of the earth'? Turn from Your great anger and change Your mind about this disaster [planned] for Your people. 13 Remember that You swore to Your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Israel by Yourself and declared to them, 'I will make your offspring as numerous as the stars of the sky and will give your offspring all this land that I have promised, and they will inherit [it] forever.' " 14 So the Lord changed His mind about the disaster He said He would bring on His people.
Can it be anymore clear?
Marcia
Active Member
But if God is omniscient, he knew Hezekiah would ask for more time and He knew He would give it. So it comes down to whether or not God is omniscient.
Marcia
Active Member
But if God is omniscient, He knows the future. You make it sound like God doesn't know the future - doesn't know the outcome and doesn't know what He decides.
In actuality, God is beyond time - it is always now to God: He sees past, present, and future all at the same time. Therefore, God is not in time and nothing is hidden from Him (unless one is an Open Theist, who do say God does not know all).
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
BTW, I know you Calvinists think you are defending the Lord's sovereignty by trying to insist that he doesn't change his mind and such, but really when you think about it which is more impressive:
God decreeing/ordaining/determining all things before they occur so as to accomplish his purpose.
OR
God accomplishing his ultimate purposes in, through and despite all sinful and unholy things?
I think the latter is much more impressive and a much great display of His Sovereign abilities. Plus, you don't have to deal with the whole culpability of God issues and the tedious explanations of 2nd causes... etc.
God decreeing/ordaining/determining all things before they occur so as to accomplish his purpose.
OR
God accomplishing his ultimate purposes in, through and despite all sinful and unholy things?
I think the latter is much more impressive and a much great display of His Sovereign abilities. Plus, you don't have to deal with the whole culpability of God issues and the tedious explanations of 2nd causes... etc.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Omniscience = infinite characteristic of God
You = finite creation of God
Your conclusions = Finite and limited understanding (and contradictory to the revealed truth of scripture)
Marcia
Active Member
The words "You will not recover" are not in the NASB text:
1In those days Hezekiah became mortally ill And Isaiah the prophet the son of Amoz came to him and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, 'Set your house in order, for you shall die and not live.'"
Is it not true that Hezekiah was going to die? He did die 15 years later. So is not God warning him here? It is true Hezekiah will die; it's just a question of when.
God used Hezekiah's illness to bring him to repentance; God knew Hezekiah would repent and knew He would add 15 years.
We have to compare scripture to scripture; we see warnings from God over and over where He announces a punishment but then when repentance comes, God lifts the punishment. This is a pattern in the Bible; it has nothing to do with God changing his mind, which as I said before, can only mean that God is not omniscient.