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Wine As A Beverage
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
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It is what it is. You believe it is ok to take a mind and mood altering drug as a "adult" but it would not be ok as a "child".
"Can i have a drink too daddy? No son, drugs are for us "adults" who are all growed up and know how to take a mind and mood altering drug 'responsibly'. When you are of legal drug taking age and all growed up then God won't mind you taking some sort of mind altering drug either. But God would not approve of you taking a drug unless you are of the legal age of the state or country that you live in. Ok daddy, but I can't wait until I can grow up and be just like you!"
That in no way reflects my position, and it should be obvious from what I already have said. Paul talks in Romans about the believers of "strong" and "weak" faith, and this is a perfect example. I have no problem that, since your faith is "weak" (not in substance, but in participation), you abstain. I hope you can at some point allow those with "strong" faith, like me, the same respect.
In other words, if you feel led to not drink, don't do it, but don't judge others for doing it, either.
The whole idea behind the text that wine is not for kings and that the king should rule, and not be the slave of the ruled, is that it presupposes the use of wine by kings. To read total abstinance is not only silly; it is contrary the Scriptures which is worse a sin than to be ruled by wine perhaps sometimes.
I don't remember where, but I did once read in the OT a command, that if you lived too far from the temple, you should use the value of your offering to buy wine and get drunk of it!
I would like to hear your comments on that.
Then, maybe off the topic, but if Romans 14 is read while omitting the INTERPOLATION, "some do NOT regard a day", the whole meaning of the passage is switched about, and it gets the meaning, the WEAK eat and drink, and the STRONG are those who do not eat or drink. And this time I am sure about what I'm saying.
This fact naturally has its dire consequences for the false notion only the weak in faith observed days. EVERYBODY according to Romans 14 is supposed to have, and are declared to have observed days.
I don't remember where, but I did once read in the OT a command, that if you lived too far from the temple, you should use the value of your offering to buy wine and get drunk of it!
I would like to hear your comments on that.
Then, maybe off the topic, but if Romans 14 is read while omitting the INTERPOLATION, "some do NOT regard a day", the whole meaning of the passage is switched about, and it gets the meaning, the WEAK eat and drink, and the STRONG are those who do not eat or drink. And this time I am sure about what I'm saying.
This fact naturally has its dire consequences for the false notion only the weak in faith observed days. EVERYBODY according to Romans 14 is supposed to have, and are declared to have observed days.
Yes.
1. It is against the law and I could be prosecuted if I did.
2. Children react to alcohol differently than adults.
3. Like the other things I listed in my previous post on this thread, drinking alcohol requires a modicum of judgment that would be lacking in a 10 year old.
THe problem with your position using Romans 14 is that it is not speaking of that which is sin. If that were the case then you could just as easily say that if you have strong faith and want to sleep with another woman then go ahead, but don't judge those who of weak faith that choose not to sin.
Taking mind and mood altering drugs simply for pleasures sake and not as necessary medicine is a sin. As one can see, a "do as I say and not as I do" teaching approach is not found in the scriptures. It is of the devil and it is why children grow up developementally confused as to just what is right and wrong according to God.
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I think you should read how silly your statement actually sounds.
Find the passage and put it forth.
1. I am not sure it is against the law to give your child a cup of beer in your own house, But you can research that and bring it forth since you believe it is fact. Also, you will find that in some countries it is not against their laws at all for they have no law governing the private consumption of alcohol.
2. You'll have to give an example of the difference and as to why one reaction would be bad and the other good.
3. No judgment is necessary for the parent would be the one in charge of how much the child recieved. According to your postion a parent should have no problem sitting down and having a glass of beer with their child as long as the amount is in proportion with the wieght of the child. The point is not how much but rather should the example of "do as I say and not as I do" be taught by Christians. If their is nothing wrong with taking mood drugs then by all means give the child a drink and stop being a Pharisee.
I am noticing that it sure is tough trying to defend drug consumption for pleasures sake. Why do Christians even try? I guess the love of beer is stronger than the love of righteousness.
adisciplinedlearner
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Christ and His apostles drank wine as a beverage. This means there is nothing wrong with doing so as long as one does not get drunk. Drunkenness is a sin. (BTW, I do not drink alcoholic beverages, because I do not like the taste of them.)
Matthew 15
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
But as we see, there are adult activities that children are not allowed to do in life. We've shown you that but apparently using your logic for anything else is "off topic".
Remember that there is a cultural setting too. In the United States, children are not allowed to drink. Yes, you can serve alcohol to your own children in your own home but generally, it is illegal (and in some counties it's illegal to serve children in your own home) for children to drink alcohol. However, in other cultures, alcohol use in the family is the norm and even young children will have a glass of wine with dinner. I do not see that as wrong.
A man who was a deacon in one of the churches I once belonged to when I was still living in PA (back about 38 years ago) was born and raised in Denmark. He was a businessman who often flew to and from Europe.
When he was in Europe, he'd often fellowship with some of his Christian friends. This fellowship would invariably include a meal that would have included wine. As annsni mentioned, this was a normal thing, and he thought nothing of drinking wine with his Christian friends.
When he was in PA, he did not drink wine because he knew that it'd be a stumbling block to his Christian friends in that area.
I'm sure that some would criticize this man for being inconsistent. Having lived in Europe for two years, I was not one of his critics.
Again, "do as I say..." does not reflect my position. You can believe what you want, but you will have to do some serious textual gymnastics to come to the idea that drinking alcohol is sinful. Children, actually, can understand quite well that there are things they must wait for and how, since their parents, older siblings, whoever also waited until the appropriate time, it is fair and consistent. They don't always like it, but they will understand it.
By saying drinking is sin, you are judging the vast majority of Christians throughout history who have believed it to be an issue of conscience and Christian freedom.
Unbelievable. It is just completely unbelievable that you would make a statement like this questioning the sincerity of other believers. I am a child of God, seek to please God and believe the Bible is authoritative in my life, but because I don't have any problem with drinking alcoholic beverages, I'm being inconsistent and less than honest in my desire for righteousness (which doesn't come from me, but from Christ, anyway.)
I think you have more holes than a spaghetti strainer, but I respect your sincerity. I hope you pray about this issue and that your heart is softened and that you find some other outlet for your zeal and earnestness.
Ok, first you use "logic" to condemn giving children alcohol because they are too young and must wait like with driving a car and then....
So let's just stick with the giving of children mind and mood altering drugs for pleasure topic and leave silly things like driving a car at age ten out of this.
Now you say you don't see anything wrong with children drinking this drug. So is that to say that you would have no problem giving your own child some beer here and there?
You like soft drinks? My guess is you're a Coke drinker, maybe Diet Coke.
Well, caffeine is mind-altering.
The scriptures are clear and the Holy Spirit confirms. It should not even take a commandment from God for a person to understand the evil of alcohol. Even the lost know this much.
How do you feel about smoking a little marijuana? It's about the same as alcohol so I would presume you have no problem with this drug being consumed for pleasure either. I guess even a needle with a bit of heroin in it wouldn't matter either. Everything in moderation you know. The scriptures don't say anything about smoking marijuana so I guess by using your standard it would be ok with God too.
Are you certain about that? Post some info for me about caffeine. Personally I avoid caffeine as much as possible but that is because it makes my body tired after the intial energy rush it gives. I would rather just stay even steven-slow and steady :thumbs:
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