freeatlast
New Member
I think that the problem here is in using the term glorified for the body that the un-saved receive. Yes they get a new body, one that can never perish, but glorified is the wrong designation for it.
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Everyone will get a glorified body
- Thread starter stilllearning
- Start date
I think that the problem here is in using the term glorified for the body that the un-saved receive. Yes they get a new body, one that can never perish, but glorified is the wrong designation for it.
:laugh: All Cal's say that!
I know Calvinism teaches that because I have been reading it by Calvinist posters on this board for the last 6 years.
To get back to the OP-
It has always been my understanding that BOTH sinners and saints will get 'resurrection bodies'. Now whether 'resurrection' = 'glorified' or not, I do not know. I would assume that there will be a difference between a saint's new body and a sinner's- but I don't know of any Bible verses that would indicate that off the top of my head.
However I am sure that someone on here will have all the answers- or at least say that they do. :smilewinkgrin:
It has always been my understanding that BOTH sinners and saints will get 'resurrection bodies'. Now whether 'resurrection' = 'glorified' or not, I do not know. I would assume that there will be a difference between a saint's new body and a sinner's- but I don't know of any Bible verses that would indicate that off the top of my head.
However I am sure that someone on here will have all the answers- or at least say that they do. :smilewinkgrin:
stilllearning
Active Member
Lastday
Stilllearning:
Your very URL reminds me that God alone has all the answers. He has revealed that those "nations that are 'saved' and enter the gates of
the New Jerusalem from earth at any time, whether day or night, will need to be 'healed by eating the leaves of the Tree of Life' forever". Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14. They will not have glorified bodies since that same condition applies during the age to come when a child may
die (Isa.65:20) at the age of 100!
Of the nations left when Christ comes and "all men know the Lord from the least to the greatest, they must come annually to worship the
Lord and eat of the leaves of the Tree of Life while He rules over the nations from Jerusalem". Zech.14:16; Ezek.47:12. Jesus will "separate the sheep and goats based on their treatment of the Jews during the Millennium. In eternity, "the Kings of the saved (sheep) nations (after separation from the goats) will "bring their honor and glory into New Jerusalem to continue to "eat of the leaves of the Tree of Life in order to be healed"!! Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
It cannot be true, during this present age, that "all men know the Lord from
the least to the greatest". The nations of unbelieving Israel and Judah must first meet their Messiah and be convinced the "Old Covenant is
no longer in effect". That alone is when "all men will know the Lord from the least to the greatest"!!! Heb.8:8-13 [Note comment in verse 13].
There is a possibility that all children under the age of accountability, even
babies who are aborted, will be raised up to make their choice to worship God and "inherit eternal life"! All children have their own set of fingerprints... forever!! They may not be glorified like us; but yet be among the "nations saved and separated from the goats" at the end of the "Age to Come"!!!
Mel Miller
Stilllearning:
Your very URL reminds me that God alone has all the answers. He has revealed that those "nations that are 'saved' and enter the gates of
the New Jerusalem from earth at any time, whether day or night, will need to be 'healed by eating the leaves of the Tree of Life' forever". Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14. They will not have glorified bodies since that same condition applies during the age to come when a child may
die (Isa.65:20) at the age of 100!
Of the nations left when Christ comes and "all men know the Lord from the least to the greatest, they must come annually to worship the
Lord and eat of the leaves of the Tree of Life while He rules over the nations from Jerusalem". Zech.14:16; Ezek.47:12. Jesus will "separate the sheep and goats based on their treatment of the Jews during the Millennium. In eternity, "the Kings of the saved (sheep) nations (after separation from the goats) will "bring their honor and glory into New Jerusalem to continue to "eat of the leaves of the Tree of Life in order to be healed"!! Rev.21:24-26; Rev.22:2,14.
It cannot be true, during this present age, that "all men know the Lord from
the least to the greatest". The nations of unbelieving Israel and Judah must first meet their Messiah and be convinced the "Old Covenant is
no longer in effect". That alone is when "all men will know the Lord from the least to the greatest"!!! Heb.8:8-13 [Note comment in verse 13].
There is a possibility that all children under the age of accountability, even
babies who are aborted, will be raised up to make their choice to worship God and "inherit eternal life"! All children have their own set of fingerprints... forever!! They may not be glorified like us; but yet be among the "nations saved and separated from the goats" at the end of the "Age to Come"!!!
Mel Miller
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glfredrick
New Member
No. You are placing words into my argument. God may have chosen them, that is His business and He doesn't really let us know who He chooses or doesn't choose. We do know that God elects people to salvation -- that is very clear in Scripture. What we do not know (before we see fruitful evidence) is whom it is that He elects. In the case of infants, we cannot see fruitful evidences for all the same reasons you are using to argue that God will bring all of them to Himself -- they cannot speak for themselves.
You seem to be coming at the gospel from an Arminian position, and that is fine. Many do. But I think that you have a bigger problem with the salvation of infants that I do coming from a more Calvinistic perspective. In the Arminian position, one must come to God with one's faith. Personal actions (which you argue children do not have) are the driving force behind salvation. You make a special case for children because they cannot be in "unbelief" but to that I would suggest that neither then can they "believe." If they cannot do one, they cannot do the other, which means that they are still hopelessly trapped in their original death-causing sin.
Perhaps at that point, God's merciful election is the more sure and gracious position, even though on its face it may seem more "out of our hands." Salvation IS out of our hands. We merely accept the free gifts given by an always good God.
As I said above, I am not immune to this argument. I have lost one son shortly after childbirth and my oldest son has just been diagnosed with PLS and likely will not be able to live out a full life. I care very deeply about what God may or may not do and I have dedicated my life to the gospel for many reasons, some of which surround my own ignorance at the time of the death of my second son earlier.
I am a North American missionary and pastor because God has called me (and my heart totally agrees!) to tell others about the good news of Jesus Christ. I do so because I am assured by God in His Word that wherever I go with the gospel people will respond. If I had to depend on man's arguments, that would be a most miserable task, but I see people who, like me, are drawn by God and who are Spirit-led into a salvific experience.
Simply saying something like, "This is just one of the problems with the Calvinist position. You have babies going to hell because they were not "chosen." is cold-hearted and does not match the Scriptures in any way, shape, or form. Nothing could be further from the truth -- of the Calvinist position or of the Bible.
freeatlast
New Member
Amy your compassion is admirable but your theology on this is not supported by scripture. Yes we might form an opinion on the issue based on certain verses, but to claim dogmatically that all babies that die go to be with the Lord is simply a false representation of scripture. Again I am not saying the belief is incorrect. I am only saying it is not supported by scripture in any clear manner. It is certainly a possibility but if it is we do not have any clear information that supports it or explains how the blood of Christ is ends up covering them without faith.
Would you agree that some babies go to heaven when they die? If so, why? Why does one go to heaven and another does not? The Calvinist will say because one was chosen and one was not. Is that your position?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
I am pretty sure I have shown you a thorough treatment of infant salvation in the past Amy. It is actually the Calvinist position alone that can account for any infant being saved at all. It is the the neo-Arminian view that has the issue.
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
While it is true that some Calvinists I have known usually take the position that its possible, but they don't know, this is NOT the historic Calvinist position...as best as I can tell.
If someone ask me, as a Calvinist, do I believe some babies suffer eternal damnation, my answer is no. If I am asking if I believe all children who die infancy (including older people who are infants in mind, i.e. mental retardation) go to heaven, my answer is yes.
If they ask why I believe they all go to heaven, my answer is that I believe they are elect, the chosen of God.
We all must admit that the Scripture doesn't overtly teach or answer this question, but is sufficient for us to give an answer. And I prefer to give the answer in the affirmative based 100% in the goodness and mercy of God's grace than in the child's percieve innocence or ability.
I don't know anything about the neo-Arminian view, but I do know that I have read many, many posts by self proclaimed Calvinists on this board who either do not know what happens to infants when they die, believe only those who are chosen go to heaven and the rest to hell and there have even been those who believe all infants go to hell. It is well documented on the board in the archives.
My post was directed to freeatlast who apparently believes some go to heaven and some to hell. He had an issue with my belief that all babies go to heaven.
JohnHunton
New Member
Then what do we do with this
OH yes God sends them to Hell because they are unbelievers
Matthew 13:40-42 (King James Version)
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
I also believe that everyone will receive a glorified body this fleshly body will burn and the next wont. But just imagine a fire designed to torment the Devil and his Angels and that burns a soul with out burning it up Brethren if that doesn't make you want to warn the Lost check your Salvation it scares my to no end that I have friends family neighbors and people at wal mart going there If they dont flee the wrath to come and God is a God OF WRATH
OH yes God sends them to Hell because they are unbelievers
Matthew 13:40-42 (King James Version)
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth
I also believe that everyone will receive a glorified body this fleshly body will burn and the next wont. But just imagine a fire designed to torment the Devil and his Angels and that burns a soul with out burning it up Brethren if that doesn't make you want to warn the Lost check your Salvation it scares my to no end that I have friends family neighbors and people at wal mart going there If they dont flee the wrath to come and God is a God OF WRATH
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I am always amazed at how Calvinists often say the exact opposite of what the scriptures say.
Matt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said unless we "become as little children" we shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said "for of such is the kingdom of heaven" referring to little children.
Amazing, Calvinsim turns scripture on it's head and reverses it.
It is not what some man may believe, but what God says. From what seed did the child come from? One that is saved, or one that is not saved?
JohnHunton
New Member
Sorry not a Calvinist
Im not a Calvinist at all but explain this scripture is what is written true or false by the way this is the words of Jesus and not John Calvin further more John Calvin although was a great reformer was little two sided and I also believe Jesus died for the whole world and not just for those that would believe careful when you make accusations
Im not a Calvinist at all but explain this scripture is what is written true or false by the way this is the words of Jesus and not John Calvin further more John Calvin although was a great reformer was little two sided and I also believe Jesus died for the whole world and not just for those that would believe careful when you make accusations
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God loved the world, but never says all, 90 percent, or any percent would be saved. Jesus uses the word many - Matthew 20:28
You forgot about "whosoever". That is who out of everyone.
Bobby Hamilton
New Member
Are you trying to add to "Many" or just throwing that out there as well?
Actually, Scripture states the "whosoever"s are few, the few ones who follow the narrow path.
John's use of world and whole world means just that.
Whosoever = who out of everyone.