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Soonness: A fact that needs to be dealt with
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
A prime example, no, THE prime example of the ten kings of Rev 'hating the Harlot and burning her with fire'.
So you don't get the gist of posts 30 & 31.
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I get it, but simply disagree with you. I fully believe the destruction of Jerusalem was an awful event, but it cannot compare to the Holocaust.
The problem with this doctrine is that the burden of proof is on you. You teach that Jesus returned in 70 A.D.. How has this escaped notice by the whole world for nearly 2000 years? The whole world knows about Jesus being born in a manger, they know about his crucifixion and how he rose from the dead. Everybody knows he promised to return.
But only a few people like you know he returned. When Jesus returns it will be the greatest event in all history, and yet almost no one knows about this.
Jesus is supposed to reign for 1000 years. That means he should have been on earth from 70 A.D. until 1070 A.D.. Well, where was he? How come this isn't in every history book? He sure kept a low profile.
No. You don't get it.
It isn't the numbers slain Winman. You don't 'get it'.
Did the Jews during the Holocaust turn on each other and kill one another in greater numbers than their common enemy, the Germans, did?
AND, as I pointed out, the Holocaust itself was wrath prophesied fulfilled.
There is a iron clad response!
Just because someone disagrees with your understanding (which is finite, btw) does not mean they don't get it. That's actually a response I would expect to hear from my son (who starts kindergarten next year)
There is a iron clad response!
Just because someone disagrees with your understanding (which is finite, btw) does not mean they don't get it. That's actually a response I would expect to hear from my son (who starts kindergarten next year)
Ah, webdog. Your holding true to form with your typical snide knee-jerk quips. You're also meddling in an ongoing dialog between Winman and me. If he feels offended by me, I'm sure he'll let me know.
I'm meddling in nothing since it's an open forum. If you don't like to hear "snide knee-jerk quips", don't be the first to provide one.
2. Forum Troll
A forum troll is someone who actively watches a forum. Not to be confused with a lurker, or just a forum frequenter, the troll annoys, pesters, and generally insults any thread they open. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=forum troll
Do you actually enjoy 'filling the bill' webdog?
Since I did not open this thread, and my post was the very first reply to the OP which contained none of the above, and my post was subject to your definition, I would think the author of the OP "fills this bill". I was simply pointing out one can "get it" and not agree, but apparently you think not. I'm glad you have things all figured out. I know pointing out arrogance is not taken lightly by those exhibiting this trait, but it is what it is.
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I've almost quit being involved in these eschatology debates because they for the most part end in an ad hominem and shibboleth sword fight with folks falling behind the views and authors of their choice to do battle.
What's the point?
Whatever is going to happen (or not happen) is what it will be.
As for myself I'm positioned somewhere between a "sane" or "moderate" dispensational and/or partial preterism point of view with the second return not having happened yet. Leaning more towards dispensationalism
yet always ready to learn, unlearn and/or re-learn.
I would like to make a remark concerning something Brother Tom said:
e.g.
Matthew 24
Face value of Jesus words? verses 29-31?
Or
Revelation 1
Not only they but the church fathers both early and late in disagreement these several centuries, almost 2 millenia.
/end_rant
Have we (myself included) forgotten?
HankD
What's the point?
Whatever is going to happen (or not happen) is what it will be.
As for myself I'm positioned somewhere between a "sane" or "moderate" dispensational and/or partial preterism point of view with the second return not having happened yet. Leaning more towards dispensationalism
yet always ready to learn, unlearn and/or re-learn.
I would like to make a remark concerning something Brother Tom said:
This is exactly the complaint which many dispensationalists have with the preterists point of view.
e.g.
Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Face value of Jesus words? verses 29-31?
Or
Revelation 1
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
OK, so we can in the separate camps either spirtualize the words above, expand or shrink them from their intended meaning with lexicons and commentaries, second guess the date of the books involved, etc, etc... and what have we proven? Who is being edified?
As in the past and given enough time if the moderators let it go long enough (and I'm not blaming them as they are not omni-present) folks here at the BB will start to question the salvation of others based upon their "blindness" to eschatological truths.
Truths BTW which even the prophets themselves who wrote about these events were also perplexed as to their meaning.
Truths BTW which even the prophets themselves who wrote about these events were also perplexed as to their meaning.
1 Peter 1
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Not only they but the church fathers both early and late in disagreement these several centuries, almost 2 millenia.
/end_rant
Have we (myself included) forgotten?
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
HankD
I realize Ad Hominems come up with these discussions. Yet I believe that the topic is an important one, having to do with the veracity of Christ as our great Prophet.
I, for one, wish that I had been exposed earlier to this preterist (and even partial-preterist) view. It just makes so much sense of so many verses that used to be outright puzzling.
The point is we are told to study these things out, to search out scripture.
Why stop at verse 31? What about the face value of v. 34?
As far as the seemingly cosmic events that you quoted you must also consider the cross-references from the Old Testament, events that clearly already happened, but were described in very similar terms. (If you want I will supply several passages like these).
Who is being edified? Well, those who recognize gold when they see it.
Jesus "spiritualized" the idea of "temple" when He went - in the very same sentence - from discussing a physical temple to the more important spiritual one. Should it seem so strange that the Bible is full of these spiritual concepts? The letter kills. The Spirit gives life. It is the spiritual interpretation that so often gets overlooked.
Finish the quote! Go into the next chapter of 1st Peter. The pattern here for us is not the limitations of the prophets of the OT, but the fullness of knowledge available to us in Christ. He that is greatest in the OT - John the Baptist - is least than the lowest in the Kingdom of Christ. We do not have a Spirit inside of us who prompts us to say to Christ, "Are you the One, or do we look for another?"
These church fathers very quickly, and with official bluster, went off the track in matters of ecclesiology (esp. overlordship), sacramentalism, matters of diet and abstinence from marriage, and, yes especially, in eschatology. They are not our patterns or mentors. I believe the one who first deviated greatly in eschatology - calling the seeming postponement of the Parousia a "temporary delay" - was the writer of the Shepherd of Hermas.
It is part of love to seek out the One loved. Love and doctrine are not contrary to each other. They complement each other. They encourage each other with fiery incentive. Paul prayed that our love (Phil. 1:9) "may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;"
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Part 1
I thought someone who is as condescending as you would appreciate someone else using sarcasm as a literary device.
Is this the double fulfillment theory? If so, why should we assume a two fold fulfillment?
No, it happened to pretty much the whole nation. You say you have read Josephus???
But you have already stated elsewhere we can't really know what "near or "soon" means.
I do like that "even at the door" comment though. Reminds me of what James said:
Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
So here we have James stating two things you were looking for, nearness and standing at the door. However you will reject both of those.
Ever read Acts or historians?
"Josephus informs us that an Egyptian false prophet led 30,000 into the desert, who were almost entirely cut off by Felix, the Roman procurator. And that in the reign of Claudius, "the land was overrun with magicians, seducers, and imposters, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitudes and deserts, to see the signs and miracles, which they promised to show by the power of God. Josephus, Antiq. lib. 20, c. viii., § 6" (p. 409)</STRONG>
I like how you add to scripture by saying it is world-wide despite the fact it says that nowhere.
Why would wars and rumors of war be a sign? Because of the Pax Romana. Keep studying.
You just can't help yourself can you? Where does Jesus say, "not even close"?
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
John Lightfoot:
[Nation shall rise against nation.] Besides the seditions of the Jews, made horridly bloody with their mutual slaughter, and other storms of war in the Roman empire from strangers, the commotions of Otho and Vitellius are particularly memorable, and those of Vitellius and Vespasian, whereby not only the whole empire was shaken, and the fortune of the empire changed with the change of the whole world, (they are the words of Tacitus), but Rome itself being made the scene of battle, and the prey of the soldiers, and the Capitol itself being reduced to ashes. Such throes the empire suffered, now bringing forth Vespasian to the throne, the scourge and vengeance of God upon the Jews.
John Gill:
But these have been already; they followed the Messiah, and preceded their destruction: one of these famines was in Claudius Caesar's time, was foretold by Agabus, and is mentioned in Act_11:28 and most dreadful ones there were, whilst Jerusalem was besieged, and before its utter ruin, related by Josephus.
Gill:
and earthquakes in divers places of the world; as, at Crete (n), and in divers cities in Asia (o), in the times of Nero: particularly the three cities of Phrygia, Laodicea, Hierapolis, and Colosse; which were near to each other, and are all said to perish this way, in his reign (p);
"and Rome itself felt a tremor, in the reign of Galba (q).''
Adam Clarke:
There was a famine foretold by Agabus, (Act_11:28), which is mentioned by Suetonius, Tacitus, and Eusebius; which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar, and was so severe at Jerusalem that Josephus says (Ant. b. xx. c. 2). many died for lack of food. Pestilences are the usual attendants of famines: as the scarcity and badness of provisions generally produce epidemic disorders.
See Acts.
See Paul's teaching.
John Gill (don't you just love our good Baptist forefather)
And many false prophets shall rise,.... Out of, from among the churches of Christ; at least under the name of Christians; for false teachers are here meant, men of heretical principles, pretending to a spirit of prophecy, and to new revelations, and a better understanding of the Scriptures; such as Simon Magus, Ebion, and Cerinthus, who denied the proper deity, and real humanity of Christ; Carpocrates, and the Gnostics his followers, the Nicolaitans, Hymcneus, Philetus, and others:
and shall deceive many: as they all of them had their followers, and large numbers of them, whose faith was subverted by them; and who followed their pernicious ways, being imposed upon and seduced by their fair words, specious pretences, and licentious practices.
Albert Barnes:
And because iniquity ... - The word "iniquity" here seems to include the cruelty of the Jews and Romans in their persecutions; the betraying of Christians by those who professed to be such; and the pernicious errors of false prophets arid others. The effect of all this would be, that the ardor of feeling of many Christians would be lessened. The word "wax" means to "become." It is an old Saxon word, not used now in this sense except in the Bible. The fear of death, and the deluding influence of false teachers, would lessen the zeal of many timid and weak professors; perhaps, also, of many real but feeble Christians.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world(oikoumenē)for a witness unto all nations(ethnos); and then shall the end come.
Paul using the very same words says this command had been fulfilled:
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations(ethnos) for the obedience of faith:
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world(oikoumenē).
Perhaps this is why Peter was able to proclaim the nearness of the end:
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
I thought someone who is as condescending as you would appreciate someone else using sarcasm as a literary device.
Is this the double fulfillment theory? If so, why should we assume a two fold fulfillment?
No, it happened to pretty much the whole nation. You say you have read Josephus???
But you have already stated elsewhere we can't really know what "near or "soon" means.
I do like that "even at the door" comment though. Reminds me of what James said:
Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
So here we have James stating two things you were looking for, nearness and standing at the door. However you will reject both of those.
Ever read Acts or historians?
"Josephus informs us that an Egyptian false prophet led 30,000 into the desert, who were almost entirely cut off by Felix, the Roman procurator. And that in the reign of Claudius, "the land was overrun with magicians, seducers, and imposters, who drew the people after them in multitudes into solitudes and deserts, to see the signs and miracles, which they promised to show by the power of God. Josephus, Antiq. lib. 20, c. viii., § 6" (p. 409)</STRONG>
I like how you add to scripture by saying it is world-wide despite the fact it says that nowhere.
Why would wars and rumors of war be a sign? Because of the Pax Romana. Keep studying.
You just can't help yourself can you? Where does Jesus say, "not even close"?
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
John Lightfoot:
[Nation shall rise against nation.] Besides the seditions of the Jews, made horridly bloody with their mutual slaughter, and other storms of war in the Roman empire from strangers, the commotions of Otho and Vitellius are particularly memorable, and those of Vitellius and Vespasian, whereby not only the whole empire was shaken, and the fortune of the empire changed with the change of the whole world, (they are the words of Tacitus), but Rome itself being made the scene of battle, and the prey of the soldiers, and the Capitol itself being reduced to ashes. Such throes the empire suffered, now bringing forth Vespasian to the throne, the scourge and vengeance of God upon the Jews.
John Gill:
But these have been already; they followed the Messiah, and preceded their destruction: one of these famines was in Claudius Caesar's time, was foretold by Agabus, and is mentioned in Act_11:28 and most dreadful ones there were, whilst Jerusalem was besieged, and before its utter ruin, related by Josephus.
Gill:
and earthquakes in divers places of the world; as, at Crete (n), and in divers cities in Asia (o), in the times of Nero: particularly the three cities of Phrygia, Laodicea, Hierapolis, and Colosse; which were near to each other, and are all said to perish this way, in his reign (p);
"and Rome itself felt a tremor, in the reign of Galba (q).''
Adam Clarke:
There was a famine foretold by Agabus, (Act_11:28), which is mentioned by Suetonius, Tacitus, and Eusebius; which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar, and was so severe at Jerusalem that Josephus says (Ant. b. xx. c. 2). many died for lack of food. Pestilences are the usual attendants of famines: as the scarcity and badness of provisions generally produce epidemic disorders.
See Acts.
See Paul's teaching.
John Gill (don't you just love our good Baptist forefather)
And many false prophets shall rise,.... Out of, from among the churches of Christ; at least under the name of Christians; for false teachers are here meant, men of heretical principles, pretending to a spirit of prophecy, and to new revelations, and a better understanding of the Scriptures; such as Simon Magus, Ebion, and Cerinthus, who denied the proper deity, and real humanity of Christ; Carpocrates, and the Gnostics his followers, the Nicolaitans, Hymcneus, Philetus, and others:
and shall deceive many: as they all of them had their followers, and large numbers of them, whose faith was subverted by them; and who followed their pernicious ways, being imposed upon and seduced by their fair words, specious pretences, and licentious practices.
Albert Barnes:
And because iniquity ... - The word "iniquity" here seems to include the cruelty of the Jews and Romans in their persecutions; the betraying of Christians by those who professed to be such; and the pernicious errors of false prophets arid others. The effect of all this would be, that the ardor of feeling of many Christians would be lessened. The word "wax" means to "become." It is an old Saxon word, not used now in this sense except in the Bible. The fear of death, and the deluding influence of false teachers, would lessen the zeal of many timid and weak professors; perhaps, also, of many real but feeble Christians.
.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world(oikoumenē)for a witness unto all nations(ethnos); and then shall the end come.
Paul using the very same words says this command had been fulfilled:
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations(ethnos) for the obedience of faith:
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world(oikoumenē).
Perhaps this is why Peter was able to proclaim the nearness of the end:
1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Part 2
Too bad Spurgeon never had the privilidge of reading Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye. He also was under the impression this had been fulfilled:
Spurgeon
"The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages, "in Judea ", availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city; the man "on the house-top" could "not come down to take anything out of his house", and the man "in the field" could not "return back, to take his clothes." They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste the moment that they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies "(Luke 21:20)."
Yep, and Paul said the Gospel had been preached to all nations just as Jesus said.
You have lost the argument by your own words!
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations(ethnos) for the obedience of faith:
Eusebius
"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground
Spurgeon
For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)
John Lightfoot:
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[For as the lightning, &c.] To discover clearly the sense of this and the following clauses, those two things must be observed which we have formerly given notice of:--
1. That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17, &c.
2. That Christ's taking vengeance of that exceeding wicked nation is called Christ's "coming in glory," and his "coming in the clouds," Daniel 7. It is also called, "the day of the Lord." See Psalm 1:4; Malachi 3:1,2, &c.; Joel 2:31; Matthew 16:28; Revelation 1:7, &c. See what we have said on chapter 12:20; 19:28.
The meaning, therefore, of the words before us is this: "While they shall falsely say, that Christ is to be seen here or there: 'Behold, he is in the desert,' one shall say; another, 'Behold, he is in the secret chambers': he himself shall come, like lightning, with sudden and altogether unexpected vengeance: they shall meet him whom they could not find; they shall find him whom they sought, but quite another than what they looked for."
Typical OT apocalyptic language used to describe the overthrow of Kingdoms and nations. Suprised you don't know this.
See Lightfoot Gill, etc.....
Spurgeon again:
"The King left his followers in no doubt as to when these things should happen: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." It was just about the ordinary limit of a generation when the Roman armies compassed Jerusalem, whose measure of iniquity was then full, and overflowed in misery, agony, distress, and bloodshed such as the world never saw before or since. Jesus was a true Prophet; everything that he foretold was literally fulfilled." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p.218)
FF Bruce:
"The phrase "this generation" is found too often on Jesus' lips in this literal sense for us to suppose that it suddenly takes on a different meaning in the saying we are now examining. Moreover, if the generation of the end-time had been intended, 'that generation' would have been a more natural way of referring to it than 'this generation. (The Hard Sayings of Jesus, p. 227)
Thank you.
Irrelevant, you have already lost the argument.
Too bad Spurgeon never had the privilidge of reading Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye. He also was under the impression this had been fulfilled:
Spurgeon
"The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages, "in Judea ", availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city; the man "on the house-top" could "not come down to take anything out of his house", and the man "in the field" could not "return back, to take his clothes." They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste the moment that they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies "(Luke 21:20)."
Yep, and Paul said the Gospel had been preached to all nations just as Jesus said.
You have lost the argument by your own words!
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations(ethnos) for the obedience of faith:
Eusebius
"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground
Spurgeon
For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)
John Lightfoot:
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[For as the lightning, &c.] To discover clearly the sense of this and the following clauses, those two things must be observed which we have formerly given notice of:--
1. That the destruction of Jerusalem is very frequently expressed in Scripture as if it were the destruction of the whole world, Deuteronomy 32:22; "A fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell" (the discourse there is about the wrath of God consuming that people; see verses 20,21), "and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." Jeremiah 4:23; "I beheld the earth, and lo, it was without form and void; and the heavens, and they had no light," &c. The discourse there also is concerning the destruction of that nation, Isaiah 65:17; "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered," &c. And more passages of this sort among the prophets. According to this sense, Christ speaks in this place; and Peter speaks in his Second Epistle, third chapter; and John, in the sixth of the Revelation; and Paul, 2 Corinthians 5:17, &c.
2. That Christ's taking vengeance of that exceeding wicked nation is called Christ's "coming in glory," and his "coming in the clouds," Daniel 7. It is also called, "the day of the Lord." See Psalm 1:4; Malachi 3:1,2, &c.; Joel 2:31; Matthew 16:28; Revelation 1:7, &c. See what we have said on chapter 12:20; 19:28.
The meaning, therefore, of the words before us is this: "While they shall falsely say, that Christ is to be seen here or there: 'Behold, he is in the desert,' one shall say; another, 'Behold, he is in the secret chambers': he himself shall come, like lightning, with sudden and altogether unexpected vengeance: they shall meet him whom they could not find; they shall find him whom they sought, but quite another than what they looked for."
Typical OT apocalyptic language used to describe the overthrow of Kingdoms and nations. Suprised you don't know this.
See Lightfoot Gill, etc.....
Spurgeon again:
"The King left his followers in no doubt as to when these things should happen: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled." It was just about the ordinary limit of a generation when the Roman armies compassed Jerusalem, whose measure of iniquity was then full, and overflowed in misery, agony, distress, and bloodshed such as the world never saw before or since. Jesus was a true Prophet; everything that he foretold was literally fulfilled." (The Gospel of the Kingdom, p.218)
FF Bruce:
"The phrase "this generation" is found too often on Jesus' lips in this literal sense for us to suppose that it suddenly takes on a different meaning in the saying we are now examining. Moreover, if the generation of the end-time had been intended, 'that generation' would have been a more natural way of referring to it than 'this generation. (The Hard Sayings of Jesus, p. 227)
Thank you.
Irrelevant, you have already lost the argument.
Why is it that you seem to be unable to restrain yourself. I know you can do it if you try. I believe in you :thumbs:
There is no 'theory' to it. It is simply a fact.
How many prophesies, especaially about Jesus and His coming were two fold prophesies? Was 70 ad a fulfillment of prophesy? Yes, but it is also only a shadowy picture to what is coming.
We also know it is two fold, because not all of them have been fulfilled according to how 'scripture' states they will come to pass. And since scripture states once all these things happen the end shall come with Jesus coming in the clouds, seen by all. An by this we can KNOW that it has not all come to pass. It has been just over 2000 years since you say (and also Full Prets), they have been fulfilled but still there is not nor has there been, an end - no Jesus coming as was prophesied.
I will touch on this a little more down below as this completely disproves the preterist view, both parital and most especially full.
You misunderstood me. I didn't mean it happened to only part or a portion of the nation but that the prophesy was fulfilled in part through the nation.
Yes I have not only read him but many times. I love History.
If you are going to tell me what I said brother, please do so correctly. I never made any such statement. What I said is that 'near or soon' can be understood according to context. However the very terms themselves do not speak of a specific moment only of a moment to come, though the timing can be obtained regarding sometime quickly or sometime later.
Yes, and all the apostles and their disciples though Jesus was coming back in their lifetime because it seems prophesy was being fulfilled all around them. They assumed this because when the prophesy was fulfilled according to those same prophesies, Jesus will come back. It was for this reason they had such expectations. Yet note the prophesy in Mat 24:
Note that scripture is SPECIFIC that when all these things are fulfilled Jesus will come. Please to special note 'the generation' that sees all these things, they were to understand that it [the end] is near even at the doors. And "this generation" (the one that sees it) shall not pass away / die till it is ALL fulfilled - that INCLUDES Christ's coming in the clouds.
Therefore, in light of biblical evidence we know these prophesies are all fulfilled and thus preterism (both full and partial) are bibilcal not only in correct but incompatable with scripture. This can be primarily based (but not soley based) on Mat 24:33-34.
Acts does not speak of many false christs nor does Josephus speak about many false christ's. Both actaully speak to false prophets and Josephus speaks of magicians as well. The terms 'seducers and imposters' typically referces to false prophets or false messengers of God. These are not the same as false christs and in fact Jesus even distinquishes between the two by stating both groups will abound.
It was not addition at all but a contextual analysis. Since nation will be against nation and Kingdom against Kingdom, it is a world wide unrest. Nothing incorrect about it.
I have and hopefully will help you out here somewhat.
Pax Romana has nothing to do it being a 'sign'.
For one, it was in place nearly 30 years before Christ's birth and in place nearly 170 to 180 years later. In fact according ever sourse I can find they are state pretty much the same thing. Here is an excert from the Online Encyclopedia Britanica:
The sign was not that of infighting in one nation but of nations against nation, and kingdoms against kingdoms. It is where both allies and foes alike are at a place of disquiet, arguing, waring, and posturing against one another.
Again, context demonstrates. If the list still has much more to go before it is at it's end then the logical conclusion, is that the end is not yet, or IOW - not close yet.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
While Lightfoot is correct in what transpired with Rome (a single nation), it give no credence to the prophesy of nation against nation and kingdom against kingdom. This infers more than one nation at odds with others. The above that Lightfoot speaks to, is actaully an internal battle known as the battle of four Emperors or the Year of Four Emperors. It was a civil war of Rome and only last about a year. This was not nations against nation against nation nor kingdom against kindom.
There is no reason for me to respond to the rest of your quoting as, like you, I can call up many commentators for my view as well. However what is the clincher of THIS discussion and disprover of the preterists views is what I have already posted previously regarding the Matthew passage.
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You need to take into account more the manner in which God uses imagery, esp. in the OT:
Isa. 19: 1 The burden against Egypt.
Behold, the LORD rides on a swift cloud,
And will come into Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will totter at His presence,
And the heart of Egypt will melt in its midst.
2 “ I will set Egyptians against Egyptians;
Everyone will fight against his brother,
And everyone against his neighbor,
City against city, kingdom against kingdom.
Are the Egyptians also awaiting a double fulfillment here, since the Lord did not come to them in a literal cloud? No, they got their fulfillment if the OT - just as the Jews got theirs in AD70.
Dear brother Tom,
I don't mind a debate even a lively one and to tell the truth, I want to be corrected where it is possible in the light of the Scriptures.
Insult and innuendo are tools of division not unity and as I said, I am and have been guilty. With the Lord's help I have put down the sword of battle and picked up the sword of the Word.
Yes we have the indwelling Spirit, however the church age (or whatever word(s) fit your venue) is typified by error in spite of the Spirit of God dwelling in the children of God. We are flesh as well.
Eschatology being one of the most challenging areas of Christianity (as your own journey bears witness).
In the spirit of wisdom and understanding along with the agape concern for each other here is an example I've used of the more literal promised fulfilments in Scripture (IMO):
In Acts 1
I don't mind a debate even a lively one and to tell the truth, I want to be corrected where it is possible in the light of the Scriptures.
Insult and innuendo are tools of division not unity and as I said, I am and have been guilty. With the Lord's help I have put down the sword of battle and picked up the sword of the Word.
Yes we have the indwelling Spirit, however the church age (or whatever word(s) fit your venue) is typified by error in spite of the Spirit of God dwelling in the children of God. We are flesh as well.
Eschatology being one of the most challenging areas of Christianity (as your own journey bears witness).
In the spirit of wisdom and understanding along with the agape concern for each other here is an example I've used of the more literal promised fulfilments in Scripture (IMO):
In Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
Here the question posed concerning the restoration of the kingdom to Israel gets the virtual answer that for the moment it's not the main issue but that He (this same Jesus) will return in the same manner as He left, so not to worry, He will take care of business in His own time.
One could safely assume from this Acts 1 passage a bodily return of this same Jesus to the same place from whence He left.
In fact:
Zechariah 14
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
To me, passages such as this indicate more than an allegory or a metaphor concerning Israel and Jerusalem but the literal promise of Israel's final deliverance from the battle of Megiddo in the plain of Jezreel (Hosea)and the end of the "times of the Gentiles" spoken of by both Christ and Paul.
Luke 21
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
In any event it is difficult for me to envision this passage in Zechariah as metaphorical of the Church or the sack of Jerusalem circa AD70 by Titus given the whole counsel of God especially the difficulty it encounters with this period of time (of the Gentiles) refered to by both Jesus and Paul and the subsequent literal return of that Deliverer (who has "feet") to the Mount of Olives to deliverer Israel/Jerusalem promised by God in Zechariah in that Jesus did not return in AD70 to the mount of Olives and deliver Israel/Jerusalem from the Romans (actually "all nations") as promised in Zechariah.
It doesn't help and in fact is counter productive when there are elements of sarcasm, ridicule, insult and innuendo (both directly and oblique) from the various defenders of differing sides.
My point is that these discussions could be turned into something edifying rather than dividing if we remove these fleshy remarks from our posts (myself included of course).
Anyway, how do you see the the comparison of the Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 passages?
Are they related do you think?
Thanks
HankD
HankD
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Great post Hank, and many of the scriptures you showed, especially in Zechariah are what show me preterism is error IMO.
I believe when the Jews flee from this advancing army, it will be very similar to when the Jews fled from Pharaoh and passed through the Red Sea.
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Only this time, it will be Mt. Olivet itself that divides in two and makes an escape path for the Jews.
Zech 4:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
One thing we know for certain, Mt. Olivet did not divide in two in 70 A.D..
I believe when the Jews flee from this advancing army, it will be very similar to when the Jews fled from Pharaoh and passed through the Red Sea.
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Only this time, it will be Mt. Olivet itself that divides in two and makes an escape path for the Jews.
Zech 4:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
One thing we know for certain, Mt. Olivet did not divide in two in 70 A.D..
There are many prophecies both in the major and minor prophets which speak of the restoration of Israel/Judah. In the Book of Hosea this valley coming out of the Mt of Olives may be the expanded "Valley of Jezreel":
Hosea 1
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
HankD
HankD