Association of Reformed Baptist Churches

[Iconoclast]

You are using Samuel and trying to get an interpretation of Greek culture? There are several problems with that interpretation but since I was not here or not read your interpretation, I will not go into it.

My point was that most try to interpret that passage in light of their ignorance of Jewish culture and understanding of God, but instead try to use their Greek philosophical understanding which does not even come close to a Jewish understanding.


I do not have to even know anything to know about reformed theology to know that it is nothing more than a systematic theology by a name to identify a group of like minded folks right or wrong who read each other's books and listen to each other. That is kind of like Catholics listening to the pope.

GB
In scripture believers fellowship with and in the word of God. God does not have lone ranger christians.

16Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.

17And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.

18Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

GB historically the church had drifted off. God raised up reformers to return to the word of God. Reformation means setting things right.
if God has given pastors and teachers to the church, why should we despise these gifts,and complain that they are just reading and talking to each other.
GB you are interacting with other believers now,,how is that much different?:type:

 

[gb93433]

The problem of evil,for you gb93433
http://www.sgbcsv.org/literature/ProblemOfEvil.pdf:type:
let us know what you think of it

The author of that article has his theology all mixed up like mixing potatoes and corn and calling it mashed potatoes. It is not potatoes or corn.

On page 2 the author writes, "That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24)."

Then on page 11 he writes, "God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity."

The two do not agree. If God in his sovereignty created everything then he must have created sin as well. His creation was by command. He spoke. . and it came into being.

He did not ever interpret the passage in 1 Sam 16.

 

[gb93433]

In scripture believers fellowship with and in the word of God. God does not have lone ranger christians.

Sometimes "ye" and sometimes "no." Where would you classify the prophets in regards to the people.

GB historically the church had drifted off. God raised up reformers to return to the word of God. Reformation means setting things right.
if God has given pastors and teachers to the church, why should we despise these gifts,and complain that they are just reading and talking to each other.
GB you are interacting with other believers now,,how is that much different?

I agree with you in this. However it happened way before the reformation with Calvin and Luther. That was just a focal point. It has been happening for years in America. There has always been a remnant.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sometimes "ye" and sometimes "no." Where would you classify the prophets in regards to the people.

I agree with you in this. However it happened way before the reformation with Calvin and Luther. That was just a focal point. It has been happening for years in America. There has always been a remnant.

Hello GB ,
Thank you for your response.
you asked;

Where would you classify the prophets in regards to the people.

The prophets when functioning as prophets received a word from God and had to deliver the message as God spoke it to them. Many times the message was one of judgement to come, or of the need for repentance.
So I see the prophets as unique,as the Apostles were unique.

The link to the article was from the church web site. The Pastor will respond to you if you have a specific question as time permits.
In the meantime GB if you could so i could get to understand your concerns better and seek to address them, if time permits, could you list 5or ten verses, or teachings that you see where you think the "reformed" have not understood correctly. Thank You

 

[Iconoclast]

The author of that article has his theology all mixed up like mixing potatoes and corn and calling it mashed potatoes. It is not potatoes or corn.

On page 2 the author writes, "That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24)."

Then on page 11 he writes, "God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity."

The two do not agree. If God in his sovereignty created everything then he must have created sin as well. His creation was by command. He spoke. . and it came into being.

He did not ever interpret the passage in 1 Sam 16.

he did right here on page two,slow down and take time to read and see the verses.
I think you are not understanding what you are reading on page 11.

That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24). He sent an evil spirit to obsess King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14; 18:10; 19:9). He brought evil upon Israel for her sins (1 Kgs. 9:9). A lying spirit was sent by God to lead Ahab to his defeat and death (1 Kgs. 22:20–23). The Lord appointed the defeat of Ahithophel’s counsel that he might bring evil upon Absolom (2 Sam. 17:14). God turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Israelites (Ps. 105:25). The greatest crime in history—the illegality of the trial, the abuse, shame, suffering, and death of the Son of God with all its attendant sin on the part of men—was predetermined by God (Lk. 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28). How can God do these things and yet remain holy, righteous and free from sin? The issues are two: the origin of sin and the problem of evil.

• God ordains sin, but he does not command it. Sin exists as part of the Divine teleological purpose, but it is not forced upon men by necessity. Men cannot make God culpable for their own sin and breach of God’s preceptive will. They must, as moral, rational, responsible beings, bear the consequences of their own transgressions. God thus controls evil, but not in the sense that he rejoices or takes pleasure in it. To say that God does not control evil is to deny his omnipotence. To say that he wills evil in the same sense as he does what is right and holy is to deny his righteousness and holiness. To say that he controls evil in such a way that men are relieved of their moral responsibility is to deny both their free moral agency and his essential nature. To say, however, that God ordains men to contradict his Law–Word through their own willful actions, and that he controls this for the ultimate good and glory of his eternal purpose, is to assert the absolute sovereignty of God over evil and yet preserve his wisdom, righteousness and holiness. Finite creatures must leave such mystery to the infinite God.
Donald Macleod

THE ORIGIN OF SIN
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of

Gb there can be nothing that exists outside of God

 

[gb93433]

That God is absolutely sovereign over all things, even evil, and uses such for his purpose and glory, is a scriptural fact: “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” (Isa. 45:7).5 God sent an evil spirit between the men of Shechem and Abimelech (Judg. 9:23–24). He sent an evil spirit to obsess King Saul (1 Sam. 16:14; 18:10; 19:9). He brought evil upon Israel for her sins (1 Kgs. 9:9). A lying spirit was sent by God to lead Ahab to his defeat and death (1 Kgs. 22:20–23). The Lord appointed the defeat of Ahithophel’s counsel that he might bring evil upon Absolom (2 Sam. 17:14). God turned the hearts of the Egyptians to hate the Israelites (Ps. 105:25). The greatest crime in history—the illegality of the trial, the abuse, shame, suffering, and death of the Son of God with all its attendant sin on the part of men—was predetermined by God (Lk. 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27–28). How can God do these things and yet remain holy, righteous and free from sin? The issues are two: the origin of sin and the problem of evil.

I saw nothing to indicate that he interpreted the passage in 1 Sam and brought together the theology of God and evil. To restate the verse is not interpretation. I can simply state that I believe the Bible and be confused as ever.

there can be nothing that exists outside of God

I agree. So would you say that sin and evil are a part of that (Jn 1:3)?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"More reformed" is not biblical. What did Jesus stand for when he confronted man. It was always around the idea of what was godly and what did God want. I am not interested in whimsical theologies that come passing through the years and onto another. I have seen loads of them come and go but one thing remains the same, scripture. The older I get the more I see the tyrants and antagonists who crash and those who are all about image but few really have given their complete lives to Christ free of the encumbrances Hebrews talks about. There are always religious politicians present throughout history. Look at what the religious politicians told the prophets such as Amos and Jesus. Look at how many followed Jesus and how many followed the crowd. Imagine how many politicians left their politics to follow Jesus. How many religious politicians in our denominations today would give up everything to follow Jesus.

The man who got me started in business did not have enough money in the bank when he died to pay for much of a funeral. The last man that he built a building for paid for the entire funeral. The funeral lasted for almost three hours with 1200 people present and person after person standing up to say how he had led them and how they are in ministry today because of him.

GB....I like that term "Religious Polotician" that puts definition to allot of people I know....not a good one I might add.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your ad-hominem attack shows you do not know much about us. If I may remind you, I went to a non-reformed seminary taught mostly by non-reformed professors. I respect them and they respect me. Thus, your little attacks show your ignorance of not just me but of the entire reformed community. I actually read your books by your authors and studied in their seminaries. Do you read mine and have you studied in my seminaries?

Touche'

GB....I would assume sir that our Ruiz has the better of you

 

[gb93433]

GB....I like that term "Religious Polotician" that puts definition to allot of people I know....not a good one I might add.

all we have to do is to look at the fruit of their life in terms of fruit of the Spirit and making disciples. Fishermen catch fish. Those who catch fish and bring them to maturity do it with intention.

When I was a young Christian there was a short time when I started asking men in the church about what they did when they spent time with God. I got some interesting surprises. Most of them were quite uncomfortable. I determined that I would not get involved in any movement but would study and invest my life in things that last for eternity. I can only find two things of eternal value. The word of God and the souls of men. When I asked the president of a mission board who was at our church speaking for one month he spent time with me and told me what he did. I immediately saw the contrast. Later I asked to meet with him in his office. He told me things I will never forget. He was serving in the same area where praying Hyde had been. He said that is the only ministry today that has lasted throughout the years. That says a lot about prayer and praying men. A few days ago I spoke with a close friend of mine who was a missionary in Ethiopia under communism and he told me about what he experienced about prayer. For me movements are like chaff. Unless men and women are praying not much happens and they quickly burn up and the people to the next movement. I have never met one man who fervently prays who does not know his Bible well and studies it.

Years ago when I made the decision to do what last for eternity I wrote in the front of my Bible, "Do what lasts for eternity." Shortly thereafter I was asked to lead a children's Ministry. After looking at curriculum I decided that we would have one verse lessons each week. I had the children memorize the same verse that the lesson was on. A church in city asked to come by and see what we were doing. Their comment was that they noticed we did not have any crafts. I told them that we did not have time and that kids were sharing their faith. I believe that the majority of people sitting in the pew are on starvation diet. We must teach them to feed themselves. We must teach them to make disciples so that wherever they go they know what to do and how to make disciples.

Isn't the Christian life all about the fact that God calls us to two things:
1) Himself
2) To make disciples.

What else is there?

 

[gb93433]

Then you know little about us. I do read my own books, but I read others as well. When I used to do book reviews for publishers, I read a myriad of books from a variety of sources. Even this year, I have read more Christian books by non-reformed authors than by reformed.

What books have you read of mine? [/quote]You have not listed any books that you have read. I am not a so called psychic.

The following list is about 1/2 of what I have read in the last three months. Which of those have you read?

The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus
Did the Resurrection Happen?: A Conversation With Gary Habermas and Antony Flew
Mad Church Disease: Overcoming the Burnout Epidemic
Plato: The Republic, Books 1-5 (Loeb Classical Library No. 237)
Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs
Wounded Minister, The: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks
Antagonists in the Church
Clergy Killers
The Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek: An Introduction
Peacemaking Pastor, The: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Church Conflict
The Moody Handbook of Preaching
Using Illustrations to Preach with Power Using Illustrations to Preach with Power
Never Call Them Jerks Never Call Them Jerks
Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible
Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream
Crazy Love: Overwhelmed by a Relentless God
Christian Counseling 3rd Edition
Praying Hyde, Apostle of Prayer: The Life Story of John Hyde
For Couples Only: Eyeopening Insights about How the Opposite Sex Thinks
Five Ministry Killers and How to Defeat Them: Help for Frustrated Pastors--Including New Research From the Barna Group
Managing Church Conflict Managing Church Conflict
Who Stole My Church: What to Do When the Church You Love Tries to Enter the 21st Century Who Stole My Church: What to Do When the Church You Love Tries to Enter the 21st Century
The Eight Essential Steps to Conflict Resolution The Eight Essential Steps to Conflict Resolution
The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity
Sermon on the Mount: A Foundation for Understanding
The Message of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7 : Christian Counter-Culture)
Jesus' Sermon on the Mount and His Confrontation with the World: An Exposition of Matthew 5-10 J
Following the Master
Pastoring Men: What Works, What Doesn't, and Why It Matters Now More Than Ever
Why Men Hate Going to Church
The Idiomatic Expressions of the Hebrew Bible: Their Meaning and Translation Through Componential Analysis

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well GB.....your certainly not like allot of the pompous loud mouths I'm used to!

However Im no preacher & so unless there is an opportunity to make a disciple I'm not going out of my way.

 

[UkuleleMike]

When many churches reject biblical truth, to work to restore it is reformation. You need to study history a bit brother.

When the 'reformation' movement broke out, what they were trying to do was to reform the Catholic church. The problem with this, was that the old RCC could not be reformed, as it was rotten from its inception-her foundation was sand-you can't rebuild a structure built on a bad foundation. Luther never meant to even leave the RCC, but to fix it-which he found couldn't be done.

The problem with 'reformed' churches, is that they each brought a little of mother out with them, which to this day continues to fester in them, and is inexorably drawing them back in.

True Christianity never died, and never needed reforming-people just needed to get out of the false practices, completely, and begin to follow it again.

Sorry, but even Calvin acted like a pope in his personal kingdom, using civil powers to keep the followers in line, punishing severely those who didn't conform to his way of thinking. I have no use for a man's narrow view and neat, tidy doctrines that try to encapsulate the eternal things of God. Calvinism and Arminianism are just man's ways to try and make sense of that which they cannot completely comprehend, and I have little use for either. I'll follow the One that died for me and can take me to heaven.

 

[Ruiz]

The following list is about 1/2 of what I have read in the last three months. Which of those have you read?

The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus
Did the Resurrection Happen?: A Conversation With Gary Habermas and Antony Flew
Mad Church Disease: Overcoming the Burnout Epidemic
Plato: The Republic, Books 1-5 (Loeb Classical Library No. 237)
Love & Respect: The Love She Most Desires; The Respect He Desperately Needs
Wounded Minister, The: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks
Antagonists in the Church
Clergy Killers
The Syntax and Semantics of the Verb in Classical Greek: An Introduction
Peacemaking Pastor, The: A Biblical Guide to Resolving Church Conflict
The Moody Handbook of Preaching
Using Illustrations to Preach with Power Using Illustrations to Preach with Power
Never Call Them Jerks Never Call Them Jerks
Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible
Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream
Crazy Love: Overwhelmed by a Relentless God
Christian Counseling 3rd Edition
Praying Hyde, Apostle of Prayer: The Life Story of John Hyde
For Couples Only: Eyeopening Insights about How the Opposite Sex Thinks
Five Ministry Killers and How to Defeat Them: Help for Frustrated Pastors--Including New Research From the Barna Group
Managing Church Conflict Managing Church Conflict
Who Stole My Church: What to Do When the Church You Love Tries to Enter the 21st Century Who Stole My Church: What to Do When the Church You Love Tries to Enter the 21st Century
The Eight Essential Steps to Conflict Resolution The Eight Essential Steps to Conflict Resolution
The Heresy of Orthodoxy: How Contemporary Culture's Fascination with Diversity Has Reshaped Our Understanding of Early Christianity
Sermon on the Mount: A Foundation for Understanding
The Message of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7 : Christian Counter-Culture)
Jesus' Sermon on the Mount and His Confrontation with the World: An Exposition of Matthew 5-10 J
Following the Master
Pastoring Men: What Works, What Doesn't, and Why It Matters Now More Than Ever
Why Men Hate Going to Church
The Idiomatic Expressions of the Hebrew Bible: Their Meaning and Translation Through Componential Analysis

I do not know what point you are trying to make. If you feel insecure because I attacked the idea that you have read little of my side and know little about us, then this does not combat me at one point. Also, if we want to compare academically vigorous material we have read to try to see who is studying more, a debate I think is fruitless, then just remember that on August 20 I completed my third Masters degree. With about 140 post-graduate hours, you are barking up the wrong tree. However, that is not the point I am making nor wish to get into. If you want to compare how many non-reformed books I have read and how many reformed books you have read (I am not sure how many you have there) that is not the point either. Note, my 3rd Masters is from a non-reformed school, I do not think we read very many reformed authors.

Finally, I do not know all these books and you did not list the authors. However, some of these books and authors I know personally, studied under, and would sit down over a cup of coffee to discuss theology. One of your authors was majorly influential in my life and whose discussions helped transform me to become reformed. While he was not reformed, our discussions were enlightening and led me with a greater appreciation for theology and reformed theology.

Could I list all the books I have read? Probably as I have 3 months of vigorous academic work I could call upon. Yet, that is not the purpose. The purpose was combating your ad-hominem attacks, your lack of understanding of reformed theology, and your straw men argumentation. We can get into a "mine is bigger than yours" but that does not prove anything.

Good dialogue void of these attacks is the solution, not how many books you may have read.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh my....wouldn't it be tragic if either one or both of you dropped dead & left all that studying in the dirt (literally). Then who would pay off all the student loans....hmmmm

 

[Ruiz]

I took very few student loans for all my years of schooling, most were from my undergraduate work. My last Masters had loans but I was reimbursed after finishing the course, so I really didn't borrow the money for too long.

Except for a small debt that we will eliminate (hopefully soon), I am debt free. My wife has said, "I don't mind you getting degrees as long as we don't go into debt." Well, that is what we have done.

I want to get a Doctorate in Leadership and another in Theology. I would also love to get another Masters in Education and then a Doctorate in Educational Leadership. I doubt I will get all these degrees, but I will get one more.

I love to learn. So, I consider academics a hobby.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Get a doctorate, get a job on Wall Street & your fortunes made. Well you will have to make one compromise...ha, ha:thumbs:

 

[Jim1999]

There was a laddie at college named Breeze,
Weighed down with BA's and BD's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain."
"You are killing yourself by degrees."

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jerome]

Few (not "MANY") ARBCA churches are also SBC.
I was glad to see "church planting" being promoted on its website.
That is certainly more ethical than the "let's just take over existing Baptist churches" tactic often employed by the "Reformed".

 

[TomVols]

Few (not "MANY") of ARBCA churches are also SBC.
I was glad to see "church planting" being promoted on its website.
That is certainly more ethical than the "let's just take over existing Baptist churches" tactic often employed by the "Reformed".

The "takeover SBC churches" belongs to the IFBs. I can name a dozens in several states...just in the past few years. Reformed folks don't do this. They are more apt to start their own churches.

 

[sag38]

I can name two prominent churches where reformed pastors came in and forcefully tried to move the church in a reformed direction to the determent of the church. Not saying it is a trend as it used to be with IBF's but it is not uncommon.