Does Kevin Bauder Speak "for" the Fundies or "to" the Fundies

[Rhetorician]

Hello all:

I must admit that I have labeled myself a "recovering fundamentalist" and a "recovering dispenstionalist" at certain times in my life.

I was wondering, and I am sure some or you are too; is the movement "dead," "fractured," "coming apart," with the death and obvious lack of cohesive leadership of the old "hard line" leaders like John R. Rice and Jack Hyles? But then again was there ever a "cohesive leadership?" But that remains a topic for another thread.

With that apparent vacuum of leadership, I have been following Kevin Bauder at a distance. I would ask the question, in light of my above observations and many "young bucks" either leaving the "movement" or becoming "Calvinists," does Bauder speak for the entire bunch? or is he committing heresy by his "open mindedness?" I would like to hear some comments, pro or con, on how he is seen and does his opinion have credence with your group? Here is a place for the dialog to start, which I am sure will turn into an argument in the "Southern sense" before it is done.

http://www.centralseminary.edu/resources/nick-of-time/212-now-about-those-differences-pt-1

Or:

http://www.centralseminary.edu/resources/nick-of-time/214-now-about-those-differences-pt-2

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Tom Bryant]

Although I would characterize myself as a fundamentalist, others probably would not. But I am not sure that anyone "speaks for" fundamentalists. Maybe Dr. Rice did in his time.

I saw the list of men he mentioned originally and thought all of them would be conservatives Biblically but not sure alot of the IFB group would characterize or even if they would characterize themselves, as fundamentalists.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Hello all:


I was wondering, and I am sure some or you are too; is the movement "dead," "fractured," "coming apart," with the death and obvious lack of cohesive leadership of the old "hard line" leaders like John R. Rice and Jack Hyles? But then again was there ever a "cohesive leadership?" But that remains a topic for another thread.

With that apparent vacuum of leadership, I have been following Kevin Bauder at a distance. I would ask the question, in light of my above observations and many "young bucks" either leaving the "movement" or becoming "Calvinists," does Bauder speak for the entire bunch?

Your education is much better than mine or the paper trail is much better.

With that said, you know much better than I, that there hasn't been a person as a single leader of the fundamentalist movement or the IFB movement or the conservative movement in my life time or yours. At the start of the fundamentalist movement many came from different camps and very strong differences in theology to stand together for the Word of God, you know the God Breathed book, the Bible.

My friend with you being a "recovering fundamentalist" and a "recovering dispenstionalist" and I'm still in both camps, you might want to take what I say with a grain of salt. We may differ on many things, but my answer to your suggestion stands. I honor your change and views but I've seen no need to recover or change or have a leader telling me everything I think.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Hello all:

I was wondering, and I am sure some or you are too; is the movement "dead," "fractured," "coming apart," with the death and obvious lack of cohesive leadership of the old "hard line" leaders like John R. Rice and Jack Hyles? But then again was there ever a "cohesive leadership?" But that remains a topic for another thread.

No, I don't think the movement is dead. As Tom Bryant said many folks don't look at the same folks as fundamentalist. John R. Rice was and I'm not sure what Jack Hyles was. But I come out of a little different fundamentalist camp, some I would list many wouldn't.

H.A. Ironside
J. Vernon McGee
Alva J. McClain
Herman A. Hoyt
William R. Newell
John Phillips
Ray C. Stedman
J. Dwight Pentecost
W.A. Criswell
R.G. Lee

Just to give a short list that I look at as fundamentalist, I'm sure a younger person would give a different list and out of what camp one comes out of, might change their picks. So as you can see there isn't a leader, there are many.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Considering the segmentation of Fundamentalism over that last couple of decades, I'd say Dr. Bauder speaks to Fundamentalists and speaks for at least a sizable segment of the movement.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Dr Bauder is a friend of mine and seminary president of a school I attended, but we are seldom on the same page. "To" would be my evaluation of much of his positions. He has a very old-fashioned (man-made) view of legalistic lifestyle, etc, that should NOT be a part of the discussion but is often sucked in.

Fundamentalism as a movement is going the way of the dinosaur. It was a broad-based movement, trans-denominational with an agenda of fighting the enemy of its day - liberalism, modernism and godless evolution. In a post-modern world, the enemy has changed but the rhetoric has not.

This is NOT to say that "fundamentalists" - those holding to the fundamentals and willing to contend for them - are likewise a dying breed. Many still hold to those tenets and fight. Those that hold to them without the pugilistic mindset prefer to be called "evangelicals".

BTW, Central Baptist Theological Seminary would be 4.5 calvinistic (sadly not completely calvinistic) and has been in the 50 years I've been associated with it. We "young bucks" (now older) were calvinistic then and still are today, despising the semi-pelagian heresy. Most of us are still "fundamentalists", but have recognized the abuses of the system and distanced ourselves from "fundamentalism" per se.

 

[John of Japan]

First of all, Dr. Bauder does not speak for me. He's made some serious missteps lately, drawing ire from many in my circles, as well as from me individually for his intemperate and uninformed statements about my grandfather. The ironic thing about this is that Bauder and John R. Rice seem to be on the same page in their opposition to what is commonly called "secondary separation"--but Bauder still saw fit to attack him.

Secondly, I always chuckle when I read or hear of the demise of fundamentalism. It's still going strong. My own mission board is supported by over 6000 churches, meaning that 10,000 churches is a good guess at the current number of independent, fundamental Baptist churches. And there is a very strong impetus towards world-wide church planting in our movement. I just finished writing a young "shirt-tail" relative who will soon head to New England with her husband to help start a church.

I was also recently in a Muslim country where I spoke in their Bible school to young men who are going out to plant IFB churches around their country--one man said he was going to the hill tribes who had no Gospel witness. I visited branch works being started in the villages, and saw a crowd of 800 come to the special meeting on Sunday morning (many from the villages round about), This story could be multiplied--IFB men are planting churches around the globe.

Concerning the narrowing of fundamentalism's constituency, that does appear to have occurred, although there are still non-Baptist groups such as the IFCA and the Bible Presbyterians. However, as one of my mentors said, this is a natural result of the Baptist distinctive of the Bible as the sole rule of faith and practice. Denominationalism is death on fundamentalism. How can you stand for the Word when you are obligated to denominational headquarters?

 

[paidagogos]

Agreement with John of Japan

John has accurately summarized the situation. I agree. Bauder is not the emerging leader of Fundamentalism. He is probably not even representative of his own narrow circle of Fundamentalism because of recent comments. Dr. Bauder may be speaking to the "Fundies" but I don't think that many are listening. His bigger audience are those on the fringes and around the movement, who are not part of self-identified Fundamentalism.

Fundamentalism is not dead or dying contrary to the rumors. It may have changed and have declined in certain circles (e.g. GARBC) but it is flourishing in other places. The movement is particularly strong in missions. Also, having lost some of the high-profile leadership, it may appear that the movement is in decline.

 

[Salty]

...and have declined in certain circles (e.g. GARBC) but it is flourishing in other places. ...

and that is the reason why men such as Dr. L. Duane Brown and others left the GARBC and helped form the Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America.

 

[Rippon]

Considering the segmentation of Fundamentalism over that last couple of decades, I'd say Dr. Bauder speaks to Fundamentalists and speaks for at least a sizable segment of the movement.

Ditto to the above.

 

[Rippon]

Fundamentalism as a movement is going the way of the dinosaur. It was a broad-based movement, trans-denominational with an agenda of fighting the enemy of its day - liberalism, modernism and godless evolution. In a post-modern world, the enemy has changed but the rhetoric has not.

This is NOT to say that "fundamentalists" - those holding to the fundamentals and willing to contend for them - are likewise a dying breed. Many still hold to those tenets and fight. Those that hold to them without the pugilistic mindset prefer to be called "evangelicals".

BTW, Central Baptist Theological Seminary would be 4.5 calvinistic (sadly not completely calvinistic) and has been in the 50 years I've been associated with it. We "young bucks" (now older) were calvinistic then and still are today, despising the semi-pelagian heresy. Most of us are still "fundamentalists", but have recognized the abuses of the system and distanced ourselves from "fundamentalism" per se.

Right on,right on,right on.

 

[Rippon]

I think Kevin Bauder is a good man, who is very perceptive and writes clearly about Fundamentalism and conservative Evangelicalism. His insights should not be ignored. He makes a lot of biblical sense. I wish all his In The Nick of Time(s) were gathered in book form. I'd buy it in a flash.

 

[Jim1999]

Here we see the strangeness of labels such as fundamentalist. In the circles I travelled, my liberal friends called me fundamentalist and my fundamentalist friends called me liberal.

Best to avoid labels. I do appreciate what Dr. Bob was saying about the early days when our fight was against open liberal theology and hence our fundamentalist label was fitting. Not to-day, I fear.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Dr. Bob]

and that is the reason why men such as Dr. L. Duane Brown and others left the GARBC and helped form the Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America.

Does tickle me to see BoJo types of fundamentalists who are strong Baptists!! (Bob Jones is careful to point out all the time that they are NOT Baptist, and certainly not local church)

Not happy with the continual fragmenting of our little group into smaller and smaller "we're the only good ones" fractional, marginal sub-sets. Pretty soon it will be "us-four-and-no-more" I fear . . .

 

[Jerome]

men such as Dr. L. Duane Brown and others left the GARBC and helped form the Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America.

fractional, marginal sub-sets. Pretty soon it will be "us-four-and-no-more"

Oh no, not four, seven!

The aptly named Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America has a grand total of seven supporting churches across the continent:thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

Oh no, not four, seven!

The aptly named Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America has a grand total of seven supporting churches across the continent:thumbs:

You have to start somewhere! And they have an impressive slate of conference speakers for their first conference. I predict this group will grow.

In the meantime, I have given a figure of 6000 or so churches supporting missionaries with my board. Those out there who say fundamentalism is falling apart and shrinking, do you have any figures? Or is that just unsupported opinion?

 

[Jerome]

You have to start somewhere! And they have an impressive slate of conference speakers for their first conference. I predict this group will grow.

Start?
First Conference?
Grow?

Huh?
Their little group has been around for twenty years!

Don't feel bad, very few in "North America" have ever heard of this "Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America" either:laugh:

And speaking of the IBFNA's impressive conference speakers, you may be interested to know that Dr. Bauder spoke at a recent annual meeting of theirs:thumbs:

 

[John of Japan]

Start?
First Conference?
Grow?

Huh?
Their little group has been around for twenty years!

Don't feel bad, very few in "North America" have ever heard of this "Independent Baptist Fellowship of North America" either:laugh:

Really? Well, seeing as how I don't live in the US....

And speaking of the IBFNA's impressive conference speakers, you may be interested to know that Dr. Bauder spoke at a recent annual meeting of theirs:thumbs:

I predict they don't invite him back. :smilewinkgrin: He shouldn't have talked about Bob Jones like he did if he wanted to be accepted by that crowd.

I don't understand what Bauder's trying to do these days. Since he's the head of a seminary, shouldn't he be making friends instead of warding people off? I sincerely doubt that his pontification on fundamentalism and evangelicalism is doing Central any good. Just look at Temple and how they have gone downhill even more as they have gotten cozy with the SBC. (I'm a Temple grad.)

 

[John of Japan]

Just another note in the tone of my previous one. If Dr. Bauder is reading this (I doubt it--no doubt he's a busy man), here's a little friendly advice: concentrate on your day job as a seminary head, and back off on the rhetoric. Your competition has increased in recent years, and Central needs friends, not offended former friends.

Maranatha BBC recently started a seminary, and I have no doubt it is first class, as all that Maranatha does. I know some of the teachers well, and they are first class men with first class doctorates. My son is an alumnus of the college and the grad school--we got our MAs there together. In the mean time, Calvary Baptist in PA is doing better and better, and they also have a first class program that would appeal to many of Central's constituency. Furthermore, fundamentalist Calvinists are pretty likely to go to Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary nowadays.

When I was young I considered Central, and had a soft place in my heart for it because of its history. I even got a catalog preparing for one furlough, and almost went there for a semester. (Ended up back at Temple.) Again, when my son was considering a seminary we went out and saw Central and were graciously received. (Bauder wasn't there yet.) But my son ended up getting his M. Div. at Calvary, and is now at Southeastern finishing his Ph. D. under Dr. David Alan Black. (Currently taking his comps.) He could possibly have been at Central as a prof! (Certainly not now.)

Why would Bauder want to offend someone like me? I would never send anyone to Central nowadays because of Bauder's rhetoric. And I am supported by almost 50 churches and have many other friends in the ministry both on the mission fields of the world and in seminary faculties. It's small, but I do have a little influence.

When Dr. Bauder made his comments about my grandfather I was offended and answered publicly, on the SI thread on his article. (The current SI leadership decided I should not have my full say and ended the thread while it was night in Japan, after the site owner had his own say.) Dr. Bauder did not reply there. Then I wrote him personally. He did not reply. I'm mystified. Am I too small a fish for his attention?? Is the man working to finish off Central??

 

[God's_Servant]

Does tickle me to see BoJo types of fundamentalists who are strong Baptists!! (Bob Jones is careful to point out all the time that they are NOT Baptist, and certainly not local church)

Not happy with the continual fragmenting of our little group into smaller and smaller "we're the only good ones" fractional, marginal sub-sets. Pretty soon it will be "us-four-and-no-more" I fear . . .

It is kinda funny. I heard a message by Bob Jones Sr., and he was saying that we need to work together to reach the world with the gospel.