In the Beginning....

[Darrenss1]

Well I have yet to hear a scripture to support an old earth model. Do you have to use websites? Show me simple passages that support an old earth. BTW, Yes even a child can understand God created it all in 6 days.

The biblical evidence they use comes from various places, they also argue they have yet to hear the biblical support for a 24 hour period. I also heard regarding the Sabbath day of "rest" as clearly not a 24 hour period as God is "still" in His day of rest in Heb 4. Another is the problem of what activity can be done on a day, for example they say the events on day 6 do not seem to fit a 24 hour period. Day 3 the land produced vegetation which would not fit a 24 hour period under the natural process of growth.

The Hebrew phrase puts evening and morning and day as one statement. So what the explanation for evening and morning and day is that during the "set period of time" (yom) had an unnumbered amount of days for which all had both evening and morning.

Anway that's just to show that when you say there is no biblical support you obviously plant your flag and make the assumption that 24 hour periods are the ONLY interpretation, when the old earthers would find that 24 hour periods in Gen 1 to be irrelevant since there is no reason to assume that MUST be the correct interpretation.

Darren

 

[Luke2427]

However, Scripture is clear:

"there was evening and there was morning, the first day"
"there was evening and there was morning, the second day"
"there was evening and there was morning, the third day"
"there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day"
"there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day"
"there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day"
"on the seventh day, God rested"

When there is an ordinal number, it means a literal 24 hour day. We're not speaking about "age" or "a holiday" or something like that but the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh days. BIG difference.

Right. But think of it this way, Sis. On the "DAWN" of Columbus's "DAY" the matter of the shape of the earth was still a matter of great debate.
But as the "SUN SET" on that "DAY" the world, other than a few unreasonable Christians who held to flat earth erroneously thinking that was the Bible teaching on the matter, most understood the earth to be round.

There you find the same type of terminology to describe an age.

there was an age when God created this and an age when he created that. Those ages are marked by evenings and mornings in a figurative sense.

This is the only position that both Scripture and Science allows.

Remember, all truth is God's truth.

 

[Luke2427]

The biblical evidence they use comes from various places, they also argue they have yet to hear the biblical support for a 24 hour period. I also heard regarding the Sabbath day of "rest" as clearly not a 24 hour period as God is "still" in His day of rest in Heb 4. Another is the problem of what activity can be done on a day, for example they say the events on day 6 do not seem to fit a 24 hour period. Day 3 the land produced vegetation which would not fit a 24 hour period under the natural process of growth.

The Hebrew phrase puts evening and morning and day as one statement. So what the explanation for evening and morning and day is that during the "set period of time" (yom) had an unnumbered amount of days for which all had both evening and morning.

Anway that's just to show that when you say there is no biblical support you obviously plant your flag and make the assumption that 24 hour periods are the ONLY interpretation, when the old earthers would find that 24 hour periods in Gen 1 to be irrelevant since there is no reason to assume that MUST be the correct interpretation.

Darren

You are correct. Thank you for you input.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, if he misquotes Mr. Grudem to fit his argument, how faithful are any of the other references?

As for the other two flaws I found, they are these:



This is untrue when you understand Hebrew and the fact that "day" paired with an ordinal number always means a 24 hour day.



ALL creation groans. It's not implausible.

Not to mention that he takes science as full truth (which we know that much of science is changing) and then twisting to make the Bible fit science. That's quite backwards.

You are wrong, Sis. The Hebrew does not demand that it is a 24 hour period as many Hebrew scholars will tell you- one of which is Delitzsch, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars of all time.

And I'd like to know how Gruden was taken out of context. Hugh Ross is a highly respected man. I doubt you've found something so quickly that undermines that.

 

[Luke2427]

The Bible is written to man and man knows what day means. Maybe ask a child too. Was Noah's Ark allegory?

That's utterly ridiculous. you have not considered the implications of this remark.

Any theologian will tell you that the Bible is full of truth that the greatest minds cannot comprehend much less children.

Noah's Ark and the use of the term "day" figuratively is apples and oranges.
In my day we have seen the deterioration of logic. I hope one day we will see it return.

Neither application of "day" in those remarks is a 24 hour period but nearly any child could understand what I meant.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are wrong, Sis. The Hebrew does not demand that it is a 24 hour period as many Hebrew scholars will tell you- one of which is Delitzsch, one of the greatest Hebrew scholars of all time.

And I'd like to know how Gruden was taken out of context. Hugh Ross is a highly respected man. I doubt you've found something so quickly that undermines that.

Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University), who himself does not believe Genesis is true history, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that

So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.16

In like manner, nineteenth century liberal Professor Marcus Dods, New College, Edinburgh, said,

If, for example, the word “day” in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.17


Found Here

 

[Luke2427]

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Gen 1:23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
It is evidient and clear that when God tells us more than once we might aught to pay a lttle more attention.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Folks either the God and the Bible are absolutley correct or it is not. I don't have to believe that Gods word was inspired God word tells me so.

What is the point of this post? No one here denies inspiration. How did this add to the discussion?

 

[Luke2427]

Dr. James Barr (Regius Professor of Hebrew at Oxford University), who himself does not believe Genesis is true history, nonetheless admitted as far as the language of Genesis 1 is concerned that

So far as I know, there is no professor of Hebrew or Old Testament at any world-class university who does not believe that the writer(s) of Gen. 1–11 intended to convey to their readers the ideas that (a) creation took place in a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience (b) the figures contained in the Genesis genealogies provided by simple addition a chronology from the beginning of the world up to later stages in the biblical story (c) Noah’s Flood was understood to be worldwide and extinguish all human and animal life except for those in the ark.16

In like manner, nineteenth century liberal Professor Marcus Dods, New College, Edinburgh, said,

If, for example, the word “day” in these chapters does not mean a period of twenty-four hours, the interpretation of Scripture is hopeless.17


Found Here

Dr. James Bar is very mistaken. I have already provided the name of one of the greatest Hebrew scholars of all time- franz Delitzsch. Dr. Walter Kaiser, one of the translators of the NKJV also believes that the day in Genesis 1 is NOT a 24 hour period.

Follow this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr_tqEEQwcs

 

[Revmitchell]

I have already provided the name of one of the greatest Hebrew scholars of all time- franz Delitzsch.

No you haven't You provided a name and made an unfounded claim. Nothing more. And Dr. Barr has more credibility than your off hand claim.

 

[Luke2427]

No you haven't You provided a name and made an unfounded claim. Nothing more. And Dr. Barr has more credibility than your off hand claim.

You are not interested in the truth. If you were you would google Franz Delitzsch and you would follow the link I provided.

You are interested only in holding blindly to your traditional view point without submitting it to honest scrutiny.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are not interested in the truth. If you were you would google Franz Delitzsch and you would follow the link I provided.

You are interested only in holding blindly to your traditional view point without submitting it to honest scrutiny.

You made an outlandish and unfounded claim about this guy. It therefore has no credibility.

The truth is an old earth is contradictory to the gospel, it is contradictory to creation itself. If you want to deal with those issues get back to me.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Another is the problem of what activity can be done on a day, for example they say the events on day 6 do not seem to fit a 24 hour period. Day 3 the land produced vegetation which would not fit a 24 hour period under the natural process of growth.


Darren

That's why you don't or won't get it. Your trying to make it natural process rather than SUPERnatural. What came first....the chicken or the egg? The chicken!

 

[Jedi Knight]

Any theologian will tell you that the Bible is full of truth that the greatest minds cannot comprehend much less children.

Oh read the Genesis creation and ask a child how many days God created everything. Also see where Jesus said "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

 

[Darrenss1]

That's why you don't or won't get it. Your trying to make it natural process rather than SUPERnatural. What came first....the chicken or the egg? The chicken!

Nothing to do with it. The activities of Adam on day 6 was not supernatural at all it depended on Adam. Their position is that Eve was created on day 6 as well as Adam working in the garden and naming all the animals, that's quite a long day.....

Darren

 

[Jedi Knight]

Nothing to do with it. The activities of Adam on day 6 was not supernatural at all it depended on Adam. Their position is that Eve was created on day 6 as well as Adam working in the garden and naming all the animals, that's quite a long day.....

Darren

I was not referring to day 6.....look at your own post about natural prosses.

 

[Revmitchell]

The activities of Adam on day 6 was not supernatural at all it depended on Adam.

Says who?

Their position is that Eve was created on day 6 as well as Adam working in the garden and naming all the animals, that's quite a long day.....

Darren

What do you think "all" refers to? How many kinds do you know there were at the time?

 

[Luke2427]

You made an outlandish and unfounded claim about this guy. It therefore has no credibility.

The truth is an old earth is contradictory to the gospel, it is contradictory to creation itself. If you want to deal with those issues get back to me.

You are the only one in this whole debate who makes unfounded claims. Valiant put to you a very thoughtful post and you dismissed it haphazardly because you, apparently, don't care about the truth.

This very POST of yours hurls unfounded claims. You claim that the old universe position UNDERMINES THE GOSPEL!!!!!!! WHAT AN AMAZING CLAIM AND YOU GIVE NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER!!

You are the only one guilty of doing the things you accuse others of doing.

 

[Luke2427]

Oh read the Genesis creation and ask a child how many day God created everything. Also see where Jesus said "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."

Whatever...

 

[Darrenss1]

I was not referring to day 6.....look at your own post about natural prosses.

OK but I did mention both day 3 and day 6. So let me just make mention of the issue for your interest.

When God created on the 3rd day the bible states that God gave the botanical creation time to yield and God observed the result and said it was good. So the old earther would say this does support the old earth model because the trees, grass, flowers, seeds..etc had time to grow. This was NOT a supersped miracle but a period of time took place to allow natural growth. The young earther would say it was all fit into a 24 hour period, therefore the text in verse 12 had to refer to a supernatural growth whereby the course of growth was compacted down into that 24 hour period.

Gen 1-
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

If you take the position this is a speeded up accounted then you would be doing that only to the convenience of trying to fit a 24 hour day time period. And again, why it that necessary if you are trying to understand the bible for the information it contains rather than defending a particular position?


Now the sixth day account with Adam and Eve -

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

God had created all the rest on day 6 AND rested, therefore after day 6 God did not complete any more creation projects, therefore Eve was formed on day 6. Therefore the events in ch2 follow that of day 6 NOT after the 7th day.

Chapter 2 -
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;

12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.

13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

And that is the reason that Adam's activities on day 6 cannot logically be a speeded up day, Adam was in time and apart of the natural temporal physis of time. Again, is there really a necessary onus to interpret a day as a 24 hour period given the events of each day? These are not my arguments I am simply relaying the information as I have read it myself. To say the old earth model has no biblical support to me is crazy.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

The truth is an old earth is contradictory to the gospel, it is contradictory to creation itself. If you want to deal with those issues get back to me.

Weasel words.

Darren