Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[Logos1]

Logos the Spiritualizer,
You are wrong:

The Greek in Matt.23:36 IS genea (#1074)!
In fact, all three references you give are #1074!!
A blatant example of twisting the truth to support falsehood!!!

Jesus has in mind ALL generations of Israel to the "End of Gentile times"!
These generations will continue until the "Gentiles times are fulfilled"!!
They "see all these things happening" on the Day Christ appears!!!

Christ "comes in the flesh" at the End of Gentile times to destroy enemies!
Messiah comes in glory to "deliver Israel and Judah from total destruction"!!
"Israel and Judah, delivered, will know the Lord...from least to the greatest"!!!
Mel

LOL, Thanks Lastday for helpding to prove my point! The reference to Matt 23:36 is indeed 1074 which was a mix up on my part. The reference I meant to put in there was Acts 17:28 which is #1085.

Matt 23:36 is a clear reference to fulfillment in 70AD. We're gonna make a Preterist out of you yet!

Trying to change generation into something like the Jewish race going from genea to genos doesn't extend the time to fullfillment of all "these things" as futurists would like to believe.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks ever so much Mel!

 

[HankD]

LOL, Thanks Lastday for helpding to prove my point! The reference to Matt 23:36 is indeed 1074 which was a mix up on my part. The reference I meant to put in there was Acts 17:28 which is #1085.

Matt 23:36 is a clear reference to fulfillment in 70AD. We're gonna make a Preterist out of you yet!

Trying to change generation into something like the Jewish race going from genea to genos doesn't extend the time to fullfillment of all "these things" as futurists would like to believe.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks ever so much Mel!

Matthew 23

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

I don't think the citizens of Jerusalem were saying this when Titus came and slaughtered them.

HankD

 

[lastday]

Hank,

Thanks for helping me unveil the Gnosticism of men who deny the Doctrine of Christ! They alone are directly expressing the "spirit of antichrist"...the Gnostic Preterists!!
We must continue to expose the heresy that denies "Christ remains in the Flesh"!!!

I noticed this is the 2nd time Logos has admitted overlooking the truth of Scripture!
Now he refers to the "generation of Gentiles" as those who see "all these things"!!
Acts 17:28 refers to the "offspring (generation; genos) of Gentiles"...not Jews!!!

This generation refers to the "houses of Ephraim and Judah being reunited as ONE"!
This will occur on the DAY and at the HOUR their Messiah appears in the Flesh!!
The denial of this basic Doctrine of Christ is the very spirit of Antichrist!!!
Mel

 

[Winman]

Matthew 23

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

I don't think the citizens of Jerusalem were saying this when Titus came and slaughtered them.

HankD

Yes, the Jews did not say Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord in 70 A.D.

Preterists ignore that there are many scriptures that show Jesus is returning to save the Jews, not destroy them.

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.

Jeremiah 30 is speaking of the Great Tribulation. Even a preterist will agree that the "time of Jacob's trouble" is the Great Tribulation.

But notice that God promised to save the Jews out of it in verse 7. This did not happen in 70 A.D., just the opposite.

In verse 9 God promises to raise up their king, this did not happen in 70 A.D.

And notice in verse 10 that God promises to save Israel and Israel shall return and be in rest, and none shall make him afraid. This never happened in 70 A.D. and has yet to occur. The Jews have been brought from all nations back to their land, but they have yet to live in peace and security. This is future.

The Preterist cannot distinguish between those scriptures that told of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and many other scriptures that shows Israel will be restored to their land and saved by the Lord in the last days.

 

[HankD]

Hank,

Thanks for helping me unveil the Gnosticism of men who deny the Doctrine of Christ! They alone are directly expressing the "spirit of antichrist"...the Gnostic Preterists!!
We must continue to expose the heresy that denies "Christ remains in the Flesh"!!!

I noticed this is the 2nd time Logos has admitted overlooking the truth of Scripture!
Now he refers to the "generation of Gentiles" as those who see "all these things"!!
Acts 17:28 refers to the "offspring (generation; genos) of Gentiles"...not Jews!!!

This generation refers to the "houses of Ephraim and Judah being reunited as ONE"!
This will occur on the DAY and at the HOUR their Messiah appears in the Flesh!!
The denial of this basic Doctrine of Christ is the very spirit of Antichrist!!!
Mel

Hi lastday,

Thanks.

However, I believe most, if not all preterists here at the BB believe in the Incarnation of the Logos, the Second person of the Trinity and this is that which John is referring. Therefore they would not be gnostics.

Perhaps Tom or Logos1 could confirm that?

The gnostics of John's day denied that Jesus had come in "sarx", i.e. mortal flesh subject to death, born of a woman.
They felt that He was some sort of material manifestation, a kind of emanation of the divine persona but not "sarx".

Therefore, I really don't believe that preterism is anti-christ but just an improper view of eschatology and not an error in Christology.


HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Hank,
I'm so glad you brought up what puts Preterists at a point of no return...:

However, I believe most, if not all preterists here at the BB believe in the Incarnation of the Logos, the Second person of the Trinity and this is that which John is referring. Therefore they would not be gnostics.

The gnostics of John's day denied that Jesus had come in "sarx", i.e. mortal flesh subject to death, born of a woman. They felt that He was some sort of material manifestation, a kind of emanation of the divine persona but not "sarx".

Preterists agree with us that Christ "HAD COME (Past Tense) in the flesh"!
Describing Gnostics, John identifies them denying He "continues in the flesh"!!
The re-introduction of Gnosticism is worse by denying He is "coming in the flesh"!!!
Mel

 

[asterisktom]

Hi lastday,

Thanks.

However, I believe most, if not all preterists here at the BB believe in the Incarnation of the Logos, the Second person of the Trinity and this is that which John is referring. Therefore they would not be gnostics.

Perhaps Tom or Logos1 could confirm that?

Yes, thanks, Hank, I do confirm that. I have been going over this very point in the other thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=67483&page=5

Lastday knows all this. He is just being stubborn.

 

[HankD]

Hank,
I'm so glad you brought up what puts Preterists at a point of no return...:


Preterists agree with us that Christ "HAD COME (Past Tense) in the flesh"!
Describing Gnostics, John identifies them denying He "continues in the flesh"!!
The re-introduction of Gnosticism is worse by denying He is "coming in the flesh"!!!
Mel

Hmm, I disagree that they are denying what John the Apostle is affirming, the humanity of Christ.

Presumably, Trinitarian preterists hold to the continuing humanity (as well as the deity) of Jesus Christ.

In these post-resurrection passages Paul addresses Jesus Christ as a man (anthropos) showing that He continues in His humanity.

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

Just because they deny that He literally and visibly manifested Himself in the manner in which futurist define that literalness and visibility of His Second Coming (and preterists do affirm that coming - in AD70) is not a denial of his continuing humanity.

I am still interested to know however from preterists, since they say all as been fullfiled (new heaven and new earth), what is the nature of the end of the material universe and where can it be found (if at all) in the Scripture?

Is the material universe eternal and will sin and death be a reality for ever or will perhaps the material universe eventually die the death of entropy or something else?


HankD

 

[Paul33]

Thank you for at least taking a stab at the passage in question. You are the first. Since you are busy I will just focus on one part of your answer (above). You said that Paul was writing - at least partially - to the Thessalonians. Assuming that is true, then they can expect some relief from their persecution. Here is the question:

What relief did they get?

In verse 6, God will do two things: he will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and he will give relief to you who are troubled.

The answer as to what this "pay back" looks like and this "relief" looks like is found in verses 9 and 10.

Pay back = being punished with everlasting destruction and being shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power.

Relief = Jesus coming to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you have believed our testimony to you.

Both the "pay back" and the "relief" occur at the same time - on that day!

What the Thessalonian church received from Paul was a promise that God is just - those who persecute the church will be shut out from the presence of God. They will be punished with everlasting destruction. Those who believe will be included in the holy ones when Jesus comes to be glorified in his holy people.

The emotional and spiritual impact of this promise forms the foundation for Paul urging them to continue to stand firm - an eternal encouragement and good hope, encouraging and strengthening them and us in every good deed and word (2:16-17).

The question you posed is rather easy to answer from the context of the passage. There is more to life than your present sufferings. God is just. He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you. He will grant relief to those who are persecuted. When? When Jesus Christ is revealed from heaven . . . on that day! Paul is giving them an eternal perspective for a temporal problem!!! Since there is more to life than our present sufferings, stand firm (2:15).

 

[kyredneck]

.....preterists, since they say all as been fullfiled (new heaven and new earth).;....

Just curious how the literalist explains this seeming discrepancy:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished. Mt 5:18

....ye also were made dead to the law........we have been discharged from the law..... Ro 7:4,6

....the old covenant......is done away..... 2 Cor 3:14

....having abolished ......the law of commandments contained in ordinances....... Eph 2:15

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say, and preterists and amills also, herein lies the answer:

whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more will I make to tremble not the earth only, but also the heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:26,26

 

[lastday]

HankD,
You write:

Hmm, I disagree that they are denying what John the Apostle is affirming,
the humanity of Christ. Presumably, Trinitarian preterists hold to the
continuing humanity (as well as the deity) of Jesus Christ.

Preterists maintain that Christ "continues in both human and divine natures".
But they clearly deny that He is "coming in flesh and bones" after His resurrection.
They also identify the "first resurrection" of Believers as a spiritual "new birth" alone.

If this denial of historic Christian Doctrine is not heresy, I don't know what qualifies.
Paul made acceptance of the Physical Resurrection the bed-rock foundation of truth.
We do injustice to that foundational stance by condoning the teachings of Preterism.
Mel

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So, let me get this straight just so I get a complete understanding of the picture you are presenting...

You say Christ returned in 70 AD.

You tell us not to go to other Scripture, but to concentrate on the passage you presented in the OP.

But, Scripture tells us to do just the opposite than what you require of us. Scripture tell us to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

Scripture must interpret Scripture. And if there is contradiction, there is a major problem... which we see if we build our doctrine and faith using the passage in the OP as the foundation of our faith and say that this particular event Paul wrote about happened in 70 A.D.

Now, Scripture tells us that when Christ returns, He will set up His Millennial Kingdom in Jerusalem and reign there for 1,000 years.

As has been pointed out, there is no indication in the Word of God that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Not one Apostle recorded such an event.

We also have the problem that, supposing your theory is true and He did return in 70 A.D., how do we reconcile the fact that satan's forces were persecuting and killing Christians throughout the remainder of the 1st Century A.D. and ongoing through the 1700's.

Yet Scripture tells us that during the Millennial Kingdom Reign of our Lord, there will be 1,000 years of peace.

So, how do you reconcile the claim that Christ returned in 70 A.D. with the facts that there was no peace for nearly 1800 years, but rather persecutions and murders of Christians?

Was Christ reigning in His Millennial Kingdom but turning a blind eye to the warring and acting like they never happened?

Preterism is revealed to be a false doctrine when one allows the Word of God to illuminate one's heart and mind.

 

[asterisktom]

So, let me get this straight just so I get a complete understanding of the picture you are presenting...

You say Christ returned in 70 AD.

You tell us not to go to other Scripture, but to concentrate on the passage you presented in the OP.

Who are you writing to, Steadfast Fred? I wrote that OP but I never said to not go elsewhere in Scripture, or not to rightly divide the Word.

If you want to be taken seriously, state the opposing side fairly.

 

[Paul33]

Tom,

I posted a response to your question.

I demonstrated from the text what "pay back" and "relief" were to be expected and when it would happen.

I stated that the relief the Thessalonians received was the knowledge that they were part of the holy people and because God is just, the encouragement to stand firm.

I await your response.

 

[asterisktom]

As has been pointed out, there is no indication in the Word of God that Christ came back in 70 A.D. Not one Apostle recorded such an event.

This is nonsensical from a Preterist's point of view, because all of Scripture was already written before 70 AD. So when the event happened there was no longer inspired testimony given - or needed.

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,

I posted a response to your question.

I demonstrated from the text what "pay back" and "relief" were to be expected and when it would happen.

I stated that the relief the Thessalonians received was the knowledge that they were part of the holy people and because God is just, the encouragement to stand firm.

I await your response.

Paul, I saw your response. Thank you. Give me a little more time, OK? Either tonight or tomorrow I will get to it.

I appreciate your writing.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Who are you writing to, Steadfast Fred? I wrote that OP but I never said to not go elsewhere in Scripture, or not to rightly divide the Word.

If you want to be taken seriously, state the opposing side fairly.

Actually, in post #7, you did say to stick to the questions regarding the verses in the OP before going to other texts. So I was stating the other side fairly.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

This is nonsensical from a Preterist's point of view, because all of Scripture was already written before 70 AD. So when the event happened there was no longer inspired testimony given - or needed.

All of Scripture was written before 70 A.D.? Really?

So, tell me, how did John write Revelation before 70 A.D. when he was not exiled to the Isle of Patmos before 90 A.D.?

Whether you want to believe it or not, Revelation is a part of Scripture. It is that which was given to John to write down for future generations to gain insight from.

John's first epistle was written nearly 20 years after 70 A.D. also.

 

[asterisktom]

Actually, in post #7, you did say to stick to the questions regarding the verses in the OP before going to other texts. So I was stating the other side fairly.

No, Fred, you weren't. Did you read it all? I gave five questions from the passage, asking the other person to first answer those questions. I said, "Answer these questions before you bring up another text. Otherwise we will just be hopscotching through the whole Bible, never dealing seriously with anything."

 

[asterisktom]

All of Scripture was written before 70 A.D.? Really?

So, tell me, how did John write Revelation before 70 A.D. when he was not exiled to the Isle of Patmos before 90 A.D.?

Whether you want to believe it or not, Revelation is a part of Scripture. It is that which was given to John to write down for future generations to gain insight from.

You have no idea what Preterists believe, or else you wouldn't be writing what you write. Get informed first then come back with your questions.

Sheesh...:BangHead: