Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[ReformedBaptist]

ReformedBaptist & Tom Bryant to complain about the nature of the thread is like aiming a pistol at your foot, pulling the trigger, and then complaining about your foot being shot. You had to make the effort to come into the thread of your own free will so if you don't want to see such a thread the answer is simple...duh.

I thing the complaints are based on not liking the position taken not the fact that the thread is here. How many futurist positions have gone in and left such messages on.

You may fancy any motivation you like. But to make the observation that since aster "converted" himself to preterism it seems to be his whole focus and aim to convert others, is justified.

But I have made my point of this, now twice, and it seems I am not the only one who makes this observation.

My exhortation to you men is to return to your singular devotion of Christ Jesus and Him crucified.

 

[Winman]

For a person - not just you, Hank - but for anyone to answer my 2 Thess 1 with a verse elsewhere, or with saying they have a problem with preterism just confirms they have no answer.

What kind of statement is that? You are assuming you are correct and anyone who disagrees with you must be wrong. There is no open-mindedness here.

If a new convert came to me with a question about verse 6, I would explain that you cannot pull this single verse out of context and consider it alone, it must be understood within the complete context of the passage.

 

[HankD]

Thank you, Hank, for your detailed and gracious answer.

Let me try it this way: Forget that I am Preterist for right now. Imagine I was a young convert and just came across that passage in 2 Thess. 1. And I come to you, HankD, with these same questions. How would you answer me?

Would you even answer? As a young convert - you know how they can be, very persistent and focused - I would want an answer to this very passage. It has to mean something. You wouldn't send me to a commentary. I hope. That is a later skill/resort of more "advanced" Christians who have settled into a system.

What did the Bereans do? I suppose that when they were challenged on a topic by Paul they looked up that very passage. If Paul, as he often did, made copious use of the Old Testament prophets they checked out those prophets. They were noble in this respect.

I am asking for all of us here to likewise be noble. Examine this very passage - not shifting the attention elsewhere - until this has been dealt with.

For a person - not just you, Hank - but for anyone to answer my 2 Thess 1 with a verse elsewhere, or with saying they have a problem with preterism just confirms they have no answer.

And that in itself is an answer.

OK I gave you my response before you posted yours.

While we might have a difficulty with this passge and others as I said, all positions have difficulties.

I guess it distills down to which difficulty (or difficulties) one can live with?

You know if I ever left my present view as futurist disensationalist (well not quite but close) it would probably be as a partial preterist.

Then I would answer that the Sack of Jerusalem was phase 1 of His coming "appearing" with phase two his visible return coming "parousia" as some time later (going on 2000 years now).

Or something like that (maybe I got them reversed).

HankD

 

[HankD]

Hank with all due respect Acts 1:11 doesn't even address Christ coming back. The two angels are verifying that Christ came into heaven when he left the sight of the Apostles--since verse 9 says he left their sight--how else are they suppose to know where he went without that help. What magic is being used to know that answer?

You can only turn verse 11 into a verse on Christ return if you ignore the verses around it and take it out of context.

Hi Logos1,

OK I'll include much of the context:

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

Notice that I underline "this same Jesus" in this quote and the previous one.

It is my conviction that "this same Jesus" means just that, not another person such as Titus in an allegorical answer.

Also notice that they were on the Mount of Olives.

I believe Zechariah adresses His return in the following prophetic passage:

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

There was no such deliverance in AD70.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

In Matthew 22, Jesus tells the parable of the wedding. He invited and called those he bid to the wedding and they would not come. He sent yet more servants to call them, and they made excuse. So what did the King do?

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Notice that the king nor his son destroyed and burned the city, no, the king sent forth his armies to destroy it. It says nothing about the son leading this army. Notice it is very specific to show this a local event.

I believe this is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.. I agree it was a judgment agaist the Jews for rejecting Christ. But it is not the second coming, that is still future. The second coming is a complete worldwide event like Noah's flood was, not a local event.

You cannot read Matthew 24 and not see this is speaking of a global worldwide event.

Matt 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Matt 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matt 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I don't know how anybody can read Matthew 24 and not see that it is speaking of a worldwide event, not a local event.

 

[swaimj]

It is because your (at least in this point in time) deficiencies are too exasperating for me to deal with.

So, let me get this straight, Tom. Jesus has already come, yet you are experiencing exasperation. I'm surprised that God's people will experience such a thing when the perfect kingdom comes. And also, Jesus has come and yet his saints are still arguing theology. I thought when Jesus came we would be delivered from these earthly bodies and we would "know as we are known", that is, perfectly. Frankly, if you were right in your view, I find Christ's kingdom to be so dissapointing that I would cease being a Christian and I cannot imagine that a non-Christian, upon hearing your view would ever be converted to Christ.

 

[thegospelgeek]

What I noticed was that this whole passage was a promise from Paul to the Thessalonians. It was a promise specifically to the Thessalonians that they would get relief from their trouble (persecution).

Not just to the Thessalonians

When would they get this relief? When the Lord comes.

Ding! Ding! Correct

His coming was to do two things:
1. Give relief to the Thessalonians from their persecutors.
2. Mete out retribution - payback - to those who were doing the persecution.

Correct again!

Now, who were the persecutors? None other than the Jews. This is clearly seen from a reading of Acts.

Partial credit. Yes the Jews were persecuting, however you limit the promise to only those in Thessolinca, I extend it to all believers. By my account, this would be all that stand against Christ.

When did the relief come? Well, it had to come in the lifetime of the ones Paul was writing to! These Thessalonians are long dead.

Do they not have eternal life?

Hmm. What event can we think of that all of a sudden took away all those Jews, stopping them from persecuting the Thessalonian Christians? That would have to be when the Roman army came down and crushed the Jewish rebellion. The city of Jerusalem was gorged with 2 - 3 million Jews, many of these from all parts of the empire, coming down to celebrate the Feast. After the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 the Jews were never able to again persecute Christians - anywhere. *

Jews can not persecurte Christians today? Didn't know that.

This was the relief that Paul had promised the Thessalonian Christians. How strange that we should think this refers to a future coming?!

Not strange at all.

To teach this would be to take away the relevance of Paul's promise to the Thessalonians. He had promised them relief.

Not at all

In fact you take away the promise by appying it in such a way. We are promised many things. Two of which are persecution in this life and relief when Christ returns. You may disagree with what I say, and that is fine. But to say that a futurist can not defend there beliefs without resorting to "tricks" and misinformation is incorrect. I prefer to read and learn, but couldn't resit the bait you set. If you have questions about what I beleive I will answer, but don't expect a long debate with me, just don't have time for it right now.

 

[asterisktom]

So, let me get this straight, Tom. Jesus has already come, yet you are experiencing exasperation. I'm surprised that God's people will experience such a thing when the perfect kingdom comes. And also, Jesus has come and yet his saints are still arguing theology. I thought when Jesus came we would be delivered from these earthly bodies and we would "know as we are known", that is, perfectly. Frankly, if you were right in your view, I find Christ's kingdom to be so dissapointing that I would cease being a Christian and I cannot imagine that a non-Christian, upon hearing your view would ever be converted to Christ.

Disappointed? Well, that may be - if the wrong thing was thought about God and His Kingdom. Yes, the rich young ruler went away disappointed. So did Judas. Your point? We need to always find the truth of God's Word and present that. And we sharpen each other in doing this by presenting verses to each other for discussion and give-and-take. Honestly, when presented with the Preterist system, I was all set to prove it wrong. I vigorously examined the problem scriptures. I kicked the tires, so to speak, of this new belief. My whole purpose in bring up these verses in Thess. is to let others point out to me what I am missing. And there has been no response on that.

In order for you to "get straight" about me and my Preterism, swaimj, you need to first deal with the verses that brought me to this conclusion. Then - and only then - would you understand what Preterism is and isn't saying.

Your pointing out the assumed fallacy in my system is pointless because I can see that you have a very unclear view of what Preterism teaches.

And, of course, I assume you also have no answer to my Thessalonian question, or elsewhere you would have mentioned it. Instead, like the rest, you just reach into your bag of obfuscation - in your case attacking a system you know very little about.

 

[asterisktom]

Not just to the Thessalonians

Thank you for at least taking a stab at the passage in question. You are the first. Since you are busy I will just focus on one part of your answer (above). You said that Paul was writing - at least partially - to the Thessalonians. Assuming that is true, then they can expect some relief from their persecution. Here is the question:

What relief did they get?

 

[thegospelgeek]

Thank you for at least taking a stab at the passage in question. You are the first. Since you are busy I will just focus on one part of your answer (above). You said that Paul was writing - at least partially - to the Thessalonians. Assuming that is true, then they can expect some relief from their persecution. Here is the question:

What relief did they get?

The same you and I will get. We face persecution in this life, Jesus promised that. We are promised relief in the next. This relief that is promised far exceeds anything would would get in this world. Think spiritual, not just physical.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

The attitude of preterists is enough for me to reject the doctrine. :type:

 

[Revmitchell]

The attitude of preterists is enough for me to reject the doctrine. :type:

When you are standing on weak ground then a little attitude is needed to make the case.

 

[asterisktom]

While we might have a difficulty with this passge and others as I said, all positions have difficulties.

I guess it distills down to which difficulty (or difficulties) one can live with?

Not being nit-picky, but I no longer believe this. I used to say that all positions have difficulties, but I can't say that about Preterism. The difficulties arose from false assumptions I had, incorrect presuppositions.

Do we all really believe that all - absolutely all - positions have difficulties? What about the position of the Apostle Paul as he taught the Thessalonians and other churches? What about Christ as He taught in the Olivet Discourse?

You might roll your eyes and say this is obviously different.

But if their position is flawless then there exists a flawless position.
Then it is possible to know that flawless position.
Then it is reasonable that there are Christians on this Earth who already have that flawless position seeing that Spirit of Truth guides us.
But we guarantee that we will never arrive at that position as long we truly believe that "All positions have difficulties."

 

[thegospelgeek]

Not being nit-picky, but I no longer believe this. I used to say that all positions have difficulties, but I can't say that about Preterism. The difficulties arose from false assumptions I had, incorrect presuppositions.

Do we all really believe that all - absolutely all - positions have difficulties? What about the position of the Apostle Paul as he taught the Thessalonians and other churches? What about Christ as He taught in the Olivet Discourse?

You might roll your eyes and say this is obviously different.

But if their position is flawless then there exists a flawless position.
Then it is possible to know that flawless position.
Then it is reasonable that there are Christians on this Earth who already have that flawless position seeing that Spirit of Truth guides us.
But we guarantee that we will never arrive at that position as long we truly believe that "All positions have difficulties."

I can agree with you on this part.

 

[asterisktom]

The same you and I will get. We face persecution in this life, Jesus promised that. We are promised relief in the next. This relief that is promised far exceeds anything would would get in this world. Think spiritual, not just physical.

I am thinking spiritual. But I am also thinking logically too. The Thessalonians are long dead. The only relief they got was death. That is cold comfort.

Have you really thought about what the word "relief" means? It means to alleviate present pain or suffering by a certain means. IOW, the suffering of the Thessalonians, according to the text, will be relieved by Christ's coming. They will be suffering right up to His coming. But that is impossible. Between the end of their suffering and His coming - according to your view - is nigh onto 2000 years.

I am thinking spiritually. That is why I took the inspired Apostle at his word. Oh well.

 

[Winman]

But if their position is flawless then there exists a flawless position.

This is true, but you have not presented a flawless position, there are many flaws in it that have repeatedly been pointed out to you.

 

[asterisktom]

When you are standing on weak ground then a little attitude is needed to make the case.

If one of you kind gentlemen can tell me what my attitude is - beyond my mere Preteristness - I would be much obliged. I know that I cross the lines sometimes in my writing and am quite willing to own up to any faults along those lines.

Thanks.

 

[asterisktom]

I can agree with you on this part.

And BTW I wasn't trying to focus on you. I was just speaking generally, even of a way I used to think, as well.

I believe the same way about Pan-millennialism and "It will all pan out in the end". I no longer say that either, for the same reason.

Take care.

 

[thegospelgeek]

I am thinking spiritual. But I am also thinking logically too. The Thessalonians are long dead. The only relief they got was death. That is cold comfort.

Have you really thought about what the word "relief" means? It means to alleviate present pain or suffering by a certain means. IOW, the suffering of the Thessalonians, according to the text, will be relieved by Christ's coming. They will be suffering right up to His coming. But that is impossible. Between the end of their suffering and His coming - according to your view - is nigh onto 2000 years.

I am thinking spiritually. That is why I took the inspired Apostle at his word. Oh well, this is useless.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I see the scipture as plainly teaching one form of releif, you see it as another.

 

[asterisktom]

You may fancy any motivation you like. But to make the observation that since aster "converted" himself to preterism it seems to be his whole focus and aim to convert others, is justified.

But I have made my point of this, now twice, and it seems I am not the only one who makes this observation.

My exhortation to you men is to return to your singular devotion of Christ Jesus and Him crucified.

It is not merely Preterism. It is Gospel-strength Kingdom Now Christianity. You are welcome to return to your devotion to Christ and Him crucified - I can show you a lot of RC churches in Mexico and El Salvador that do just that. Netter is to have a fuller view of Christ glorified, King of King, Lord of Lords, building His kingdom, the Heavenly Jerusalem.