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What if you did believe you could not loose salvation?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
- Start date
I wouldn't look for ways to sin but I would spend a lot less energy trying to resist temptation. Some have said they have no interest in sin but I don't know what planet you live on. I am tempted to do something wrong several times a day, and I expect most of you are too. You just don't think about it because you are "fire proof." I would only go to church in bad weather; nice days would be on the golf course.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
But what "IF" along with finding out that you are OSAS - saved -- you also cannot FAIL to "persevere in doing good" Rom 2:7?
Any more than you can "fail to continue being human"?
Do you worry about being "cat"?
Suppose you discovered that you are no longer tempted in a way that you ever actually yield to (as to be considered "not persevering")
(Warning - there may be more "mind control" implied in this what-if scenario than Arminians who are accustomed to free will might be used to)
in Christ,
Bob
Any more than you can "fail to continue being human"?
Do you worry about being "cat"?
Suppose you discovered that you are no longer tempted in a way that you ever actually yield to (as to be considered "not persevering")
(Warning - there may be more "mind control" implied in this what-if scenario than Arminians who are accustomed to free will might be used to)
in Christ,
Bob
Seems too difficult a thing to answer? Makes you uncomfortable? Would that revel that your not serving God out of Love and gratitude but would want to sin it up?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My answer to your post here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1582480&postcount=14
Response to what was actually said - welcomed.
in Christ,
Bob
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1582480&postcount=14
Response to what was actually said - welcomed.
in Christ,
Bob
Fred's Wife
Member
Amen! I agree.
I know I cannot lose my salvation because I cannot lose that which I did not earn. (Ephesians 2:8-9) Salvation is a free gift of grace (Romans 4:4-5). :thumbs:
Zenas, I appreceate your honesty. Shouldn't your last statement reflect a relationship problem between you and the Lord?
You are saying that it is inconvienent for you to go to church. Your reasons for church seem to be misplaced.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is a good point.
Both Arminians and Calvinist claim the experience of being born-again and assurance of acceptance with God as well as the "joy of salvation".
(So it is kind of "odd" that some of the OSAS folks here post as if "that" is the difference).
The difference in reality is that OSAS plays fast and loose with the Word of God when it comes to warnings about failure to persevere that OSAS "needs" to ignore or at the very least "bend".
The "difference" is the degree to which SOME OSAS solutions "claim to know the future - ten years from today" vs what the OTHER OSAS solution says "does not matter since the perseverance texts of the Bible are to be ignored".
As I said "Warning humans that they need to remember to keep being human or else they risk becoming a hamster" is no warning at all. It is a good text to ignore.
in Christ,
Bob
Have you answered the hypothetical question presented to you in the OP?
In order to answer a hypothetical you have to seperate your answer from the dogma that you embrace.
You have to suppose that you have been wrong and ask yourself "would I live my life any differently if I believed in OSAS?"
What would change in your life Bob? Would you still strive to live a holy life before the Lord?
I don't understand what is meant by "hypothetically". NO one will ever lose their salvation. That's why it's called "eternal" life and not "temporary" life until your next sin.
I don't hypothetically know I can't lose my salvation; I KNOW I cannot lose my salvation, and that gives me peace and the feeling of being secure. I don't just believe it; I KNOW it.
glfredrick
New Member
An interesting question is, "Will God allow a person into His presence who has the potential for recapitulating Adam's sin?"
I cannot see an exercise of free will in that scenario and I believe that "you are not your own, you are bought with a price..." will be a distinct operative position of God's sovereignty. He will be King and no one else, and His divine will for eternal relationships with a sinless people, temporarily placed on hold due to the fall, will be negated eternally.
I cannot see an exercise of free will in that scenario and I believe that "you are not your own, you are bought with a price..." will be a distinct operative position of God's sovereignty. He will be King and no one else, and His divine will for eternal relationships with a sinless people, temporarily placed on hold due to the fall, will be negated eternally.
I would like to answer the question but I can not till I understand how the OP defines the salvation.
It seems the issue is that many people use words but other people have different understanding of the used words.
Maybe we should have a dictionary on this board: member - word - definition
I'll start with myself:
Janosik - salvation - an eternal life after death in heaven at the presence of God
It seems the issue is that many people use words but other people have different understanding of the used words.
Maybe we should have a dictionary on this board: member - word - definition
I'll start with myself:
Janosik - salvation - an eternal life after death in heaven at the presence of God
Steaver - salvation - born of God - Living Water indwellment - eternal life indwellment - Gift of God - new creation - in Christ - purchased of God - child of God.
Janosik, your definition is too narrow. Eternal life is regeneration - born again. You live in this eternal life here and now, you will live in this eternal life now and forever no matter where you are or what body you may wear at the time. Whether in heaven or here on earth during the mellinium reign of Christ. Eternal means never ending. Scripture declares you have it the moment God saves you - born again.
I was talking to someone about OSAS and they thought the verse about not forgiving others will not allow God to forgive us and since you can't be forgiven, you would not be going to Heaven.
I know many people in the church that have bitterness and anger towards others and even use the hate word. They can not forgive others and according to this one person, I guess they would be Hell bound?
What is your take on this?
I know many people in the church that have bitterness and anger towards others and even use the hate word. They can not forgive others and according to this one person, I guess they would be Hell bound?
What is your take on this?
I'd say you are mixing too many things together.
What does purchased of God mean?
The gifts of God are irrevocable (Ro 11:29). Eternal life is unending (self explanatory). However Paul warns those who profess Jesus Christ but are living unholy lives ought to examine themselves because something is admiss (2Cor 13). They might not be what they claim to be.
Jesus gave us an example of one who refused to forgive in Matthew 18. The example He gave was of God's forgiveness of the sins of the whole world through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But the servant did not embrace the Spirit of this forgiveness and was unchanged, unregenerated, unsaved and went about his way with an unforgiving heart towards others. The servant proved that he was not a child of God. Jesus ended His parable with a strong warning to all.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
"You" being anyone who shows that they are not of God because they do not forgive as God forgives. When the heart has truly been changed through regeneration, you will forgive one another their tresspasses.
This is a strong warning and those who hold hate or unforgiveness in their heart can have no assurance that they are indeed a child of God, no matter what they say they are. The Spirit will not let a child of God rest in peace over the matter.
The bible expresses salvation in many of these ways I posted. Those in Christ are said to have been purchased with a price and thus are owned by God. Kept by the power of God even to the glory of Jesus Christ.
Act 20:28Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Being sealed by God by the Holy Spirit. How much more assured can one get?
1Pe 1:3¶Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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glfredrick
New Member
Speaking of "salvation" in a singular sense is part of the reason that so many struggle to reconcile how it works (IMHO).
Salvation is but an overarching term that describes a number of actions that happen in some semblance of order (ordo salutis) though often to us, instantaneously.
From Theopedia (nice concise list -- easy to paste!):
Foreknowledge: God's knowing (in this sense) prior to salvation those who would be saved.
Predestination: God's choosing before time all who would be saved.
Election: God's choosing of all who would be saved.
Regeneration: God's renewing of one's life (not physically - but as opposed to the spiritual death caused by sin).
Evangelism: The communication of the Gospel by which one can be saved.
Faith: Belief and trust in the message of the Gospel.
Conversion: One's turning to God based on the Gospel.
Perseverance: One's continued true belief - remaining in the state of salvation.
Repentance: One's turning from sin to God.
Justification: God's freeing of one from the penalty of sin - the pronouncement of "not guilty" on a sinner.
Sanctification: God's separation of one from the lure of sin.
Glorification: God's final removal of all sin from the life and presence of one (in the eternal state).
In many of the items in the list above -- which make up biblical salvation -- God is the author and finisher of the item, period. For instance, there is no way that humans can elect themselves to God's kingdom. That is God's work. The way out seems to be to eliminate election, but to do so is also to eliminate all the places in the Word that speak of the election of God.
Same goes for justification, adoption, glorification, regeneration, effectual call, etc. Some tenets of salvation include human activity, sharing the gospel, sanctification, faith/repentance (two sides of the same coin), and perseverance. All the items are necessary for salvation, which seems to negate the entire concept of "easy believism" and other issues that we go back and forth over in debates.
To "define" salvation in a simple statement is difficult, but it entails an individual hearing God's call, responding by the power of the Holy Spirit, being born anew from above, then walking in that newness of life being re-created into the image of Christ our Lord until we are called to glory. No simple one-step program to be sure!
Salvation is but an overarching term that describes a number of actions that happen in some semblance of order (ordo salutis) though often to us, instantaneously.
From Theopedia (nice concise list -- easy to paste!):
Foreknowledge: God's knowing (in this sense) prior to salvation those who would be saved.
Predestination: God's choosing before time all who would be saved.
Election: God's choosing of all who would be saved.
Regeneration: God's renewing of one's life (not physically - but as opposed to the spiritual death caused by sin).
Evangelism: The communication of the Gospel by which one can be saved.
Faith: Belief and trust in the message of the Gospel.
Conversion: One's turning to God based on the Gospel.
Perseverance: One's continued true belief - remaining in the state of salvation.
Repentance: One's turning from sin to God.
Justification: God's freeing of one from the penalty of sin - the pronouncement of "not guilty" on a sinner.
Sanctification: God's separation of one from the lure of sin.
Glorification: God's final removal of all sin from the life and presence of one (in the eternal state).
In many of the items in the list above -- which make up biblical salvation -- God is the author and finisher of the item, period. For instance, there is no way that humans can elect themselves to God's kingdom. That is God's work. The way out seems to be to eliminate election, but to do so is also to eliminate all the places in the Word that speak of the election of God.
Same goes for justification, adoption, glorification, regeneration, effectual call, etc. Some tenets of salvation include human activity, sharing the gospel, sanctification, faith/repentance (two sides of the same coin), and perseverance. All the items are necessary for salvation, which seems to negate the entire concept of "easy believism" and other issues that we go back and forth over in debates.
To "define" salvation in a simple statement is difficult, but it entails an individual hearing God's call, responding by the power of the Holy Spirit, being born anew from above, then walking in that newness of life being re-created into the image of Christ our Lord until we are called to glory. No simple one-step program to be sure!
Good points. It seems this is a process. When does it start and when it ends?