Commandment keeping

[DHK]

Matthew 7:21-22
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

I guess the question could be asked, are there many who believed they are saved and yet never were. There does come a time when the true believer is no longer under the penalty of the law. Have you been to the schoolmaster?

The context is false prophets.
Earlier Jesus says: Beware of false prophets.
When you quoted Mat.7:21-22, why not quote verse 23 as well:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them in the first place. They were not his sheep. They were pretenders. They were sheep in wolves clothing--false teachers.

 

[Chowmah]

The context is false prophets.
Earlier Jesus says: Beware of false prophets.
When you quoted Mat.7:21-22, why not quote verse 23 as well:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them in the first place. They were not his sheep. They were pretenders. They were sheep in wolves clothing--false teachers.

Do you believe that they believed they were true followers?

 

[DHK]

Do you believe that they believed they were true followers?

I will give you an example.
Benny Hinn believes that he is a true follower; a true believer, and a true prophet of God.

Benny Hinn believes that there are nine persons in the trinity. Not only is this heresy that puts him outside the realm of orthodox Christianity, it shows his inability to do basic Math.

 

[annsni]

Matthew 7:21-22
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


Hi annsni
What about the guys and gals spoken of in above scripture? They thought they were believers in Christ. Even cast out devils in the name of Jesus. Somehow, somewhere, something in the Word of God is not being followed by the "many" and "in that day" only a few will be saved. Jesus tells us that. Can you lose your salvation? I guess the question could be asked, are there many who believed they are saved and yet never were. There does come a time when the true believer is no longer under the penalty of the law. Have you been to the schoolmaster?

We see LOTS of people today who say "I'm a Christian because I go to church." That has nothing to do with salvation but it's enough for someone I'm SURE who will stand before God arguing with Him about it.

But anyone who is saved by the grace of God has full assurance of their salvation because they know that it is not anything they've done. I cannot ever stand before God and say "I deserve to get into heaven because I obeyed every command you gave." I can only stand (?) at the throne and say "It's only by Jesus' blood that I can even be considered."

 

[Chowmah]

The context is false prophets.
Earlier Jesus says: Beware of false prophets.
When you quoted Mat.7:21-22, why not quote verse 23 as well:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He never knew them in the first place. They were not his sheep. They were pretenders. They were sheep in wolves clothing--false teachers.

But what do the scriptures say about knowing God DHK?

1 John 2:3-5
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

 

[Chowmah]

I will give you an example.
Benny Hinn believes that he is a true follower; a true believer, and a true prophet of God.

Benny Hinn believes that there are nine persons in the trinity. Not only is this heresy that puts him outside the realm of orthodox Christianity, it shows his inability to do basic Math.

NINE! yiko!

 

[Chowmah]

Does Benny still call the nine a trinity or does he call them a nonagonity?

 

[Chowmah]

But anyone who is saved by the grace of God has full assurance of their salvation because they know that it is not anything they've done. I cannot ever stand before God and say "I deserve to get into heaven because I obeyed every command you gave." I can only stand (?) at the throne and say "It's only by Jesus' blood that I can even be considered."

No doubt about it. You are saved only by the grace of God.

1 Peter 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

But when does this grace come? The scripture above seems very clear. Are there any scriptures that say the grace of God comes to anyone before the end.

 

[DHK]

Does Benny still call the nine a trinity or does he call them a nonagonity?

Whatever he calls the trinity, he has deceived many, and has a great following. Many are deceived by him.

 

[DHK]

But when does this grace come? The scripture above seems very clear. Are there any scriptures that say the grace of God comes to anyone before the end.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Chowmah]

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephes. 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


What do ya think "That in the ages to come" might mean? Could it be that grace is not present while alive? Could we recieve this grace at the revelation of Jesus Christ as stated in 1Peter1? In the twinkling of an eye, then off to the 1000yr period of rest. To the Kingdom? At the 1st resurrection when the dead in Christ rise first.

 

[Chowmah]

Whatever he calls the trinity, he has deceived many, and has a great following. Many are deceived by him.

Yeah DHK, its really a shame. Ive seen a show or 2 of his. Seems he draws a lot in by promising healing miracles.

 

[DHK]

Ephes. 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


What do ya think "That in the ages to come" might mean? Could it be that grace is not present while alive? Could we recieve this grace at the revelation of Jesus Christ as stated in 1Peter1? In the twinkling of an eye, then off to the 1000yr period of rest. To the Kingdom? At the 1st resurrection when the dead in Christ rise first.

There has always been and will always be grace with Jesus Christ. It is because of the grace that was demonstrated to us on the cross that we can be saved.

Here is the ASV translation of the same verse:
Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),

1. We were dead through our trespasses. Sin separated us from God. It is past tense.
2. Christ made us alive. This is also in the past. At a point in the past Christ made us alive. It was by his grace that this was possible.
3. By grace have ye been saved. Again in the past. I have been saved because of his grace. He demonstrated his grace on the cross. I believed and was saved. Salvation is all of Christ. By grace are ye saved.

 

[Chowmah]

Yeah DHK

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Found many scriptures which point to Gods grace being with man as he lives. I found the scripture of 1Peter1 and ran with it without looking into other scriptures which speak of the grace of God. Sorry.

 

[steaver]

In this post -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1550735&postcount=33

What I am saying is - that Romans 6 is worth reading (as it turns out) and the text is actually true. .

So your role here is to convince Christians here that the Word of God is true. All true Christians believe the Word of God is true. So why spend time here trying to convince us that the word of God is true? Start a thread on it, I doubt you will find anyone who thinks differently.

I prefer to discuss the scripture itself - you prefer to talk about what some denomination may or may not think as if the scripture being quoted has nothing of importance to say on the subject. Not sure why you choose to avoid the text.

Actually, I like to both discuss the scripture AND discuss how the belief of it would play out in one's real life. It's not that I avoid the text, I post questions pertaining to actual life possibilities so I may rightly understand how one's pov could actually be applied.

I ask you some questions in this manner and rather than post an honest from the heart simple answer you post more scripture. I already heard you on the scripture, now tell me how your pov would be applied to a real life scenario.

I'm not avoiding the text, but you are avoiding applying your points of view to real life.

In this case - the saved saint who then chooses to live in rebellion is a slave to unrighteousness - a slave to sin - so the chapter ends with the warning "the wages of sin is death".

This then answers my question;

"So you are saying your SDA pov of the scriptures has two purposes for the law.

1) for the lost it is to condemn.

2) for the saved it will not condemn if violated, but it is to teach morals.

Is this correct?"

The answer is "no". According to your pov a saint can be condemned by the law just the same as the lost. There is no difference besides the fact that a saint CAN obey and a lost person CANNOT obey.

Yet if instead of merely failing now and then - we choose non-stop rebellion of the form "I CANNOT obey God's Word" - well then we have the warning of Romans 6 and Romans 8 to deal with. They speak of the problem of those who DO not obey God's word and who indeed CANNOT obey His Word.

First you show a lost person CANNOT obey God's word.

You show it takes being "born-again" that a person CAN obey God's word.

And now here in this last quote above you say that a saint CAN have the curse of "I CANNOT obey God's Word".

What you have just proven by your own words is that the "saint" is really no saint at all, but rather the lost spoken of in Romans 8.

You try to make the argument that a lost person CANNOT obey and a saint CAN obey. Then you turn right around and say that a saint could truthfully say "I CANNOT obey".

Do you see your contradiction?

Clearly if we "circle back" to the condition of the lost - then we all happily agree that such a person DOES not obey God's Word and indeed they CANNOT obey God's Word.

Are not you the one who just circled back to the "I CANNOT obey" of Romans 8?

If one CANNOT obey according to Romans 8 then one is not a saint.

You have a saint in rebellion saying "I CANNOT obey" and then you circle the saint back to being one of the lost of Romans 8.

If the person CANNOT obey then that person is no saint to behin with, but you have them a saint who CANNOT obey. One is either a saint or not.

Maybe you would like to reword your example so you don't have a saint saying they CANNOT obey God's word?

How about the saint saying "I CAN obey but I am CHOOSING not to obey"? Maybe this will work for your pov.

Then again, maybe not. For this person is still a saint and the law cannot disannul the promised eternal life through faith.

Gal 3:17And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Your pov has a huge problem here.

 

[Eric B]

Does Benny still call the nine a trinity or does he call them a nonagonity?

I think he reasons that since Father, Son and Spirit are "persons"; then they must have their own soul, body and spirit, which because He is divine, then become in thelmselves three persons each. (I forgot what exactly he has for or in place of the "body" of the Father and Spirit).
It's like a total reversal of the direction of modalism.

 

[BillySunday1935]

Christ has fulfilled the Law in my place. He is my righteousness.

We can never be saved by self righteousness. That is what Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for trying to do.

True - but there is more to it than that...

Matthew 6:14-15
"14 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you.
15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.”

We can't be saved if the Father does not forgive our sins, thus we must forgive [do something] in order to be saved.

Luke 6: 46-49
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts on them.
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
But the one who listens and does not ACT is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

Hmmm... Looks like doing an ACT is a requirement to salvation also.

Matthew 19:16-21
"Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?"
He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
He asked him, "Which ones?" And Jesus replied, “‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;
honor your father and your mother'; and 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"
The young man said to him, "All of these I have observed. What do I still lack?"
Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to (the) poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Wow - here are four more. According to Jesus we must keep the commandments, love our neighbor as ourselves, sell what we have giving it to the poor, and following Christ.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved."
Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required - believe AND be baptized.

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

--- and ---

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone.

John 9:31 "We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.

Fear God AND do his will...

Romans 2:5-7
"5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

We will be judged by our works…

2 Corinthians 5:8-10 (King James Version)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

So, in summation of the above verses from Matthew, Mark, James, Luke, John, Romans, and 2 Corinthians the following are requirements of salvation:

1) forgive others
2) listen and act
3) keep the commandments
4) love your neighbor as yourself
5) sell what you have and give to the poor
6) follow Christ
7) believe (have faith - an assent of the will)
8) do works
9) be Baptised
10) fear God AND do his will
11) persevere in good works
12) repent

There are plenty of others, but this should suffice.

Peace!

 

[BobRyan]

Does my use of the word doctrine throw you off?

Let me fix it for you so you don't think I believe SDA wrote the bible.

So you are saying your SDA pov of the scriptures has two purposes for the law.

1) for the lost it is to condemn.

2) for the saved it will not condemn if violated, but it is to teach morals.

Is this correct?

Now can you give a simple answer that will allow me to understand your views about the law?

What you don't understand is that people don't have time to sift through all of your multiple long winded post. So I ask very simple questions, many times only needing a "yes or no", but it seems very hard for you to give simple answers. Are my questions difficult?

In this post -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...5&postcount=33

What I am saying is - that Romans 6 is worth reading (as it turns out) and the text is actually true. It is speaking to saved saints who have been baptized as we see in vs 1-4.

In Romans 6 - Paul contrasts being a slave to sin and living in violation of God's Word as compared to the saints keeping God's Word.

I prefer to discuss the scripture itself - you prefer to talk about what some denomination may or may not think as if the scripture being quoted has nothing of importance to say on the subject. Not sure why you choose to avoid the text.

Notice that in the example post - the words found there start with


Quote:

Speaking of the role of the Law in the context of the saved saints -

Romans 6
Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Thus in Romans 6 the context is the saved.

So your role here is to convince Christians here that the Word of God is true. All true Christians believe the Word of God is true. So why spend time here trying to convince us that the word of God is true?

With most of the posters on this thread that effort is not necessary - but each time I point you to the text above - you ask for someone to explain it or you question the text in some other fashion.

Consider actually reading the text as a solution.

I highly recommend it.

Actually, I like to both discuss the scripture AND discuss how the belief of it would play out in one's real life.

I am good with that - start by discussing the text and how it does or does not fit your traditions.

So continuing on with that post you are carefully ignoring ---

Then in that post we found this


Quote:
14For sin shall not be master over you[/b], for you are not under law but under grace.
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin[/b], you
became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

In this case - the saved saint who then chooses to live in rebellion is a slave to unrighteousness - a slave to sin - so the chapter ends with the warning "the wages of sin is death".

The Bible does not teach that with each sin - you lose salvation. Far from it - in 1John 2:1 we find that although we are supposed to live just as Romans 6 states - without violating God's Word -- yet IF we do sin then we have an Advocate with the Father and as 1John 1:9 "IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins AND to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness".

Yet if instead of merely failing now and then - we choose non-stop rebellion of the form "I CANNOT obey God's Word" - well then we have the warning of Romans 6 and Romans 8 to deal with. They speak of the problem of those who DO not obey God's word and who indeed CANNOT obey His Word.

Rom 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God

Clearly if we "circle back" to the condition of the lost - then we all happily agree that such a person DOES not obey God's Word and indeed they CANNOT obey God's Word.

What you have just proven by your own words is that the "saint" is really no saint at all, but rather the lost spoken of in Romans 8.

.

On the contrary - we just saw In the Romans 6 text that you are so careful to aviod - that Paul states the prior saved condition of the saints and argues FROM that saved condition - as born-again "not under law but under grace" failing and entering into salvery to sin. The OSAS model completely collapsed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[annsni]

So, in summation of the above verses from Matthew, Mark, James, Luke, John, Romans, and 2 Corinthians the following are requirements of salvation:

1) forgive others
2) listen and act
3) keep the commandments
4) love your neighbor as yourself
5) sell what you have and give to the poor
6) follow Christ
7) believe (have faith - an assent of the will)
8) do works
9) be Baptised
10) fear God AND do his will
11) persevere in good works
12) repent

Man, if I had to stand before God and say "I should get into heaven because I forgave others, obeyed every commandment, loved my neighbor, sell what I had and gave to the poor, did all sorts of works, and was baptized.", I think I'd go to hell.

Instead I'll stick with what God says:

"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31)
"if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9)
"For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

Praise God that it's not MY righteousness that will get me to heaven but HIS!

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 7
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [b]but he who does[/b] the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Romans 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the [b]righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: [/b]

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be [b]tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil[/b], of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.


11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.