Let GOD Be GOD!

[OldRegular]

GOD tells us in Matthew’s record of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 1:20-23
20.But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Note particularly that in Verse 21 we are told that this Virgin born son, JESUS, shall save his people from their sins.

Also note that Verse 23 tells us that through this virgin born son GOD is with us.

Now who are HIS people whom HE will save? What does Scripture tell us?

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So let GOD be GOD! Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus Christ came to save HIS people and HIS people only.

 

[Winman]

This is a misuse and misinterpretation of scripture. In Matt 1:21 "his people" means the Jews.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When the woman from Canaan came to Jesus because her daughter was vexed with a devil, Jesus would not at first even speak to her.

Matt 1:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

And this is when Jesus said he was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now, it is true that after the Jews rejected Jesus that the gospel was sent unto the Gentiles. And it is also true that when this woman continued to ask Jesus to help her daughter that he did heal her. But at the time Matthew 1:21 was spoken, at this time Jesus was sent unto the Jews only. So when it says he will save "his people" from their sins it is speaking of the Jews.

Here is what the Jamieson Fausset-Brown commentary says, just to show you I am not alone on this:

for he shall save-The "He" is here emphatic-He it is that shall save; He personally, and by personal acts (as Webster and Wilkinson express it).

his people-the lost sheep of the house of Israel, in the first instance; for they were the only people He then had. But, on the breaking down of the middle wall of partition, the saved people embraced the "redeemed unto God by His blood out of every kindred and people and tongue and nation."

So you see, they also agree that when Matt 1:21 was spoken, at that time it applied only to the Jews.

And you misapply this verse. Did 100% of the Jews get saved? Just because Jesus was sent to save them does not mean 100% were saved.

I am going to show you an analogy directly from scripture, although you will probably not accept it.

Luke 5:4 Now when he had left speaking, he said unto Simon, Launch out into the deep, and let down your nets for a draught.
5 And Simon answering said unto him, Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word I will let down the net.
6 And when they had this done, they inclosed a great multitude of fishes: and their net brake.

Peter had spent all night fishing and had caught nothing. Jesus commanded them to launch out into the deep and let down their nets. Peter obeyed and they caught many fish. But very importantly, please note it says "their net brake". Many fish got away. Jesus comes to save all men, but not all men will accept his free gift of salvation and so get away.

And it was so with the Jews. Jesus came to save all Israel (and the Gentiles later), but not all get saved. Some get away.

 

[kyredneck]

GOD tells us in Matthew’s record of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 1:20-23
20.But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23. Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Note particularly that in Verse 21 we are told that this Virgin born son, JESUS, shall save his people from their sins.

Also note that Verse 23 tells us that through this virgin born son GOD is with us.

Now who are HIS people whom HE will save? What does Scripture tell us?

John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

So let GOD be GOD! Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus Christ came to save HIS people and HIS people only.

:thumbs: :applause::thumbsup:

 

[menageriekeeper]

"Let God be God"

:laugh: As if any of us or what we believe could possibly prevent Him from being Himself! :laugh:

I agree with Winman on this one. You have misinterpreted the scripture to make it agree with how you believe.

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

Now I realize that some will claim that the term ”his people” applies to the Jews. This obviously did not happen as Jesus Christ was rejected by most of the Jews ao that cannot be the intent of the message revealed to Joseph by an angel of the LORD.

So Winman you are saying that Jesus Christ failed in HIS mission since the majority of the Jews rejected HIM and still do to this day. I expected that response and you did not fail me!

Winman you disappoint me. I thought that you used only Scripture and here I find you are using Jamieson Fausset-Brown! Have you been doing this all along but keeping it a secret? Shame on you, you have repeatedly chastized those who quoted other than SCRIPTURE. Now look at you. But if you want to read a correct exegesis of that passage consider John Gill:

Verse. 21. And she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Jesus. For though she was with child, it could not be known any otherwise than by prediction or divine revelation, that she should have a son, whose name should be called Jesus; a name of the same signification with Joshua and Hosea, and may be interpreted a "Saviour", Ac 13:23 for the word ewvy Jesus, comes from evy which signifies "to save." And to this agrees the reason of the name given by the Angel,

for he shall save his people from their sins.[/i The salvation here ascribed to him, and for which he is every way fit, being God as well as man, and which he is the sole author of, is to be understood, not of a temporal, but of a spiritual and everlasting salvation; such as was prophesied of, Isa 45:17 and which old Jacob had in his view, when he said, "I have waited for thy salvation, O Lord"[/i, Ge 49:18 which by the Jewish {f} Targumist is paraphrased thus:

``Jacob said when he saw Gideon the son of Joash, and Samson
the son of Manoah, that they would rise up to be saviours,
not for the salvation of Gideon do I wait, nor for the
salvation of Samson do I look, for their salvation is atevd
Nqrwp "a temporary salvation"; but for thy salvation, O
Lord, do I wait and look, for thy salvation is Nymle Nqrwp
"an everlasting salvation", or (according to another copy)
but for the salvation of Messiah the son of David, who shall
save the children of Israel, and bring them out of captivity,
for thy salvation my soul waiteth.''

By "his people" whom he is said to save are meant, not all mankind, though they are his by creation and preservation, yet they are not, nor will they be all saved by him spiritually and eternally; nor also the people of the Jews, for though they were his nation, his kinsmen, and so his own people according to the flesh, yet they were not all saved by him; many of them died in their sins, and in the disbelief of him as the Messiah: but by them are meant all the elect of God, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were given to him by his Father, as a peculiar people, and who are made willing in the day of his power upon them, to be saved by him in his own way. And these he saves from "their sins", from all their sins, original and actual; from secret and open sins; from sins of heart, lip and life; from sins of omission and commission; from all that is in sin, and omission upon it; from the guilt, punishment, and damning power of it, by his sufferings and death; and from the tyrannical government of it by his Spirit and grace; and will at last save them from the being of it, though not in this life, yet hereafter, in the other world, when they shall be without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.

Good old John Gill!

I realize that the Hebrew used by Gill did not appear in proper Hebrew but then neither you nor I read Hebrew so you won't mind.

 

[OldRegular]

"Let God be God"

:laugh: As if any of us or what we believe could possibly prevent Him from being Himself! :laugh:

You are wrong. Many on this Forum refuse to let GOD be GOD.

I agree with Winman on this one. You have misinterpreted the scripture to make it agree with how you believe.

Then you should show how I have misinterpreted the Scripture otherwise you have falsely accused me!

 

[kyredneck]

Ezekiel 34:
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered abroad, so will I seek out my sheep; and I will deliver them out of all places whither they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the peoples, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them into their own land; and I will feed them upon the mountains of Israel, by the watercourses, and in all the inhabited places of the country.
14 I will feed them with good pasture; and upon the mountains of the height of Israel shall their fold be: there shall they lie down in a good fold; and on fat pasture shall they feed upon the mountains of Israel.
15 I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah.
16 I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice.
17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I judge between sheep and sheep, the rams and the he-goats.
18 Seemeth it a small thing unto you to have fed upon the good pasture, but ye must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture? and to have drunk of the clear waters, but ye must foul the residue with your feet?
19 And as for my sheep, they eat that which ye have trodden with your feet, and they drink that which ye have fouled with your feet.
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah unto them: Behold, I, even I, will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep.
21 Because ye thrust with side and with shoulder, and push all the diseased with your horns, till ye have scattered them abroad;
22 therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep.

John 10:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
12 He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them:
13 he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
15 even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

 

[Amy.G]

John*1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
John 1:11
Verse 11. He came unto his own. His own land or country. It was called his land because it was the place of his birth, and also because it was the chosen land where God delighted to dwell and to manifest his favour. See Isa 5:1-7. Over that land the laws of God had been extended, and that land had been regarded as peculiarly his, Ps 147:19-20.
His own. His own people. There is a distinction here in the original words which is not preserved in the translation. It may be thus expressed: "He came to his own land and his own people received him not." They were his\ @people, because God had chosen them to be his above all other nations; had given to them his laws; and had signally protected and favoured them, De 7:6; 14:2.

Received him not. Did not acknowledge him to be the Messiah. They rejected him and put him to death, agreeably to the prophecy, Isa 53:3-4.

 

[Winman]

You are wrong. Many on this Forum refuse to let GOD be GOD.

Then you should show how I have misinterpreted the Scripture otherwise you have falsely accused me!

I showed how you misinterpreted this scripture.

#1 at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken it applied to only the Jews. Amy is exactly correct in that John 1:11 is speaking only of the Jews when it says he came unto "his own".

And you've got a serious problem there, because it says "his own received him not".

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

This proves your argument false.

#2 not everyone who Christ came to save actually gets saved.

So, you are misinterpreting and misapplying scripture to attempt to force it to prove your doctrine, but rightly interpreted scripture disproves your doctrine.

 

[The Archangel]

This is a misuse and misinterpretation of scripture. In Matt 1:21 "his people" means the Jews.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When the woman from Canaan came to Jesus because her daughter was vexed with a devil, Jesus would not at first even speak to her.

Matt 1:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

And this is when Jesus said he was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

First off, the passage you are quoting is Matthew 10, not Matthew 1.

Secondly, if you were correct in your interpretation Jesus would have refused to heal her daughter. He didn't. At the end of the passage, which you don't refer to at all, He does heal the daughter. It is obvious this was a test of faith for the woman. She demonstrated her faith in Christ.

Furthermore, your interpretation presupposes that God never intended to save Gentiles until the Jews rejected Christ. This is absurd. In Genesis 12--the call of Abraham--God tells him:

And I will make of you a great nation,
and I will bless you and make your name great,
so that you will be a blessing.

I will bless those who bless you,
and him who dishonors you I will curse,
[so that] in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed
​

God always intended to save Gentiles. The Jews' rejection of God and their subsequent rejection of Christ was all part of the plan. The Jews were intended to be a "Kingdom of Priests" and, therefore, a missionary nation--spreading and showing God's word to the nations. They failed...long before they rejected Christ.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

John*1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
John 1:11
Verse 11. He came unto his own. His own land or country. It was called his land because it was the place of his birth, and also because it was the chosen land where God delighted to dwell and to manifest his favour. See Isa 5:1-7. Over that land the laws of God had been extended, and that land had been regarded as peculiarly his, Ps 147:19-20.
His own. His own people. There is a distinction here in the original words which is not preserved in the translation. It may be thus expressed: "He came to his own land and his own people received him not." They were his\ @people, because God had chosen them to be his above all other nations; had given to them his laws; and had signally protected and favoured them, De 7:6; 14:2.

Received him not. Did not acknowledge him to be the Messiah. They rejected him and put him to death, agreeably to the prophecy, Isa 53:3-4.

You are correct Amy in respect to John 1:11. However, Scripture does not contradict itself, neither does it lie, so in Matthew 1:21 "HIS people" does not refer to the Jews but to those given to HIM by GOD the Father!

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

You need to go all the way back to the first book in the Bible and read Genesis 3:15, the promise of redemption long before GOD called Abraham.

Also you might try reading John 4 and the experience of the Samaritan woman with Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

Archangel, I did not fail to mention that when the Jews rejected Jesus that the gospel went to the Gentiles. But at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken it applied only to the Jews.

What are you talking about in Matthew 10?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Maybe your bible is messed up, this verse is in Matthew 1 in my bible.

I agree that God always intended to save the Gentiles, but not at the time Matthew 1:21 was written. That was later, read the writings of Paul.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Who did Jesus come to? HIS OWN. Did they receive him? No.

You need to study more.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree that God always intended to save the Gentiles, but not at the time Matthew 1:21 was written. That was later, read the writings of Paul.

Winman

You are beginning to sound like a hyper dispensationalist! GOD forbid!:tear::tear::tear::tear:

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel, I did not fail to mention that when the Jews rejected Jesus that the gospel went to the Gentiles. But at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken it applied only to the Jews.

What are you talking about in Matthew 10?

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Maybe your bible is messed up, this verse is in Matthew 1 in my bible.

You posted this:

This is a misuse and misinterpretation of scripture. In Matt 1:21 "his people" means the Jews.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

When the woman from Canaan came to Jesus because her daughter was vexed with a devil, Jesus would not at first even speak to her.

Matt 1:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

And this is when Jesus said he was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The passage you claim as Matthew 1:22-23 is not Matthew 1, it is Matthew 15. I myself inadvertently referred to it as Matthew 10. It is Matthew 15.

I agree that God always intended to save the Gentiles, but not at the time Matthew 1:21 was written. That was later, read the writings of Paul.

Maybe it is you who needs a new Bible. In my Bible, Genesis comes before the epistles of Paul.

You need to study more.

As if you don't. Your typical ugliness is not appreciated. I guess the more wrong you are the uglier you get?

The Archangel

 

[AresMan]

First off, the passage you are quoting is Matthew 10, not Matthew 1.

Secondly, if you were correct in your interpretation Jesus would have refused to heal her daughter. He didn't. At the end of the passage, which you don't refer to at all, He does heal the daughter. It is obvious this was a test of faith for the woman. She demonstrated her faith in Christ.

Furthermore, your interpretation presupposes that God never intended to save Gentiles until the Jews rejected Christ. This is absurd. In Genesis 12--the call of Abraham--God tells him:

And I will make of you a great nation,
and I will bless you and make your name great,
so that you will be a blessing.

I will bless those who bless you,
and him who dishonors you I will curse,
[so that] in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed
​

God always intended to save Gentiles. The Jews' rejection of God and their subsequent rejection of Christ was all part of the plan. The Jews were intended to be a "Kingdom of Priests" and, therefore, a missionary nation--spreading and showing God's word to the nations. They failed...long before they rejected Christ.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Let's not forget Isaiah 11:10:

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it [the root] shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Let's not forget Romans 9:23-26:

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? [God had vessels of mercy among the Gentiles which He "afore prepared" unto glory?!]
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea [Hos 2:23], I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Let's not forget Romans 10:19-20:

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith [Deu 32:21], I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith [Isa 65:1], I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

 

[AresMan]

This is a misuse and misinterpretation of scripture. In Matt 1:21 "his people" means the Jews.

The verse says "he SHALL SAVE his people from their sins." In other words, all who are "his people" actually become saved.

If you say that "his people" here are "the Jews" do you mean all Jews? If this is the case, then Jesus failed. A prophecy way made about Jesus that was proven utterly false?!

Also, you would have the problem of absurdity in your own assertions. If you assert that people (including "the Jews") have libertarian free will and that salvation requires the "cooperation" of this autonomous will with the otherwise ineffectual work of the Holy Spirit, how and why would God possibly make such a ridiculous and philosophically impossible claim to save "the Jews"?

 

[Amy.G]

God has always saved Gentiles. But until the resurrection of Christ, a Gentile had to become a Jew by conversion (Proselyte) in order to be saved. After Jesus went to the Father, anyone, Gentile or Jew was saved through faith In Christ and did not have to become a Jew first.

So, Jesus did come to just the Jews, but later the kingdom was opened up to anyone who had simple faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, without having to be circumcised and follow the Law.

 

[Amy.G]

Maybe this will help the Calvinists.

John Calvin's Verse Commentary
John 1:11

11. He came into his own. Here is displayed the absolutely desperate wickedness and malice of men; here is displayed their execrable impiety, that when the Son of God was manifested in flesh to the Jews, whom God had separated to himself from the other nations to be His own heritage, he was not acknowledged or received. This passage also has received various explanations. For some think that the Evangelist speaks of the whole world indiscriminately; and certainly there is no part of the world which the Son of God may not lawfully claim as his own property. According to them, the meaning is: "When Christ came down into the world, he did not enter into another person's territories, for the whole human race was his own inheritance." But I approve more highly of the opinion of those who refer it to the Jews alone; for there is an implied comparison, by which the Evangelist represents the heinous ingratitude of men. The Son of God had solicited an abode for himself in one nation; when he appeared there, he was rejected; and this shows clearly the awfully wicked blindness of men. In making this statement, the sole object of the Evangelist must have been to remove the offense which many would be apt to take in consequence of the unbelief of the Jews. For when he was despised and rejected by that nation to which he had been especially promised, who would reckon him to be the Redeemer of the whole world? We see what extraordinary pains the Apostle Paul takes in handling this subject.

Here both the Verb and the Noun are highly emphatic. He came. The Evangelist says that the Son of God came to that place where he formerly was; and by this expression he must mean a new and extraordinary kind of presence, by which the Son of God was manifested, so that men might have a nearer view of him. Into his own. By this phrase the Evangelist compares the Jews with other nations; because by an extraordinary privilege they had been adopted into the family of God. Christ therefore was first offered to them as his own household, and as belonging to his empire by a peculiar right. To the same purpose is that complaint of God by Isaiah:

The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib, but Israel knoweth me not, (Isa 1:3

for though he has dominion over the whole world, yet he represents himself to be, in peculiar manner, the Lord of Israel, whom he had collected, as it were, into a sacred fold.

 

[AresMan]

God has always saved Gentiles. But until the resurrection of Christ, a Gentile had to become a Jew by conversion (Proselyte) in order to be saved.

Did both Jew and Gentile have to keep the Law to be saved? If so, how was this possible?