fear of the word "Baptist"

[SolaSaint]

After reading the posts in here I see many replies with a negative stance on the name baptist and this is a baptist board? I can understand some with bad experiences from legalistic churches but I feel that fundamental baptist churches have gotten a bad rap from the gosssip circles within Christianity. I feel the name baptist and fundamental have been demonized for I remember when I was a kid even feeling somewhat fearful of the local Baptist Church and I can't remember why other than someone must have painted a bad picture for me about baptists. I was saved in a baptist church some 15 years later--thank God.

I do believe that most of this fear has been drummed up by the seeker sensative crowd who want to make Christianity more appealing. I'm not totally against seeker approaches, but to demonize fundamental biblically sound churches is wrong.

 

[Ruiz]

I'm not talking about new churches, and churches don't change names unless they are trying to attract those repulsed by the name baptist,..IMO

Liberty University took the name "Baptist" out in 1984. Would you say that Falwell was becoming less of abrasive and more "sensitive" to seekers? I doubt a case could be made.

Rather, I would have gotten rid of the name. Why? Personally, I thought I was lying to people about who we were. In the areas I ministered (NY and VA) a Baptist was thought of as a liberal or a Fundamentalist. I am neither. I felt my name was a big lie to what was expected from the culture. I don't fit well in the SBC nor do I fit well in the ABC. Most people equate one of these with "Baptist." In fact, I have been called a heretic by SBCers, hated by the ABCers, and not dispensational enough for the IFBers. In other words, if that is what you expect from a Baptist Church, I would be lying to you if I told you that is what I am.

So, I would get rid of the Baptist name in order to not appear to lie to you.

However, I could see other reasons to jettison the name. First, as a minority it does have some racist connotations in some areas of our country. Second, much of the recent past in Baptist circles are not something to be proud. Finally, the name Baptist has virtually no set meaning except for Baptism.

Thus, I could see why someone would reject the name and want to be proud of their solid doctrine but hate the name. To me, if it would cause one person to stumble by having the name, I would rather get rid of it. Personally, it took me years to get over the bad name of "Baptist", and I still do not like the name.

 

[SolaSaint]

Ruiz, you stated, "much of the recent past in Baptist circles are not something to be proud" Can you please elaborate for I truly don't understand what the beef is against the word baptist. I can see why someone would have negative feelings about Westboro Baptist church or the Dove World outreach church, but not a generalization of the word baptist.

I guess we all have preconcieved feelings about all kinds of names like Pentacostal, baptist, catholic. So what is it that chaps your hide about baptist? We should take a poll:

What do you think when you hear the word "Baptist"?

 

[blackbird]

Ruiz, you stated, "much of the recent past in Baptist circles are not something to be proud" Can you please elaborate for I truly don't understand what the beef is against the word baptist. I can see why someone would have negative feelings about Westboro Baptist church or the Dove World outreach church, but not a generalization of the word baptist.

I guess we all have preconcieved feelings about all kinds of names like Pentacostal, baptist, catholic. So what is it that chaps your hide about baptist? We should take a poll:

What do you think when you hear the word "Baptist"?

I'm with Sola here----I'm not ashamed to call myself a Baptist---a Southern Baptist and don't really understand the gripes about the name

I'm gonna do evangelism like a good Southern Baptist

Folks are gonna be asked to move their letters to my church like good Southern Baptists----if folks move away from my Southern Baptist church to another Southern Baptist church--we're gonna grant that letter like good Southern Baptists

Folks who want to remove the baptist name from their church---are imho paranoid----they're afraid to offend anyone---afraid somebody's gonna be lookiing for a church home and drive by their church and see the name Baptist on the church marque---and keep driving on past to the next available generic/septic church with no offensive name plastered on the marque or on the Sunday bulletin jacket!!

Scenerio---lets just say that I am looking for a church--and I decide to visit your church---and you just removed the name Baptist from all outward identifications so as not to offend anyone---you don't have the name on your "Church Sign"---I roll up in your parking lot and there's a greater there and he hands me a bulletin---again---no name there that even throw a hint at me that your church is Baptist---so far, so good

From all outward appearances----you ain't Baptist---so I decide---Dude!!! I'm gonna check you out!!!!"

I go into a Sunday School class---and there's the literature there---and it ain't from LifeWay----its some generic brand---some "Brand X" literature printed up in someone's backyard garage late on Saturday nite---so I think---"Dude!!! Nothing here indicates this church is Baptist!!" Nobody mentions the latest from Nashville---or gives any indication that "Lottie Moon Offering time is rollling around and getting close and we better start thinking about giving this year!"----noone in the SS class has remotely even heard of the name Liberty University nor can they identify who the former pastor was at Thomas Road in Lynchburg---nor do they remotely know who used to pastor at the Bellvue Baptist Church over in Memphis, TN

The bell rings to dismiss us from SS class to go to praise/preaching time in the worship center and I walk in the front door and look down the middle isle and follow my nose up past the pulpit and choir loft up a few feet----and there I see a BAPTISTRY-----and low and behold----the pastor starts the praise time off with a baptism or two or three

Dude----it don't matter what ain't on your fancy(or tacky) marque----nor on the noticeable absence of SB literature in the SS class----------I walk in your church---and there's a baptistry there---and a preacher there baptising some little kid or some drunk done gone cold turkey and turned to the Lord Jesus----------YOU'RE BAPTIST!!!!! And no matter what you take off----no matter how many times you erase the name BAPTIST from all outward signs----YOU'RE BAPTIST-----and I'm gonna know it!!!!

 

[Bob Alkire]

I thought I was lying to people about who we were. In the areas I ministered (NY and VA) a Baptist was thought of as a liberal or a Fundamentalist. I am neither. I felt my name was a big lie to what was expected from the culture. I don't fit well in the SBC nor do I fit well in the ABC.

To a small point I agree with you. I've ministered in Fl., Ga., SC and Tx. and there wasn't ever a question of what the church was. Something I liked that I picked up from our Free Will Baptist friends, put out front what you are as well as on your literature. We are a Bible teaching fellowship, Non Affiliated Baptist or IFB, Free Grace, Dispensational, we believe in the inspired,inerrant Word of God.

So there was no question of what we believed. I travel a lot and I read the signs out in front of churches to see where I'm going to stop. You are correct that so many churches have out front, blank baptist church, Dr. so and so the pastor and that is about it. You have very little idea of what you are going into.

You are correct again about a lot of folks think bad of Baptist. I was raised in a Presbyterians Church and all I ever heard was how bad the Baptist were, uneducated and poor folks and didn't understand the Bible, they don't dance, they don't drink.

But I would still put up the sign blank Baptist Church and what type it was.

 

[Ruiz]

Sola,

First, you assume that a person must have a reason to take it off rather than they just want to. Having the title "Baptist" in your name is not only not required Biblically, I do not think you would need any reason.

Secondly, you asked what bad things do people associate with the word Baptist? I could list a myriad of things and I hope others could. We have not always had a good name.

1. Perceived racism of Baptists (especially Southern Baptists). As you know, I am a Hispanic and have witnessed racism among Baptists and this was a stumbling block to me when I was a young Christian (and before I was a Christian). While I know not all Baptists are racists, I have had to battle this in churches for years.

2. Their hardshell beliefs and stands. A number of books have been written by many who survived these camps or whose life was severely altered in these camps. There were real people hurt by many in these camps.

3. I think theologically is another reason people would change. As I noted before, I would get rid of the name to avoid having people say we are lying. I am reformed, non-dispensational, and many have perceptions based out of a 20th Century view of Baptists which is not the historic view of Baptists.

4. The liberal Baptists. I do not want to associate with the likes of people who embrace many of these beliefs in the liberal realm.

5. The social stands/political many of these groups take which do not advance the Gospel but is an embarrassment. Do we really want people to associate us with people who say, "Don't vote wrong, vote Right." Or if I am ministering to other Hispanics, do I really want to associate with people who are hardshell in their political immigration policy? Or, do I really want to make a big issue on the Trans-Continental Highway? I am very political, but that has always been completely separate from my church. Yes, we should stand up for clear issues of marriage and for life, but when the Baptist largest organization boycotts Disney, I say, "you gotta be kiddin me."

6. Do I really want people to associate me with all the following people: Jimmy Carter, Tony Campolo, Jerry Falwell, Rick Warren, The American Baptist Churches USA, the Baptist World Alliance, Molly Marshall, Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Fred Phelps, Jesse Jackson, Roy Moore, and more. Not really!

My question to you, tell me what Baptists means that unites everyone? Charles Spurgeon in the late 1800's said that it essentially has become defined of only believer's baptism, nothing more. I agree that in today's realm the word "Baptist" is mainly useless. In the South, it may have a better definition, but what most would equate with "Baptists" in the South (hypocrites who have little more than a social club and political fest) is something I do not want to be associated.

So, why would you want the name Baptist? What real meaning does it have anymore, that is unless you are a theologian and study church history.

 

[Ruiz]

To a small point I agree with you. I've ministered in Fl., Ga., SC and Tx. and there wasn't ever a question of what the church was. Something I liked that I picked up from our Free Will Baptist friends, put out front what you are as well as on your literature. We are a Bible teaching fellowship, Non Affiliated Baptist or IFB, Free Grace, Dispensational, we believe in the inspired,inerrant Word of God.

So there was no question of what we believed. I travel a lot and I read the signs out in front of churches to see where I'm going to stop. You are correct that so many churches have out front, blank baptist church, Dr. so and so the pastor and that is about it. You have very little idea of what you are going into.

You are correct again about a lot of folks think bad of Baptist. I was raised in a Presbyterians Church and all I ever heard was how bad the Baptist were, uneducated and poor folks and didn't understand the Bible, they don't dance, they don't drink.

But I would still put up the sign blank Baptist Church and what type it was.

I still do not see any major benefit. I never would hide my beliefs. I do not think the word "Baptist" necessarily conveys my belief. If I put "X Baptist Church" on a sign and someone came to my church, they would experience a reformed Baptist church and would leave thinking, "this is nothing like most Baptist Churches I belong to." The word "Baptist", in our modern context, could be deceitful.

 

[Ruiz]

Folks are gonna be asked to move their letters to my church like good Southern Baptists----if folks move away from my Southern Baptist church to another Southern Baptist church--we're gonna grant that letter like good Southern Baptists

Folks who want to remove the baptist name from their church---are imho paranoid----they're afraid to offend anyone---afraid somebody's gonna be lookiing for a church home and drive by their church and see the name Baptist on the church marque---and keep driving on past to the next available generic/septic church with no offensive name plastered on the marque or on the Sunday bulletin jacket!!

First, I am not paranoid. Secondly, there are many Southern Baptist Churches I know that do not believe in the Bible and who I think are apostate, embracing modernistic critiques of the Bible. Because they have "Baptist" or "Southern Baptist" in the name does not mean they are Christian.

I do not hid what I believe. I do not, though, want a vague name that means almost nothing more than "Believers Baptism" to confuse people in who I really am. BTW, I have always been against using Lifeway literature in our churches. But that is another discussion. Yes, historically, I would be considered "Baptist" but the name is radically different than what it once meant. I choose not to confuse people with the name.

 

[Ruiz]

Two more things on this issue. First, I am not always against people having the name "Baptist" in their name, but I understand and personally agree with people who take it out. What I am trying to do is to help others see why people would take it out.

Secondly, I am not ashamed of my Doctrine. The Churches I have Pastored have posted online with Founders and 9-Marks. We publicly associate with beliefs we hold as important. Do some get rid of names because they want to make light of Doctrine? Yes! Yet, there are a number of us who would do so because of Doctrine and who are not shy with what we believe and, as a result, we choose to jettison the name Baptist.

 

[Bob Alkire]

I still do not see any major benefit. I never would hide my beliefs. I do not think the word "Baptist" necessarily conveys my belief. If I put "X Baptist Church" on a sign and someone came to my church, they would experience a reformed Baptist church and would leave thinking, "this is nothing like most Baptist Churches I belong to." The word "Baptist", in our modern context, could be deceitful.

If you had reformed on your sign with X Baptist as a few of the reformed do down here, the ones who aren't of that view would know to look else where if they wished, no surprise. Down here most of the non Baptist who are of the reformed view have it out front in big letters, a few of the Baptist have it out their but not most of them in this area which are of the reformed camp.

As well as most Baptist churches in this area have if they are IFB, SBC, Missionary Baptist, Free Will or what ever out front. All of the Methodist, Lutheran, and Presbyterian have which group of their denomination that they belong to out front on their signs.

 

[Ruiz]

Bob,

That is an idea, but when I talk to people I am careful to not say I am "reformed" as that confuses non-theological types. Through the years when I mention "reformed" to people, I have had to give an explanation that seemed to take longer and wrought more confusion. So, unless I am in a situation where I know the person understands what "reformed" means, I tend to just espouse what doctrines we hold to. Once, when witnessing, I used "reformed Baptist" I had someone say, "My dad is reformed Baptist, he is still recovering from the pain he had when in that Baptist Church."

What I find is that the theologically astute tend to research a church before going that they know what you believe before they step in your door (a good reason to have a good website). The non-theologically astute would not understand and be confused by "Reformed." Those who just look for a church to go to that says "Baptist" would not like my church (normally).

So, using "reformed" is not helpful as those most interested usually find us over the internet, using Baptist drives the wrong people, and the non-Christian is confused by it all.

Rather, those most interested in knowing our doctrine can discover what we believe. Those who don't understand these things will be taught and given our doctrine in clear terms. Those who just want a "Baptist Church" can go to another church.

 

[jaigner]

This week I found a very slick and well made political brochure in my mailbox. 2-3 pages long and nowhere in there could I find the party affiliation of the candidate. He claimed to be both conservative and progressive, and I thought well if you're trying to fool people maybe you'll get away with it but you won't get my vote.

When you see a church associated with the SBC you know what you're getting, and to me it means something positive.

To thousands upon thousands of those hurt by the SBC over the years, it's something very negative.

 

[SolaSaint]

To thousands upon thousands of those hurt by the SBC over the years, it's something very negative.

Can you please elaborate, how have thousands been hurt by the SBC?

 

[preachinjesus]

I do believe that most of this fear has been drummed up by the seeker sensative crowd who want to make Christianity more appealing. I'm not totally against seeker approaches, but to demonize fundamental biblically sound churches is wrong.

Well Baptist churches aren't the only biblically sound churches out there. I noticed nobody has really dealt with a couple of points made by myself and other posters. Stuff like:
- Lifeway literature isn't very good and there are other sources of groups literature that are far better at dealing with cretins topics and issues than Lifeway. Ever since Lifeway stopped openly advocating Baptist doctrines and advocating for SBC ministries and angencies their literature has lost a lot of usefulness.

- If we are going to be stingy about requiring the name "baptist" on a sign why not be equally as requiring to mention what precise kind of Baptist a church is: First Southern Resurrgence Supporting Mostly Reformed Baptist Church would be pretty informative.

- What about validating the missiological/ecclesiological decision to remove a denominational moniker from a sign?

- What about the reality that most people, unchurched & dechurched people, searching for a church don't really care about Baptists or Methodist or Prebsyterian and will end up connecting where they are loved and given insights for being more like Jesus?

Just a couple of questions there...

 

[SolaSaint]

I guess I'm just concerned that a few bad apples have ruined the whole basket. I mean that a few legalistic and intollerant churches who are baptist have given all baptist churches a stigma of being that way. I'm a SBCer by heart and am worried the SBC doctrines will be demonized along with their associated name.

 

[Mexdeaf]

As Dr. Bob pointed out, there have always been baptistic churches without the name 'Baptist' on the sign.

How about this unique idea- we do what is right for us and let the other fella take care of business with God in HIS community?

Our church recently changed names, in a manner of speaking. The official name was, and is "Baptist Temple", but we have always been called "BT", so we decided to just change the sign to reflect that- it is now "BT McAllen". Nothing else has changed.

 

[Tater77]

I guess I'm just concerned that a few bad apples have ruined the whole basket. I mean that a few legalistic and intollerant churches who are baptist have given all baptist churches a stigma of being that way. I'm a SBCer by heart and am worried the SBC doctrines will be demonized along with their associated name.

Well Sola, that is exactly what has happened where I live. The huge number of small IFB churches and such have done a lot of damage. Autonomy of the church is our greatest strength and weakness. These smaller churches run unchecked in doctrine and practice and quite frankly border on heresy sometimes.

Ignorance, false doctrine, legalism, etc etc etc have smeared the name of Baptist into the ground here. Many around here associate Baptists with a completely ignorant, intolerant, racist, legalistic, end of the world ranting and raving lunatic that will judge you into the dirt while denying there own sins while they backstab, lie, cheat, steal and do every sort of crooked business in existence while pretending to be holy two faced excuse for a human being.

And people have this image stuck in their heads.

 

[SolaSaint]

Well Sola, that is exactly what has happened where I live. The huge number of small IFB churches and such have done a lot of damage. Autonomy of the church is our greatest strength and weakness. These smaller churches run unchecked in doctrine and practice and quite frankly border on heresy sometimes.

Ignorance, false doctrine, legalism, etc etc etc have smeared the name of Baptist into the ground here. Many around here associate Baptists with a completely ignorant, intolerant, racist, legalistic, end of the world ranting and raving lunatic that will judge you into the dirt while denying there own sins while they backstab, lie, cheat, steal and do every sort of crooked business in existence while pretending to be holy two faced excuse for a human being.

And people have this image stuck in their heads.

REALLY!! I wonder how many communities in American would say the same thing. This really saddens me.

 

[gb93433]

Well Sola, that is exactly what has happened where I live. The huge number of small IFB churches and such have done a lot of damage. Autonomy of the church is our greatest strength and weakness. These smaller churches run unchecked in doctrine and practice and quite frankly border on heresy sometimes.

Ignorance, false doctrine, legalism, etc etc etc have smeared the name of Baptist into the ground here. Many around here associate Baptists with a completely ignorant, intolerant, racist, legalistic, end of the world ranting and raving lunatic that will judge you into the dirt while denying there own sins while they backstab, lie, cheat, steal and do every sort of crooked business in existence while pretending to be holy two faced excuse for a human being.

Unfortunately those Baptists have baptized real Baptist doctrine and told you that you are all wet by their doctrine and practice.

 

[InTheLight]

For years I attended a General Baptist Conference church here in the Twin Cities, MN. I would guess there were about 200 members and about 300 people in Sunday service attendance. I was never a member.

About 3 years ago they got a new pastor. At the church's Q&A interview session someone asked point blank, "Will you remove the word Baptist from our church name?" The answer: "I would never do that. This church has an 50 year identity as a Baptist church."

Within weeks the hymnals were gone, the choir was gone, the sanctuary redecorated, the wonderful pipe organ no longer being used. Instead we got guitar and drum music (which I don't necessarily oppose), generic repetitious worship songs, watered down sermons (i.e. sin is now called a "soul sickness", the word repent is no longer heard, etc.), and church leaders in jeans and (sometimes) tee-shirts, and (sometimes) bare-foot.

We left within a year of the change over. In that last year they baptized two people. In previous years there had been at least 10 per year. I heard recently that they changed the name of their church, removing the Baptist name, and adopting a generic non-descript name. This same person informed me that they now have about 150 people in Sunday service, that many old-time members have left, that they attract lots of new people who attend for 2 or 3 weeks then are not seen again.

The reason for the name change? According to their website they claim that it puts their missionaries at risk and causes delays in getting passports and visas processed. (I was not aware that your religious affiliation was part of your passport, but I could be mistaken.) Also they say the word baptist is viewed negatively by the popular culture. The pastor says his wife HAS FRIENDS THAT WOULD NEVER ATTEND A BAPTIST CHURCH. I find that incredible, bordering on falsehood.


So much for the 50 year rich tradition of being known as a Baptist church.