Define "The Gospel"

[DHK]

In 1John 2:2(NIV) we are told that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

This is a very poor translation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He is the propitiation--the satisfaction; the penalty that has already been paid. It is a done act. It is a penalty that already has been paid. The meaning here is that he already has satisfied (legally) the demands of the Father--and he did so by paying the penalty with his blood. There was no other way.

in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

Nonsense! Christ paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. The unsaved don't need a priest; they need a Savior. Only the saved (priests before God) are able to have a High Priest. Their sins have already been atoned for. This has nothing to do with salvation. He intercedes for us, but not for our salvation. There is nothing here about salvation--nothing.

In 1John 2:1 we are told to "sin not" and then it said "but IF anyone does sin we HAVE an ADVOCATE with the Father".

in Christ,

Bob

He writes to: "My little children"
We believers have an advocate with the Father. That is why we pray in "Jesus name." Again it has nothing to do with salvation. To the unsaved they don't need an advocate; they need a Savior.

 

[BobRyan]

in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

Nonsense!

A papal "no" then?

That only works for as long as you do not open your Bible to the chapters I listed.



Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''[/quote]


Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.

The unsaved don't need a priest; they need a savior.
Thus the atonement is finished.
If Christ is not your Savior now, before you die; he will be your judge after you die. It is one or the other. You choose. Savior or judge. Which one?
Only after a person becomes saved does he become a priest (the priesthood of the believer) and is entitled access to the High Priest. That has nothing to do with salvation.

Is He your Savior, or will He be your Judge. That is the choice.

 

[BobRyan]

In 1John 2:2(NIV) we are told that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

This is a very poor translation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
He is the propitiation--the satisfaction; the penalty that has already been paid. It is a done act. It is a penalty that already has been paid. The meaning here is that he already has satisfied (legally) the demands of the Father--and he did so by paying the penalty with his blood. There was no other way.

Turns out -- that is what "Atoning Sacrifice" means.

“Atoning Sacrifice” NIV (Strongs 2434: Hilasmos

the same term is used in Ezek 44 where they translate the word as “Sin offering”. Ezek 44:27 “Sin offering”.

Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Ezek+44%3A27&section=0&it=nas&oq=ro%25203%3A25&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1&nb=ro&ng=3&ncc=3
Ezek 44:27
"On the day that he goes into the sanctuary, into the inner court to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering," declares the Lord GOD.
kai h an hmera eisporeuwntai eiv thn aulhn thn eswteran tou leitourgein en tw agiw prosoisousin ilasmon legei kuriov o qeov

Ilasmon link –
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434


Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” (strongs 2433 (middle voice of 2436): Hilaskomai
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=eze+45%3A20&section=0&it=nas&oq=eze%252045&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1&nb=eze&ng=45&ncc=45

45:20
"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.
kai outwv poihseiv en tw ebdomw mhni mia tou mhnov lhmyh par' ekastou apomoiran kai ecilasesqe ton oikon


So the NIV is correct in translating this as “Atoning Sacrifice” for the “Sin offering” of Lev 16.

 

[steaver]

So you are saying that Heb 8:7-11 is a tough read?

The Gospel promises made in the Bible - (as we see in that "tough read") are brought about through the mechanism of Atonement that God Himself defines in Lev 16. There we see not only the spotless life of Christ - we also see His perfect atoning sacrifice and the work of Christ as our High Priest as portrayed in the Day of Atonement symbols.

in Christ,

Bob

Do you have all of this memorized so that when you have no bible in your hand and a lost person asked you how to be saved you recite Hebrews through memory?

I wonder how this would sound;

(Lost person, knows zip about the bible or God) says, Hey Bob, you worship God, what must I do to be saved?

(BobRyan) says,
The Gospel promises made in the Bible are brought about through the mechanism of Atonement that God Himself defines in Lev 16. There we see not only the spotless life of Christ - we also see His perfect atoning sacrifice and the work of Christ as our High Priest as portrayed in the Day of Atonement symbols.

(Lost person) Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh...............What?

Do you think you just did God a service leading this person to salvation?

Can you tell a lost person how to be saved without a bible in your hand Bob? Or taking them to a church meeting?

How would you answer this person?

Or does SDA teach you to not respond unless you can have them read Hebrews for themselves?

 

[steaver]

They had faith, but they had not Faith In Jesus Christ.

Big difference.

So, in response to another post, yes, it is as simple as, "Believe on the name of Jesus Christ."

That is the Gospel.

This does not negate the need for repentance, which, like faith and belief, is always the end result of God's word when a sinner turns to God for salvation.

Old Testament Gospel...God is saviour.

New Testament Gospel...God is saviour.

Hope all is well with you.

God bless.

The Jews today who reject Jesus as Christ would confess that the only true God of Abraham is God their Saviour.

Are they saved?

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Steaver.

The Jews today who reject Jesus as Christ would confess that the only true God of Abraham is God their Saviour.

Are they saved?

I would say no.

Rejection of Christ is the same for all, just as turning to Him in faith is the same for all.

"They (the gentiles) shall be saved like as we."

Far be it from me to assume to understand God in all His mercy, but scripture is pretty clear that the Jews who professed the God of Abraham were not the seed of Abraham, and why would that be any different today?

I see it as a loophole that would create two gospels (one for the Old Testament, one for the New), two Saviours, two people of God, which, if that is the case, the Jews are not saved "like as we."

When a Jew rejected Christ in His earthly ministry, he was granted no special priveleges.

Why would it be different today?

But...thats just what I believe scripture teaches.

Not politically correct I know, but then, I never was any good at math!

I would just add this: as God revealed Himself to man through specific means, we are told that in these last days He hath spoken to us by His Son.

There is no scriptural evidence that suggests otherwise.

God bless.

 

[DHK]

In 1John 2:2(NIV) we are told that the "Atoning Sacrifice" was completed at the cross.

And it was.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

And he--Greek, "And Himself." He is our all-prevailing Advocate, because He is Himself "the propitiation"; abstract, as in 1Co 1:30: He is to us all that is needed for propitiation "in behalf of our sins"; the propitiatory sacrifice, provided by the Father's love, removing the estrangement, and appeasing the righteous wrath, on God's part, against the sinner. "There is no incongruity that a father should be offended with that son whom he loveth, and at that time offended with him when he loveth him" [BISHOP PEARSON]. The only other place in the New Testament where Greek "propitiation" occurs, is 1Jo 4:10; it answers in the Septuagint to Hebrew, "caphar," to effect an atonement or reconciliation with God; and in Eze 44:29, to the sin offering. In Ro 3:25, Greek, it is "propitiatory," that is, the mercy seat, or lid of the ark whereon God, represented by the Shekinah glory above it, met His people, represented by the high priest who sprinkled the blood of the sacrifice on it. (Jamieson, Faucett and Brown)

1Jo 2:2
Verse 2. And he is the propitiation for our sins. The word rendered propitiation (ilasmoV) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in 1Jo 4:10 of this epistle; though words of the same derivation, and having the same essential meaning, frequently, occur. The corresponding word ilasthrion (hilasterion) occurs in Ro 3:25, rendered propitiation--"whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood;" and in Heb 9:5, rendered mercy-seat--"shadowing the mercy-seat." The verb ilaskomai (hilaskomai) occurs also in Lu 18:3--"God be merciful to me a sinner;" and Heb 2:17--"to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." For the idea expressed by these words, Cmt. on Ro 3:25. The proper meaning of the word is that of reconciling, appeasing, turning away anger, rendering propitious or favourable. The idea is, that there is anger or wrath, or that something has been done to offend, and that it is needful to turn away that wrath, or to appease. This may be done by a sacrifice, by songs, by services rendered, or by bloody offerings. (Barnes)

 

[BobRyan]

The idea is, that there is anger or wrath, or that something has been done to offend, and that it is needful to turn away that wrath, or to appease. This may be done by a sacrifice, by songs, by services rendered, or by bloody offerings. (Barnes)

In the greek pagan model - someone "so appeases the angry deity that the deity turns away his anger from the tribespeople". The greeks called this form of appeasement of their pagan gods - propitiation.

In the Bilble "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" - God calls it the "Atonement" model.

The same word that you find in 1Joh 2:2 - you also find in Lev 16 in the LXX.

1John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.[/quote]

“Atoning Sacrifice” NIV (Strongs 2434: Hilasmos
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Lev+16%3A2&section=0&it=nas&oq=Ezek%252044%3A27&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1&nb=eze&ng=44&ncc=44

1 John 2:2 NAS
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
kai autov ilasmov estin peri twn amartiwn hmwn, ou peri twn hmeterwn de monon alla kai peri olou tou kosmou.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

In the greek pagan model - someone "so appeases the angry deity that the deity turns away his anger from the tribespeople". The greeks called this form of appeasement of their pagan gods - propitiation.

In the Bilble "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" - God calls it the "Atonement" model.

The same word that you find in 1Joh 2:2 - you also find in Lev 16 in the LXX.

in Christ,

Bob

He tells you how the word is used in the Greek language. The deity (God the Father) must be appeased (satisfied). His anger must be turned away. And God's anger was turned away momentarily as God the Son bore the full weight of the sin of the world upon his shoulder. Could you not hear the cry: "My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me!" The cry of the Son when the Father had "forsaken" him. It was the time when his "anger" or wrath against the sin of the world was appeased. Atonement had been made.

 

[BobRyan]

The same 1John 2:2 word translated "Atoning Sacrifice" for NIV --

is found here in the LXX

Ezek 44 where they translate the word as “Sin offering”. Ezek 44:27 “Sin offering”.

Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=Ezek+44%3A27&section=0&it=nas&oq=ro%25203%3A25&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1&nb=ro&ng=3&ncc=3
Ezek 44:27
"On the day that he goes into the sanctuary, into the inner court to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering," declares the Lord GOD.
kai h an hmera eisporeuwntai eiv thn aulhn thn eswteran tou leitourgein en tw agiw prosoisousin ilasmon legei kuriov o qeov

Ilasmon link –
http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2434

 

[BobRyan]

In God's model "God so LOVED that HE gave His only son" John 3.


God calls this the "Atonement Model"

Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” (strongs 2433 (middle voice of 2436): Hilaskomai
http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=eze+45%3A20&section=0&it=nas&oq=eze%252045&ot=lxx&nt=na&new=1&nb=eze&ng=45&ncc=45

45:20
"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goesastray or is naive; so you shall makeatonement for the house.
kaioutwvpoihseiventwebdomwmhnimiatoumhnovlhmyhpar'ekastou apomoiran kaiecilasesqetonoikon

http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=2435

 

[BobRyan]

It is "Mercy Seat" in Lev 16 -- in the Day of Atonement model

Lev 16 “Mercy Seat”
16:2
The LORDsaid to Moses: "Tell your brotherAaron that he shall not enter at anytime into the holy place inside* the veil, before* the mercyseatwhich is on the ark, or he will die; for I will appear in the cloudover the mercyseat.

 

[BobRyan]

in Heb 4, 7, 8, 9 and chapter 10 we are told that Christ is now ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest.


Heb 7
25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "" SEE,'' He says, ""THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.''

Heb 9:11
"But WHEN Christ APPEARED as a HIGH PRIEST of the GOOD things
to come HE ENTERED through the GREATER and MORE PERFECT TABERNACLE, NOT MADE with HANDS, that IS to say, NOT OF THIS creation;..



Heb 9:23
"THEREFORE it was necessary that the COPIES OF the THINGS in
heaven to be cleansed with these, but the HEAVENLY THINGS THEMSELVES
with BETTER sacrifices than these. For Christ did NOT enter a holy place MADE'
with HANDS, a MERE COPY of the TRUE ONE, but into HEAVEN ITSELF"


Christs role as our High Priest after the cross is essential for salvation according to the writer of Hebrews --.


Heb 5
8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

[/QUOTE]

The unsaved don't need a priest; they need a savior.
Thus the atonement is finished.
.

DHK guesswork "noted".

However - I was going with scripture in this case.

 

[DHK]

Bob,
Do you wear clothing of all one kind?
Do you stone those that are guilty of sexual immorality?
Do you put to death all those guilty of murder (all who have an abortion)
If you ever come across new age wiccans (the equivalent of the OT witches) would you do your best to put them to death?
Every time you sin do you offer a sin offering--a calf? a goat?
Do you keep all the OT law?

If not, why not?
If you choose to keep the law concerning the Atonement and keep referring to the mercy seat and other OT furniture, then to be consistent keep all the law including the sacrifices and offerings. Why not pretend that Christ didn't even die.

The OT ceremonies concerning the Atonement have nothing to do with Christ's atonement for us. They were but shadows of things to come. It has all been fulfilled. It is over.

The death of Christ is over. The penalty has been paid. Atonement for sin has already been accomplished. Your references to the OT atonement are moot and needless. If you cannot explain the atonement using only the NT then you have a great misunderstanding of what it is.

 

[DHK]

DHK guesswork "noted".

However - I was going with scripture in this case.

No:
No guesswork involved.
However I don't follow the work of a false prophetess either. And that is what you have been posting, not the Bible. You have been posting Scripture--according to EGW, but nothing to do with the Atonement made by Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you have all of this memorized so that when you have no bible in your hand and a lost person asked you how to be saved you recite Hebrews through memory?

I wonder how this would sound;

(Lost person, knows zip about the bible or God) says, Hey Bob, you worship God, what must I do to be saved?

(BobRyan) says,
The Gospel promises made in the Bible are brought about through the mechanism of Atonement that God Himself defines in Lev 16

You would prefer "some papal pronouncement" instead of scripture?

Tell us how that would work.

Inquiring minds want to know.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So you are saying that Heb 8:7-11 is a tough read?

The Gospel promises made in the Bible - (as we see in that "tough read") are brought about through the mechanism of Atonement that God Himself defines in Lev 16. There we see not only the spotless life of Christ - we also see His perfect atoning sacrifice and the work of Christ as our High Priest as portrayed in the Day of Atonement symbols.

Bob,
The OT ceremonies concerning the Atonement have nothing to do with Christ's atonement for us.

2Tim 3:16-17 - ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS profitable for doctrine -- (teaching, correction)

Speaking of Passover - "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

Speaking of First Fruits "Christ the First Fruits of the dead" 1Cor 15.

Speaking of Feast of Pentecost - Acts 2 (Well hopefully you are familiar with that part of the NT already) --



Thus - as it turns out - God is the one that defines the subject of Atonement - and His Word "matters".

At least to those who choose a sola scriptura model for testing doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Speaking of Passover - "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

Speaking of First Fruits "Christ the First Fruits of the dead" 1Cor 15.

Speaking of Pentecost - Acts 2 (Well hopefully you are familiar with that part of the NT alread) --



Thus - as it turns out - God is the one that defines the subject of Atonement - and His Word "matters".

At least to those who choose a sola scriptura model for testing doctrine.

in Christ,

Bob

God has defined. It is defined for us in the NT, not in the OT.
It is defined on God's terms; not on EGW's terms.

 

[BobRyan]

God has defined. It is defined for us in the NT, not in the OT.

The NT saints of the first century refer to what you claim to ignore as "the Old Testament" - as "Scripture"

Thus in Acts 17:11 "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul were SO".

Amazing that the same texts that are brought up to the Catholic members of this board - need to be presented to DHK! -- WOW!



2Tim 3:16-17 - ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS profitable for doctrine -- (teaching, correction)

Speaking of Passover - "Christ our Passover has been sacrificed" 1Cor 5.

Speaking of First Fruits "Christ the First Fruits of the dead" 1Cor 15.

Speaking of Feast of Pentecost - Acts 2 (Well hopefully you are familiar with that part of the NT already) --

And thus the teaching in the OT on the doctrine of Atonement - as we find it in Lev 16 - is seen revealed again in the NT in the form of Christ as the "Atoning Sacrifice" (1John 2:2 NIV) -- though apparently DHK thinks Ellen White wrote 1John 2:2 - for some odd reason.

And in the book of Hebrews where Christ NOW performs the saving work of High Priest -as stated by Paul - and as predicted by God in Lev 16.

so much scripture for DHK to ignore -- so little time.



in Christ,

Bob


in Christ,

Bob