If God is silent what should the preacher do?

[convicted1]

You ARE Church of Christ, aren't you. Church of Christ is a cult. They believe in baptismal regeneration and works salvation and think they are the only ones going to heaven. I hope this is not you.

As to your Church of Christ argument against instrumentation in musical worship-

Just because the Bible says to worship him with heart and voice doesn't mean that we are forbidden to use anything else.

If I say, "Go to the grocery store and buy me some milk and cheese," and you pick me up a box of chocolates too doesn't mean you've violated my command. You picked up the milk and the cheese- therefore you obeyed the command.

God says to worship him with heart and voice- but if you do that plus play an organ- you have not violated God's command because you have done exactly what he commanded- you worshiped with heart and voice.

It would have to say, worship him with heart and voice ALONE- for it to say what you are twisting it to say.

To add to what you say; the reason why I am against "music" in church is this; people will take the ball and run with it. What I mean by this is when someone brings in a gee-tar, someone will eventually say, "A bass would go good with that"! Then later maybe someone will say, 'How about some drums, too?" Before you know it, you might have a "rock 'n roll" band". A church close to where I live started using "music" when they used to be an "acapella" only church. Things escalated until some members left because the "music" was so loud, it drowned out the singing, and all most could hear was the "music". So the scriptures may be silent on some things, some people will go further with "things" than others do. In reality, I guessed I didn't really "add" to what you posted, and for that I am sorry. I am not trying to "cut you down at the knees" Brother. But, when you have people jumping up and down in a church service during music, I think things have gone a little too far. But we all do what we feel is right in the sight of the Lord! With love!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[RAdam]

You ARE Church of Christ, aren't you. Church of Christ is a cult. They believe in baptismal regeneration and works salvation and think they are the only ones going to heaven. I hope this is not you.

As to your Church of Christ argument against instrumentation in musical worship-

Just because the Bible says to worship him with heart and voice doesn't mean that we are forbidden to use anything else.

If I say, "Go to the grocery store and buy me some milk and cheese," and you pick me up a box of chocolates too doesn't mean you've violated my command. You picked up the milk and the cheese- therefore you obeyed the command.

God says to worship him with heart and voice- but if you do that plus play an organ- you have not violated God's command because you have done exactly what he commanded- you worshiped with heart and voice.

It would have to say, worship him with heart and voice ALONE- for it to say what you are twisting it to say.

No, I'm not Church of Christ.

Let me ask you a question. Why couldn't Naaman have washed himself in one of the rivers of Syria, which he considered to be superior to Jordan? God didn't forbid it. Why couldn't he? Well, the obvious answer is because God (or rather God's prophet) told him how to carry out this procedure that would result in his healing, and in doing so a particular river was pointed out. Had the prophet told Naaman that he was to wash in a river seven times, he could have washed in any river. But, because he was told which river to wash in, obviously he was restricted to that river, and only that river. God didn't need to forbid every other river in the world by name, he had done so by pointing to a particular river.

God didn't have to forbid every other instrument of music, particularly those that weren't yet in existence. He told us to use two particular instruments to worship Him in song - the heart and voice.

 

[RAdam]

This is the exact same argument the Church of Christ uses to condemn ANY musical instruments in worship.

The New Testament does not condemn musical instruments- therefore we are to assume that they are fair game- particularly since the Old Testament, written by the same God commands that we worship him with a multiplicity of musical instruments.

Where do you think the Church of Christ came up with this idea of not using musical instruments in church? They trace their roots to Alexander Campbell. For a while Campbell was parading around as a Baptist, although it soon became obvious that he wasn't in agreement with them, and the Baptists began withdrawing from him. He borrowed several things from the Baptists, including the stance they held on musical instruments in the worship service.

 

[RAdam]

Again this comes back to where does the NT explicitly "forbid" the use of instruments. This is exactly what the OP is talking about. To say we don't have liberty with instruments cannot be demonstrated in the bible. In fact I can't remember reading anywhere in scripture where any instruments were actually forbidden, anyone know any?? Yes the bible speaks volumes on our attitude and heart when we worship and praise but the instruments get more of a supplimental mention.

Darren

Where, in the bible, am I forbidden from preaching from the newspaper? Or from the writings of Confucius? Or from Shakespeare? Or from Greek mythology? Find me one verse in the bible that tells me that I am not to preach from Dr. Seuss. Or find me one that tells me I shouldn't preach from all these new vampire novels that are so popular today. I can't think of one, can you? Why can't I do those things? They aren't forbidden in scripture in the terms you state.

It's obvious that when Paul said unto Timothy, "preach the word," that he implicitly forbid everything else from being preached during worship service. God didn't have to tell me not to use those things to preach to His people, because He had told me specifically what to use, that being the word of God. Everything that isn't the word is not to be used for worship of God in preaching. Likewise, when God told us what particular instruments to use in worship of Him in song, He implicitly forbid everything else from being used. That means I can't use an organ, a piano, a guitar, drums, or anything else but the heart and voice, in just the same way as I cannot preach the local newspaper or Shakespeare.

 

[Luke2427]

No, I'm not Church of Christ.

Let me ask you a question. Why couldn't Naaman have washed himself in one of the rivers of Syria, which he considered to be superior to Jordan? God didn't forbid it. Why couldn't he? Well, the obvious answer is because God (or rather God's prophet) told him how to carry out this procedure that would result in his healing, and in doing so a particular river was pointed out. Had the prophet told Naaman that he was to wash in a river seven times, he could have washed in any river. But, because he was told which river to wash in, obviously he was restricted to that river, and only that river. God didn't need to forbid every other river in the world by name, he had done so by pointing to a particular river.

God didn't have to forbid every other instrument of music, particularly those that weren't yet in existence. He told us to use two particular instruments to worship Him in song - the heart and voice.

No sir. You don't get to just ask me a question without addressing my argument. It took a small bit of time and effort of formulate that argument and you just threw it aside and responded by saying, "Let me ask you a question..."

Address the argument THEN ask your questions.

 

[Luke2427]

Where, in the bible, am I forbidden from preaching from the newspaper? Or from the writings of Confucius? Or from Shakespeare? Or from Greek mythology? Find me one verse in the bible that tells me that I am not to preach from Dr. Seuss. Or find me one that tells me I shouldn't preach from all these new vampire novels that are so popular today. I can't think of one, can you? Why can't I do those things? They aren't forbidden in scripture in the terms you state.

It's obvious that when Paul said unto Timothy, "preach the word," that he implicitly forbid everything else from being preached during worship service. God didn't have to tell me not to use those things to preach to His people, because He had told me specifically what to use, that being the word of God. Everything that isn't the word is not to be used for worship of God in preaching. Likewise, when God told us what particular instruments to use in worship of Him in song, He implicitly forbid everything else from being used. That means I can't use an organ, a piano, a guitar, drums, or anything else but the heart and voice, in just the same way as I cannot preach the local newspaper or Shakespeare.

You actually can refer to other things besides the "Word" when you are preaching. You can refer to the statue to the unknown god. You can refer to the lessons of 9-11. What you cannot do is preach these things AS the word of God.

God did not implicitly mean, "Only quote Scripture alone when you preach using no other words than holy writ," nor did he mean, "Only use heart and voice alone when you sing using no other instruments than voice."

What you have to have to have a point is a passage which says- heart and voice ALONE.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Let me ask you a question. Why couldn't Naaman have washed himself in one of the rivers of Syria, which he considered to be superior to Jordan? God didn't forbid it. Why couldn't he? Well, the obvious answer is because God (or rather God's prophet) told him how to carry out this procedure that would result in his healing, and in doing so a particular river was pointed out. Had the prophet told Naaman that he was to wash in a river seven times, he could have washed in any river. But, because he was told which river to wash in, obviously he was restricted to that river, and only that river. God didn't need to forbid every other river in the world by name, he had done so by pointing to a particular river.

Naaman could've washed himself anywhere he pleased, he just wouldn't have been healed until he followed the instructions. That didn't mean, he was never to bath anywhere else again. Just when he was ready to be healed he had to wash seven times in the Jordan.

This is not rocket science, folks.

Where, in the bible, am I forbidden from preaching from the newspaper? Or from the writings of Confucius? Or from Shakespeare? Or from Greek mythology? Find me one verse in the bible that tells me that I am not to preach from Dr. Seuss. Or find me one that tells me I shouldn't preach from all these new vampire novels that are so popular today. I can't think of one, can you? Why can't I do those things? They aren't forbidden in scripture in the terms you state.

This doesn't hold water either. If you are called to preach the Word of God, what are you preaching? Logic might say you have to be holding a translation of the Bible. But, if you can preach the Word of God out of vampire book, should you hold back? The Word of God is the Word of God. Preach from where you find it. Thing is, vampire book most often don't contain the Word of God, just as a river in Syria, didn't contain the healing that Naaman sought.

Because you are told to do something, doesn't mean you can't have variation on the theme or that you can't bring along a little help. When you preach, do you ever use anecdotes? But aren't you supposed to be preaching the Word of God???

God often gives us the starting point in scripture. He gave us brains and the Holy Sprirt to figure out the variations.

 

[RAdam]

Good grief, people will reach when they have to.

The prophet gave Naaman specific instructions to be healed. You agree that Naaman couldn't have been healed using any other river. God was only going to heal him if he followed the instructions as given. Then you turn around and say, "well we can do whatever we want." What amazes me is you don't see the inconsistency.

If God says here is how to do this, and a person does not do it that way, is God going to accept it? The biblical examples say no.

God told us how to worship Him in preaching, that is by preaching the word. Now you can try to run around that all you'd like, but the fact remains that God told us what to use. God told us what instruments to use to worship Him in song. Why can't we just do it whatever we want to? Well, because God told us the way He wants it done. Now, a person can bring in a piano all they want, but the fact remains that the person is not following God's command. Just as Naaman wouldn't have been healed going to another river, we aren't worshipping God according to His prescribed method if we use other instruments than those He has commanded.

 

[Winman]

The text you quoted is dealing with sin. Revelry in this context is sin. A birthday party for my kids where they are loud and listening to loud music, or music used in worship is not the intention of such "revelry". Remember, the context is sinful actions.

Oh, I agree. Ask any mom if she knows what revelry is. :tongue3:

But even here there are limits. I have never let my kids run around the house screaming and throwing things. Believe me, they try, but I put a stop to that quick. Kids are naturally like this, and I understand that.

But here is what I am talking about, an old video of the Christian group Stryper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8ylsHKIMg

I am sorry, but this is the revelry I am talking about. This is not proper Christian behavior. It is worldly, carnal.

Hey, I like loud music as much as anybody, I have been playing guitar for over 40 years, joined my first band at age 18 and have been in dozens of bands. I know revelry when I see it. This was always a struggle in my Christian life and I had to finally turn from it.

 

[Luke2427]

Good grief, people will reach when they have to.

The prophet gave Naaman specific instructions to be healed. You agree that Naaman couldn't have been healed using any other river. God was only going to heal him if he followed the instructions as given. Then you turn around and say, "well we can do whatever we want." What amazes me is you don't see the inconsistency.

If God says here is how to do this, and a person does not do it that way, is God going to accept it? The biblical examples say no.

God told us how to worship Him in preaching, that is by preaching the word. Now you can try to run around that all you'd like, but the fact remains that God told us what to use. God told us what instruments to use to worship Him in song. Why can't we just do it whatever we want to? Well, because God told us the way He wants it done. Now, a person can bring in a piano all they want, but the fact remains that the person is not following God's command. Just as Naaman wouldn't have been healed going to another river, we aren't worshipping God according to His prescribed method if we use other instruments than those He has commanded.

I agree that Naaman would not have been healed unless he followed the instructions given by Elisha.
Please respond to post # 46.

 

[Luke2427]

Oh, I agree. Ask any mom if she knows what revelry is. :tongue3:

But even here there are limits. I have never let my kids run around the house screaming and throwing things. Believe me, they try, but I put a stop to that quick. Kids are naturally like this, and I understand that.

But here is what I am talking about, an old video of the Christian group Stryper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI8ylsHKIMg

I am sorry, but this is the revelry I am talking about. This is not proper Christian behavior. It is worldly, carnal.

Hey, I like loud music as much as anybody, I have been playing guitar for over 40 years, joined my first band at age 18 and have been in dozens of bands. I know revelry when I see it. This was always a struggle in my Christian life and I had to finally turn from it.

What aspects of something qualify it as revelry in your mind?

 

[Winman]

Well, I believe when people begin to act in excess it becomes sinful. When you begin to behave in a way you would not normally behave.

For instance, if you were standing in front of your co-workers or boss at work, would you jump up and down and bob your head? I know I wouldn't. Would you scream or run around?

Now, as webdog pointed out, circumstances dictate to a degree what is permissible behavior and what is not. I used to watch my son play basketball in High School and I would shout and cheer a bit. But you know what? He once told me I was embarrassing him, so I tried to restrain myself a bit after that.

Here is an old Stryper video playing live. Notice the first thing you see in the crowd is the old devils horns. Yes, many are holding only one finger up, that is ok.

Now notice the crowd flashing the devil's horns at 14 seconds in this video, and a much better view at 1:05.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkwXM7GsDZw

Now, you are talking to a guy who has played in Rock bands since I was a kid. If you try to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about and what this hand symbol stands for, you are just going to make yourself look foolish.

So, do you think we should all be jumping around flashing the devil's horns to worship Jesus? Would you hold up your arms and flash the devil's horns during a hymn at church?

 

[RAdam]

Ok. I'll respond to Post #46. You said that we must have a text that says heart and voice alone. Does scripture ever say that?

Did the prophet tell Naaman that he was to wash in the Jordan river only, or alone? No. He told Naaman this: "Go and wash in Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean." The words only or alone never appear in that text, although it is obvious that every other river in the entire world is being excluded from being used as a means of healing in this case.

What you are doing is placing your view onto the word of God instead of taking it from the word of God.

The only places the NT speaks of worshipping God in song in the NT church it tells us how to do it. It tells us to sing with the spirit and with the understanding, and to use two instruments - the heart and voice. Scripture isn't silent. We aren't free to use whatever instruments we want. God has told us what He wants us to do. He told us the instruments to use. Had the NT remained silent, we'd have liberty to use whatever instruments we wanted. But it isn't silent. God has spoken.

 

[Winman]

Instruments are allowed in church.

Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.
4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.
5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

I don't know about others, but we sometimes sing joyful children's songs in church.

"If you're saved and you know it clap your hands (clap, clap)"

Even the adults participate in this and it is a great time. We are not a bunch of stiffs.

Our pastor plays acoustic guitar in church as do several others. I have seen banjos and horns played in church. There is nothing wrong with this whatsoever.

 

[RAdam]

So you are going to use the OT for your procedure in NT worship? Ok then, when are you going to anoint priests to offer sacrifices, build a tabernacle or temple, start bringing bulls and goats to be killed and their blood sprinkled and poured out in the appropriate places, etc? When are you going to start observing feasts and the Saturday sabbath?

 

[Winman]

So you are going to use the OT for your procedure in NT worship? Ok then, when are you going to anoint priests to offer sacrifices, build a tabernacle or temple, start bringing bulls and goats to be killed and their blood sprinkled and poured out in the appropriate places, etc? When are you going to start observing feasts and the Saturday sabbath?

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Is this verse in the OT or the NT?

Who said this?

 

[RAdam]

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Is this verse in the OT or the NT?

Who said this?

Surely you realize Jesus was speaking symbolically. He didn't mean they literally took out a pipe and blew on it. He is speaking of the preaching of the gospel by John and Himself to the Jews. The Jews rejected one because he didn't eat bread or drink wine and the other for eating bread and drinking wine.

 

[Winman]

Surely you realize Jesus was speaking symbolically. He didn't mean they literally took out a pipe and blew on it. He is speaking of the preaching of the gospel by John and Himself to the Jews. The Jews rejected one because he didn't eat bread or drink wine and the other for eating bread and drinking wine.

Yes, I realize this was symbolic, but there is nothing that says we cannot use instruments in the church to praise God, but there are verses that say we should which I just showed.

We have extremes here. One of you believes we can hold a Rock concert in church, the other believes we are only allowed to sing. The truth is in the middle.

Phil 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.
5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Verse 4 tells us to rejoice. We should be happy and joyful in church, we should sing with joy. But we are to do all things in moderation, if we start jumping around and making fools of ourselves, that is excess.

You two are both extreme. Moderation is the answer.

 

[Tom Bryant]

So you are going to use the OT for your procedure in NT worship? Ok then, when are you going to anoint priests to offer sacrifices, build a tabernacle or temple, start bringing bulls and goats to be killed and their blood sprinkled and poured out in the appropriate places, etc? When are you going to start observing feasts and the Saturday sabbath?

So you're going to use the OT as your example, but the NT only as standard. If the OT was written for our learning (Romans 15:4) why is it so wrong to be as joyful in this time as in the OT?

I can sing the Psalms that talk about using trumpets and cymbals with my heart and voice, but I can't actually use them. Eph 5

You want to use the OT but only for what you can read into it.

 

[webdog]

Surely you realize Jesus was speaking symbolically. He didn't mean they literally took out a pipe and blew on it. He is speaking of the preaching of the gospel by John and Himself to the Jews. The Jews rejected one because he didn't eat bread or drink wine and the other for eating bread and drinking wine.

...and we literally take out our hearts to worship? What should we do with them, put them in the offering plate? I got it...we can bang them on the drums, after all they do make a drum like beat Why can't the "heart" worship using instruments?