To keep looking for that future literal kingdom - with all the trappings assumed from Ezekiel - is to continue missing out on the present, very real but very invisible kingdom that is right here now.
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Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1
- Thread starter asterisktom
- Start date
To keep looking for that future literal kingdom - with all the trappings assumed from Ezekiel - is to continue missing out on the present, very real but very invisible kingdom that is right here now.
Lastday
Tom Riggle writes:
He fulfills Ezek.38-39 before King David can literally fulfill Exek.40-48!
We must first expect TWO Periods of Temporary Middle East Peace:
The Peace of Ezek.38-39 will be interrupted by nations invading Israel.
The God of Israel will almost totally "destroy" them by His own action!!
The End of Days' Peace may be broken during Passover Week in 2030.
It permits God's Kingdom Power to be manifested for just 1260 days!!!
God's timing is so exact. He has set Christ's coming on a specific Day!
Messianic Jews cannot know if He is coming on a Saturday or Sunday!!
They will know He is coming during their "8-Day Feast of Tabernacles"!!!
Mel
Tom Riggle writes:
Expect God to keep His Covenant with David when Messiah Appears.
He fulfills Ezek.38-39 before King David can literally fulfill Exek.40-48!
We must first expect TWO Periods of Temporary Middle East Peace:
The Peace of Ezek.38-39 will be interrupted by nations invading Israel.
The God of Israel will almost totally "destroy" them by His own action!!
The End of Days' Peace may be broken during Passover Week in 2030.
It permits God's Kingdom Power to be manifested for just 1260 days!!!
God's timing is so exact. He has set Christ's coming on a specific Day!
Messianic Jews cannot know if He is coming on a Saturday or Sunday!!
They will know He is coming during their "8-Day Feast of Tabernacles"!!!
Mel
Poor David gets the short end of the stick. We have our sins forgiven but he has to do all those sacrifices for the sin of his people and his own sin, Eze. 45:22. And he dies, too! Ezek. 46:16
That is a pretty low-rent heaven you got there, Mel.
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Hey asterisktom,
Dude, I want you to know that I have had disagreement with lastday, too. The man was gracious enough toward me - that in spite of that - he still paid me a compliment. It was right to respond - wasn't it? I have paid you compliments - and still disagree VERY strongly with you in Preterism. This would be the very act of civility that I think you are desiring in all of us - isn't it? My response to Mel does not mean that I agree with him in every thing - does it? I am not trying to either encourage or discourage his interaction with any of us, in whatever manner he chooses - at least not right now! You, Tom, seem to cut off discussion rather arbitrarily - and with an air of arrogance. I have my shortcomings and poor ways too. Not to be insensitive to you Tom, but - once again, thank-you Mel.
He calls me a heretic and an "antichrist". Those kind of things. If my having a problem with that strikes you as arrogant, well - OK. Then I am arrogant.
This is when I cut off discussions:
1. When they go into the "You're a heretic" route.
2. When they show signs of going nowhere.
3. When they just turn into arguments and delving into motives.
As I have told you before, asterisktom, I totally understand and agree with what you are saying about an "earthly" reign by our Lord, but Preterism misses the boat in answer to this errant Pre-millennial view. Post-millenialism is where the answer is to be found that more properly meshes the good points of both incorrect views. The following quote is copied from a posting I had in another thread, found here: http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1550446&postcount=12 It is fairly concise, but somewhat lengthy of necessity.
“Sigh” Lastdays bores me with this antichrist, gnostic, heretic, schtick over and over. I’m so past that about 100 gazillion times ago.
Tom would like to see you bone up on Greek to engage him in a more scholarly debate, but I’m not greedy I’d settle for boning up the English a little bit to sling more creative insults our way.
I think as your primary antagonists we deserve a little move creativity in your vilification. It’s only good manners.
Even second graders mange nonsensical, remedial rhyming in their taunts (heretic, meretic, leretic).
If you persist in the same old, same old you posts appear tired, your effort forced, and your audience will grow bored. Think of what you owe them if not us.
Come on Mel crank up your noggin, get those cerebral juices flowing and those electrical impulses firing and entertain us with worthy vitriol. Let’s see some creativity!
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Thanks again Mel!
I am not sure if you were aware of this, Eagle, but my comments, those various verses, were directed toward Mel, and some assertions that he made. Which is not to say that you can't answer them as well.
Short answer for now is that, yes, your view does solve some problems but it creates others.
But let me take the time to read your offering more carefully.
Problems/questions I have with this view:
How does the Prince of Ezekiel fit in with this scenario? I forgot whether you believe in a 1000 year Millennium.
The problems I have are several-fold: No accounting for apocalyptic language (NT catalysmic supposed events are phrased in same way as OT events that are clearly past).
Also, you seem to see the "end" (the eschaton) in a different way than the Bible does - the end of the Jewish age. Instead you posit a time when physical (made) things are removed, whereas the Bible says "the earth abides forever" (Ecc. 1:4) and "the foundation of the earth will not be removed forever", Psalm 104:5. Those passages that do speak of a New Heavens and New Earth are really using OT covenantal language referring to the age to come, the time of the church. Try doing a study on "heavens and Earth" in the Bible. I guarantee, if you follow it through - without just reaching for a commentary - you will be surprised at the result. For instance, look at Isa. 51:13 - 16
13 And you forget the LORD your Maker,
Who stretched out the heavens
And laid the foundations of the earth;
You have feared continually every day
Because of the fury of the oppressor,
When he has prepared to destroy.
And where is the fury of the oppressor?
14 The captive exile hastens, that he may be loosed,
That he should not die in the pit,
And that his bread should not fail.
15 But I am the LORD your God,
Who divided the sea whose waves roared—
The LORD of hosts is His name.
16 And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”
Notice the underlined parts. This is covenantal language. Verse 16 speaks of His planting the heavens and laying the foundations of the earth. This all must be spiritually understood. Clearly, the physical heavens were already "planted".
All of this background, Eagle, carries over into a proper understanding of the NT "end times" - Jewish end times. Modern eschatology suffers because it is all NT-based and not at all grounded in that understanding that the NT writers themselves were grounded in, the Old testament. In your whole post, with all of your verses and passages, there is not reference to the Old Testament. I believe that is where you need to do more research.
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nEagle
I read your post on post-millennium coming, there are some valid points there.
I think part of the problem is that we are shown twice that all the nations will come against Israel. And the key to understanding the difference is shown by Israel being at peace. Now, we are told that there will be a peace treaty made by the antichrist that will be broken during the tribulation. But I do not believe this is when Israel shall live in unwalled cities and in peace.
For instance, I used to believe Zechariah 14 was speaking of the Lord coming at the end of the tribulation, but now I am leaning toward this being when Jesus comes at the end of the millennium.
Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
The Preterist cannot handle this passage, because it shows the Lord is coming to defend Jerusalem from all the nations that come against it, not destroy it as happened in 70 A.D.
But notice in verse 5 it says the Lord will come with all the saints. So this is after the rapture, and also after the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation.
It also shows these armies will be vaporized while they stand on their feet which agrees with Revelations 20.
Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Now Revelations 20
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
In verse 4 we see the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation, because these people were beheaded and now live and reign a thousand years.
Then at the end of the millennium all the nations will again come against Israel. This is when Israel will live in peace in unwalled cities. But notice Jesus devours these enemies with fire.
So, I am now leaning toward Zechariah 14 and many other prophesies that were assigned to the end of the tribulation as actually describing after the millennium. I could be wrong, I am still studying this.
If so, we have Christ coming at the rapture, coming at the end of the tribulation setting up the millennial kingdom, and possibly coming again at the end of the millennium.
Just food for thought.
I read your post on post-millennium coming, there are some valid points there.
I think part of the problem is that we are shown twice that all the nations will come against Israel. And the key to understanding the difference is shown by Israel being at peace. Now, we are told that there will be a peace treaty made by the antichrist that will be broken during the tribulation. But I do not believe this is when Israel shall live in unwalled cities and in peace.
For instance, I used to believe Zechariah 14 was speaking of the Lord coming at the end of the tribulation, but now I am leaning toward this being when Jesus comes at the end of the millennium.
Zech 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
The Preterist cannot handle this passage, because it shows the Lord is coming to defend Jerusalem from all the nations that come against it, not destroy it as happened in 70 A.D.
But notice in verse 5 it says the Lord will come with all the saints. So this is after the rapture, and also after the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation.
It also shows these armies will be vaporized while they stand on their feet which agrees with Revelations 20.
Zech 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
Now Revelations 20
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
In verse 4 we see the first resurrection at the end of the tribulation, because these people were beheaded and now live and reign a thousand years.
Then at the end of the millennium all the nations will again come against Israel. This is when Israel will live in peace in unwalled cities. But notice Jesus devours these enemies with fire.
So, I am now leaning toward Zechariah 14 and many other prophesies that were assigned to the end of the tribulation as actually describing after the millennium. I could be wrong, I am still studying this.
If so, we have Christ coming at the rapture, coming at the end of the tribulation setting up the millennial kingdom, and possibly coming again at the end of the millennium.
Just food for thought.
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There. See what I mean, Eagle. Case in point. People just grab onto these images in the New Testament, like fire coming from God and take it so slavishly literal.
But they willingly forget that "fire came from God" in the Old Testament, easily over a dozen times. Just three or four were literal events, but the overwhelming majority (especially those in the prophetical books - written in the same genre as Revelation) were clearly apocalyptical imagery.
Until Christians get really familiar with the whole Bible - including all those clean pages - they will never make proper sense of their thumbed-up, dogeared favorite parts of the Bible.
Well, when the scriptures say that all the nations will come against Jerusalem and God brought fire down and devoured them, I believe that is literal. Why would it not be?
If this fire in Revelations 20 is not real, then explain it.
And you know, I could say to you that you need to learn your Bible as well, you still will not admit that many scriptures show Jesus will come to save Jerusalem, not destroy it. I have shown you multiple scriptures that say this, but you simply ignore it or try to explain it away. Quite unsuccessfully I would say.
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I did. See above.
You said the scriptures say fire came from God easily over a dozen times. I just went to Blue Bible and searched "fire came God" and it showed just 5 verses. All five are speaking of literal fire, two concerning the fire that came down on the false prophets when Elijah prayed, one when fire came down from heaven and destroyed Job's sheep and shepherds who attended them, once concerning Nebuchadnezzar that had nothing to do with fire coming from God but had these three words in the verse, and lastly the one verse in Rev 20 where God destroys these armies coming against Israel.
In each and every case it is speaking of literal fire.
If you are going to make statements like this, you ought to back them up. You probably feel secure that folks will just take your word for statements like this and not check for themselves.
Hey asterisktom,
In that lengthy post, I said that there is a millennium to occur - which would of course have to be before he comes - hence a Post-millennial return.
You say no references to OT, and yet you miss that I say that Peter's whole point in his sermon on Pentecost is to demonstrate that Jesus is/was/does fulfill all the OT prophecies concerning Messiah. Carefully read Acts 2 (and beyond if you wish), and if this is not Peter's point - what is his point?
I have provided you with clear consistent scripture by NT writers interpreting OT writers, about Christ's reign; from where; until when; other simultaneous events surrounding His return - and yet you seek for clarity in the shrouded mysteries of Psalms, Eccl., Isaiah, and Thessalonians. This brother Tom, is what I would call straining at a gnat - to swallow a camel.
This is so true. If your understanding of eschatology is limited to the New Testament the loss is yours. I speak from experience. Once I saw how N.T. writings echo and tie back into their O.T. foundations and learned how to read the N.T. in the eyes of those who wrote it based on their knowledge of the O.T. it is a true epiphany. The bible ties together so much better and makes so much more sense from cover to cover.
This reminded me of something I read recently by Don Preston on Galatians 4 that involves commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1 which in turn refers back to the Promise made to Aabraham. In Galatians 4:28 – 30. Paul writes you (Christians) are children of Promise. This is a profound statement. The true children of the Promise are the Christians not the DNA descendents of Abraham. This means the literal DNA descendents of Abraham were merely a foreshadowing of the Christians. God’s Promise to Abraham was fulfilled in Christian descendants not DNA descendents.
This indelible clarification by Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit alone is enough to wipe away all eschatology which tries to resurrect a literal Israel. Now that we have put the foreshadow behind us and have arrived at the actual Promise of Christianity there is nothing to tie back into the foreshadow. There is no reason to think “all the nations” will attack Israel or the Jewish people based on eschatology. Israel may well be attacked in the future, but the modern political state of Israel is not God’s chose people and they aren’t mentioned in the bible. The foreshadow was wrapped up in 70 A. D.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Thank you Mel!
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Thanks for this Winman.
Here's the thing, which I just said to asterisktom as well, I have presented what I consider a MAJOR doctrine - as it pertains to Eschatology, at least. There is much clear, consistent, scriptural support for it. I have only scratched the surface with what I presented in that post - I hope enough to whet some appetites. This doctrine is unknown and unheard of - generally speaking - and I guess that it is best encapsulated as, The Doctrine of the Reign of Christ on the Davidic Throne at the Right Hand of the Father. So this is what I think I will call it. The point I wish to make is that to ignore so clear and consistent a doctrine - while searching for "hidden" truths in the shrouded mysteries of Zechariah, etc., is truly akin to "straining at gnats while swallowing a camel."
You theorize in your post that Christ is returning and killing many people after the resurrection - which is in fact, the death of death - ergo - no more death. How can Christ kill flesh and blood or reign "over" flesh and blood (corruptible) when their subjection to death has been vanquished by Jesus very return? There is no more death at this point - therefore, there is no more flesh and blood either - do you see? That is why it is called "the end."
There is this one caveat: I agree (or I say - if you do not agree with me :tongue3
that at Christ's return there is the consummation of great battle or conflict that will be simultaneously "ended" through physical death - at essentially the same time as the resurrection, and therefore, "victory" over death. To sum up, there is simultaneously, the Return of Christ; the Victory at Armageddon (?); the Victory over death; The End.
Oh good grief. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you take me too literally here as well. When I put "fire came from God" in quotes I was quoting you.
You need to look up "fire" ""burning" "flames" etc. in proximity to "God" "Lord" etc. This is harder work, but they are there. Of course, it helps to have read much in the Bible, thus these verses will come more readily to mind.
I do feel secure in what I believe here, yes, but the opposite to what you so glibly state. I wish fervently that people would truly check these things for themselves. I really do, Winman.
Saying there are references to the OT and actually providing and dealing with them are two different things. See Logos1's comments on this.
They are not shrouded mysteries,; they are unfamiliar territory for you. Until they are otherwise, I believe that I am at an impasse here. It is not straining at a gnat. It is scripture that is quite pertinent.
I am not going on with this until we take a closer look at that inspired gnat. It is the basis for all - every one of - those verses that you quote in the NT.