What can unregenerate man do?

[Luke2427]

Luke,

You are incorrect in your assertion of "either/or" argument relative to Calvinism/Arminianism.


Molinism holds to a strong notion of God’s control and an equally firm affirmation of human freedom. In other words Molinism simultaneously holds to a Calvinistic view of a comprehensive divine sovereignty and to a version of free will (called libertarianism) generally associated with Arminianism. As Doug Geivett argues, the fact that Molinism is the one proposal that tries to hold simultaneously to both is a point in its favor, since both “are prima facie true.”

Molinism teaches that God exercises his sovereignty primarily through his omniscience, and that he infallibly knows what free creatures would do in any given situation. In this way God sovereignly controls all things while humans are also genuinely free. God is able to accomplish his will through the use of what Molinists label his middle knowledge. We will look at the Molinist model of God’s knowledge and providence in the next chapter and in the chapter on sovereign election.

So Molinism formulates a radical “compatibilism,”—a “Calvinist” view of divine sovereignty and an “Arminian” view of human freedom—and for this reason is often attacked from both sides of the aisle. Calvinists such as Bruce Ware and Richard Muller consider Molinism to be a type of Arminianism, while Roger Olsen and Robert Picirilli (both card-carrying Arminians) reject Molinism for being too Calvinistic. However, Molinism is attractive to many leading Christian philosophers of our day, such as Alvin Plantinga, Thomas Flint, and William Lane Craig. One of the main reasons is that it demonstrates it is logically possible to affirm divine sovereignty and human freedom in a consistent manner. Even open theist William Hasker, who is no friend to Molinism, admits, “If you are committed to a ‘strong’ view of providence, according to which, down to the smallest detail, ‘things are as they are because God knowingly decided to create such a world,’ and yet you also wish to maintain a libertarian conception of free will—if this is what you want, then Molinism is the only game in town.”

As a matter of fact, that is exactly what I want because I believe Molinism is faithful to the biblical witness. The Molinist model is the only game in town for anyone who wishes to affirm a high view of God’s sovereignty while holding to a genuine definition of human choice, freedom and responsibility. William Lane Craig goes so far as to describe the Molinist notion of middle knowledge as “the single most fruitful theological concept I have ever encountered.” When we apply Molinism to the vexing questions of predestination and election, the reasons for his enthusiasm become evident.

Walls and Dongell: "...at the end of the day, Molinism is not a compromise position that Calvinists can embrace; rather, it is a variation on Arminianism. As Muller has recognized, if Molinism were accepted as a middle ground position, 'the Reformed would need to concede virtually all of the issues in debate and adopt an Arminian perspective.'

Molinism is just a moderate form of Arminianism. It is like a lady saying, "I am not pregnant. I am just in my first trimester."

Regardless, this is not the core of the thread. If you guys do not wish to be identified as Arminians, I will not label you as such on this thread.

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

I know you have been asking a lot of "deep" questions and that's a good thing. It causes us to dig a lot deeper into His word, to prove our beliefs. Furthermore, I really appreciate the kindness you have extended to those of us who are of the opposing view on this matter.

Now getting back to your original question in the first post of this thread. Instead of "John", I am going to insert "Willis", since I can only speak specificially(sp?) about what God did for me ! The reason why "Willis" is going to heaven is this. God came to me and showed me in my lost condition. In that lost condition, I could do nothing to save myself. A Godly sorrow set up in my life(2Cor. 7:10) and I began to cry out for His help. In this Godly sorrow, it led me down a road of repentance. While on this road, I thought if I'd do this, He would save me, and I was still lost. I thought that if I then would do this, He would save me...and I was still lost, destined for a devil's hell if God didn't save me. Then about 1:30 AM on May 24, 2007 in the hospital lab at the former place I worked full time, I laid it ALL down at Jesus' feet, and He did the rest. This is why "Willis/John" are going to heaven. We took Jesus at His word, and He saved our dead souls! We chose to believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him!!

The reason why Jack died lost was because he failed to repent. Why did he fail to repent? He loved darkness rather than light. Why did he love darkness rather than light? It was his pride in that he wanted to do things his way and not God's. Why did he choose to do things his way and not God's? Who knows? This topic could go in circles for days and not get anywhere, I suppose. But the end result is this, and all would have to concur with this statement. Those that truly believe from the heart will go to heaven, and those who fail to believe, will go to the lake of fire.


i am I am's!!

Willis

Thank you Willis for this good response. I particularly appreciate the last sentence in bold. This is common ground for all of us who are in the family of God, isn't it? This is something we can all agree on regardless of our theological stripe. Those that truly believe from the heart will go to heaven, and those who fail to believe, will go to the lake of fire.

Very warm testimony as well. I just woke up and started my day and reading your testimony was a good way to start it! Thanks!

And you are right that it does seem that we could go in circles on this forever. I'll try to prevent that in this post.

First of all, though you said, "Why did [Jack] choose to do things his way and not God's? Who knows?", you indicated that you do know why when you said, "Why did he fail to repent? He loved darkness rather than light. Why did he love darkness rather than light? It was his pride in that he wanted to do things his way and not God's."

This is why EVERYONE refuses to repent isn't it? Romans 8 reminds us, "The carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither can it be."

So, was this not true of John/Willis? Did Willis not love darkness rather than light? Was their not pride in Willis' heart? Of course there was, right? It is true for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, isn't it?

So what stopped Willis from loving darkness rather than light?
What humbled Willis so that he was made willing to do things God's way?

I think we know the answer to this. It was God, wasn't it?

God changed your heart, didn't he? God changed your appetite from only loving darkness to loving light.
God overcame Willis at 1:30 in the morning in that hospital lab on May 24, 2007 by His grace.
God melted your heart of stone, didn't he?

God did it all or otherwise Willis would still love darkness rather than light and still be in proud rebellion against God.

If it were up to Willis, Willis would still be lost. Because Willis loved darkness rather than light until God overcame Willis with grace.

Now, why does Jack go to hell? Is he less depraved than Willis? No. We are all born totally depraved aren't we? We are all born with a heart that loves darkness rather than light of which Jesus said "EVERY ONE that doeth evil hateth the light NEITHER COMETH TO IT..."

No one, not Willis, not John and not Luke comes to the light as they are, do they? God must overcome them with his grace, his grace that is so amazing, so tender, so warm, so infinite that it is absolutely irresistible!

Willis would not choose God, the Bible says so, doesn't it? Not until Willis was overcome with grace.

Now if Jack goes to hell either Willis can say- "There was something in me that made me better than you Jack. Something that made me smarter or holier in my lost state than you Jack. I chose God and you didn't because you are not as good and wise as me."

Or...

You can say, "Jack, I would be in hell with you because I am no better than you are, no smarter, no less depraved- I would be in hell with you forever, were it not for GRACE!"

These are your only two options, Brother Willis.

Why do men go to heaven? Because they are smarter and wiser than their peers? Or because of God's grace?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've waded through quite a bit of this thread, but haven't chased down every post or every reference to see if they are all valid. That takes a LOT of time, and unfortunately, for me at least, time is not available right now in those quantities.

In any case, an observation that I've made is this:

God is either sovereign in all things, including His ability to place people in the time, place, situation, frame of mind, circumstance, etc., that they need to be placed into in order to make the gospel real and viable, or He is not.

When I start reading all the postings about human free will, I begin to realize the true depths of our sin of rebellion against God. From the very first words of Scripture until the Book is closed in Revelation, God, God's kingdom, God's right and authority to rule over us as King of all kings, God's transcendence, broken only by God's provision, Immanuel -- God with us -- and God's mercy, grace, and providence, all point to God as preeminent in all things, and that includes our ability to first, know Him, second, be known by Him, and third, be saved by re-birth into a new creation -- of course -- by Him.

We rebel against God by placing SOMETHING or SOMEONE in a position above God, and that is exactly what we do when we claim freedom of human will over and above God's sovereignty.

As I've said before, whatever it is that is above God ought to be what we bow down to worship. If that is man, and man can trump God's sovereignty and kingship (kingdom) then by all means, feel free to do just what the adversary asked -- partake of the "fruit" and "be like God, knowing good and evil..." Bow down to man and call him or her god.

"But as for me and my household, I will serve the Lord..." the God I see all over Scripture is the God who elects, who saves, and who, at the end of the day -- no matter what puny humans think, believe, write, or do -- is GOD... King, Lord, worthy of ALL worship, sovereign, and yes, able to manipulate time, space, and will to bring those who He predestined to grace.

Argue all you like about the power of human free will. In fact, carry your argument right to the Cross and tell Jesus to come down, for He doesn't have to die for your sin unless you want Him to. In essence, that is exactly what is being said by those who "decide" if or when they wish to be saved. They will decide if Jesus hangs on the Cross or not. Right...

What I read in Scripture is that we didn't have the power to tell Jesus anything. "I lay My life down. No one takes it from me..." Neither do we have the power to dictate to Almighty God whether or not we will be saved. "But He will not drag anyone kicking and screaming into heaven..." Exactly correct. Like myself, God will convince, convict, and ultimately convert those who were once enemies and thought they had choice in the matter. I was an avowed enemy of God. I cursed God and died. I told God to get the hell out of my life, and then proceeded to live like the hell I asked for. After seven years of, first, running from God, then second, warring against God, and finally, giving up all belief in God and becoming an atheist, God -- oh praise God! -- came looking for me, and won me over until I loved Him and begged to be His. Oh, how good it was to finally surrender to my Lord and bow down before Him to call Him alone King!

From the tenor of the posts above, there are still a bunch of people who have not done that yet, nor can they, as long as they still hold to some other idolatrous power greater than what they attribute to God -- namely, themselves. May the God of all grace have mercy on their souls.

Brother, you are an inspiration to me....I have gone a very similar path & finally like Job had to face the fact that it is He who is Lord & not I. you have truly made my day ....thank you for your testimony.

 

[webdog]

Because you are decidedly not Calvinists. Just as I would say to a woman who is with child- you are pregnant. Pregnant is the word that describes someone who has a baby in her womb.

Arminian is what you call a Christian who does not believe that God determines who goes to heaven and hell. It's really that simple.

Now a pregnant woman may not like the term "pregnant"- but it doesn't matter what she likes- that's what she is. Facts are facts.

You don't like the term- I will gladly call you by another title if you can come up with one that identifies someone who believes whatever it is that you believe (which I assume is some mysterious position between God determining who goes to heaven and man determining who goes to heaven).

Complete false dichotomy, of course I believe God determines who goes to Heaven...but I don't adhere to the program you do outlining it. A 4 point calvinist is not a calvinist, he's confused as all 5 points stand and fall together like a house of cards, as adherence to all 5 points is what makes one a calvinist. Arminians believe you can lose your salvation. I do not. Arminians belive God looked through the corridors of time to see who would believe. I do not.

You also hold to Augustinian Original Sin as do catholics. According to your logic that makes you a Roman Catholic. On this board, and in this debate, I prefer to just be referred to as a "non cal" as that encompasses pretty much everything pertaining to soteriology.

Snippy. This does not address the argument but the arguer. This makes debates unnecessarily heated, doesn't it?

I wasn't being snippy, I was being honest. If you think everyone falls into either a calvinist or arminian you do have much to learn.

There is no doubt about this. But since you cannot answer my arguments as is clear from this thread- I am compelled to go to another educator other than yourself.

Do what you wish, but don't tell me your arguments have not been answered. They have, you just don't like the answers as is evidenced by you calling out Allan on not answering your points when he did just that...line by line. Are you here to learn, want to hear only what you believe, or here to teach?

I cannot see unicorns either. This of course is because they don't exist.

How do you know, you cannot prove a negative

There is no middle ground on this issue. You either believe God chooses or man chooses. Explain to me a middle ground.

Absolutely there is a middle ground my Roman Catholic friend :laugh:

This has most certainly not been expressed much less explained.

Opinions are like nostrils.

Yes, this is the classic Arminian position. This is verbatum what Jacobus Arminius believed.

So? I'm sure we all hold common ground on particular issues without being lumped into the whole of the position. I bet Arminius believed in the Trinity and the virgin birth as well. If you do, does that make you an Arminian? Can't you see how silly that line of thinking really is? Enough of this, stop labeling people what YOU want them to be called, please.

 

[Luke2427]

Complete false dichotomy, of course I believe God determines who goes to Heaven...but I don't adhere to the program you do outlining it. A 4 point calvinist is not a calvinist, he's confused as all 5 points stand and fall together like a house of cards, as adherence to all 5 points is what makes one a calvinist. Arminians believe you can lose your salvation. I do not. Arminians belive God looked through the corridors of time to see who would believe. I do not.

You also hold to Augustinian Original Sin as do catholics. According to your logic that makes you a Roman Catholic. On this board, and in this debate, I prefer to just be referred to as a "non cal" as that encompasses pretty much everything pertaining to soteriology.
I wasn't being snippy, I was being honest. If you think everyone falls into either a calvinist or arminian you do have much to learn.
Do what you wish, but don't tell me your arguments have not been answered. They have, you just don't like the answers as is evidenced by you calling out Allan on not answering your points when he did just that...line by line. Are you here to learn, want to hear only what you believe, or here to teach?
How do you know, you cannot prove a negative
Absolutely there is a middle ground my Roman Catholic friend :laugh:
Opinions are like nostrils.
So? I'm sure we all hold common ground on particular issues without being lumped into the whole of the position. I bet Arminius believed in the Trinity and the virgin birth as well. If you do, does that make you an Arminian? Can't you see how silly that line of thinking really is? Enough of this, stop labeling people what YOU want them to be called, please.

OK, Webdog, I won't call you an Arminian since you don't like the term.

But, let's be honest, you've not answered the arguments. You've yet to respond to post 22.

 

[webdog]

God is either sovereign in all things, including His ability to place people in the time, place, situation, frame of mind, circumstance, etc., that they need to be placed into in order to make the gospel real and viable, or He is not.

You pull one aspect of what sovereignty may entail and use it as your blanket definition of the term. Of course God can do that, and has in many instances, but sovereign means in control not controlling. Allowing a human being "free will" does not violate His sovereignty one bit.

We rebel against God by placing SOMETHING or SOMEONE in a position above God, and that is exactly what we do when we claim freedom of human will over and above God's sovereignty.

Non sequitur. First part is correct, but does NOT mean this is what someone does who fails to see your faulty understanding of sovereignty.

Argue all you like about the power of human free will. In fact, carry your argument right to the Cross and tell Jesus to come down, for He doesn't have to die for your sin unless you want Him to. In essence, that is exactly what is being said by those who "decide" if or when they wish to be saved. They will decide if Jesus hangs on the Cross or not. Right...

What garbage...not worthy of the time.

From the tenor of the posts above, there are still a bunch of people who have not done that yet, nor can they, as long as they still hold to some other idolatrous power greater than what they attribute to God -- namely, themselves. May the God of all grace have mercy on their souls.

Strange, because that is the exact thought from reading your post. You have done the very thing you accuse us of by telling God how His sovereignty must be in order to fit you nice little theological box. Quite arrogant and prideful...not to mention YOU will also stand before God one day to give an account. Remember, whey you point your finger there are 3 more pointing back at you.

 

[webdog]

OK, Webdog, I won't call you an Arminian since you don't like the term.

But, let's be honest, you've not answered the arguments. You've yet to respond to post 22.

I just went back and saw that. I think Amy and Winman did a good job addressing that and there is not much more I could add to. We just disagree on the actions of the plower.

 

[Luke2427]

Complete false dichotomy, of course I believe God determines who goes to Heaven...

Yea, but you don't think it through to its logical conclusion.

If God determines, Calvinism is true.

If man determines, Arminianism, or whatever you want to call yourself, is true.

Who goes to heaven? God determines
Who goes to hell? God determines

That is Calvinism. It is the very essence of it.

But what you really believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is that man determines his own eternal destiny and God grants what man determines.

Why does John go to heaven? Because JOHN... (chose, believed, repented,etc...)

Why does Jack go to hell? Because JACK...

But the Calvinist doesn't answer the same way because the Calvinist doesn't just SAY he believes that God determines- he actually believes it.

Why does John go to heaven? Because GOD... (predestined, called, elected)

Why does Jack go to hell? Because GOD...


This is the great theological and philosophical chasm between Calvinists and Arminians (and those other people who believe what Arminians believe but hate the term:smilewinkgrin.

The title you put behind the "Because" in the above statements- That's who you REALLY believe determines destiny.

 

[glfredrick]

glfrederick

I am daily in need of God's grace, love, mercy and forgiveness for my sin, iniquity and transgression. But my friend, it has absolutely nothing to do with your prideful pontificating about how everyone's view about God is wrong because it does not match yours.

It is not "mine." I am not God. :BangHead:

 

[Luke2427]

I just went back and saw that. I think Amy and Winman did a good job addressing that and there is not much more I could add to. We just disagree on the actions of the plower.

Honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong (it wouldn't be the first time for sure), but I answered their responses in such a way that they could not respond any further.

The Scripture says the "plowing of the wicked is sin". Is plowing sin? No. But it is when the wicked do it. Why? Because EVERYTHING they do is sin.

I've given a dozen Scriptures that prove that. Have you read them? If so, will you not respond to them?

Because if everything the wicked do is sin as the Bible teaches, then they cannot come to Christ in their natural state.

Something must happen to them. It is called regeneration, and as Allan has admitted, it is one of the major themes of the Bible.

Once regenerated, they are not "natural". Now they can come. But not before regeneration because the "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God..."

C'mon, Webdog, its time for you to admit that you do not have an answer for this.

 

[Amy.G]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?



The Lord Himself said that evil men give good gifts to their children. That should answer your question right there. The Jews in this passage were unregenerate and did good things.

 

[webdog]

Yea, but you don't think it through to its logical conclusion.

If God determines, Calvinism is true.

If man determines, Arminianism, or whatever you want to call yourself, is true.

Who goes to heaven? God determines
Who goes to hell? God determines

That is Calvinism. It is the very essence of it.

But what you really believe, correct me if I'm wrong, is that man determines his own eternal destiny and God grants what man determines.

Why does John go to heaven? Because JOHN... (chose, believed, repented,etc...)

Why does Jack go to hell? Because JACK...

But the Calvinist doesn't answer the same way because the Calvinist doesn't just SAY he believes that God determines- he actually believes it.

Why does John go to heaven? Because GOD... (predestined, called, elected)

Why does Jack go to hell? Because GOD...


This is the great theological and philosophical chasm between Calvinists and Arminians (and those other people who believe what Arminians believe but hate the term:smilewinkgrin.

The title you put behind the "Because" in the above statements- That's who you REALLY believe determines destiny.

Just had a whole post I lost :BangHead:

In a nutshell...I have thought it through to it's logical conclusion, and that lead me away from that doctrine God has decreed those who put their faith in Christ will be saved, those who do not will die in their sin...He is in control of who is saved and who is not (sovereign). Free will does not violate this, in fact it allows God ultimately to be sovereign as I do not tell Him how He needs to work in order for Him to be sovereign. If you really follow the logical conclusion, it is your camp that actually limits His sovereignty.

 

[Luke2427]

Just had a whole post I lost :BangHead:

In a nutshell...I have thought it through to it's logical conclusion, and that lead me away from that doctrine God has decreed those who put their faith in Christ will be saved,

But that's as far as you have thought it through.

The whole point of the John and Jack thing is to get you to think it through one or two more logical and biblical steps.

WHO PUTS FAITH IN CHRIST????

 

[Jerome]

"It will be much better for us to do the work of him that sent us, than to be judging divine providence, or our fellow men. It is ours, not to speculate, but to perform acts of mercy and love, according to the tenor of the gospel. Let us then be less inquisitive and more practical, less for cracking doctrinal nuts, and more for bringing forth the bread of life to the starving multitudes." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Spur"

 

[webdog]

Honestly, and correct me if I'm wrong (it wouldn't be the first time for sure), but I answered their responses in such a way that they could not respond any further.

The Scripture says the "plowing of the wicked is sin". Is plowing sin? No. But it is when the wicked do it. Why? Because EVERYTHING they do is sin.

I've given a dozen Scriptures that prove that. Have you read them? If so, will you not respond to them?

Because if everything the wicked do is sin as the Bible teaches, then they cannot come to Christ in their natural state.

Something must happen to them. It is called regeneration, and as Allan has admitted, it is one of the major themes of the Bible.

Once regenerated, they are not "natural". Now they can come. But not before regeneration because the "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God..."

C'mon, Webdog, its time for you to admit that you do not have an answer for this.

You're right...I just don't have an answer for it :laugh:

Jesus said wicked people can do good things, I'll take Him at His word :thumbs:

...and more Jesus...

Luke 11 42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

(God was telling them to practice sin?!?)

Matthew 23 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Like I said, you believe EVERY action of the unregenerate is sin. I don't believe that is what Scripture teaches, so we are at an impasse on this matter.

 

[Luke2427]

Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?



The Lord Himself said that evil men give good gifts to their children. That should answer your question right there. The Jews in this passage were unregenerate and did good things.

This is a very good verse to apply to this discussion.

I think the idea of the passage is that even evil people look out for their own. How much more does God?!

See if I address this to your satisfaction in post 15.

The gifts are good. The giving itself is evil- because to the corrupt and undefiled NOTHING IS PURE.

Cake is good, but if I bake it and give it to you with impure motives, the gift is good- the giving is evil because it comes from heart driven by ulterior, corrupt motives

 

[webdog]

But that's as far as you have thought it through.

The whole point of the John and Jack thing is to get you to think it through one or two more logical and biblical steps.

WHO PUTS FAITH IN CHRIST????

First, I noticed on your posts when you quote someone it becomes garbled and sometimes is not the quote of the person in the box. Are you highlighting the text you want to quote and hitting the quote icon? You do not have to type

.

Second, I've thought it through completely, thank you. Regardless if man has faith or God give man faith to use...who is putting faith in Christ? The person who NEEDS to! God doesn't need to have faith in Himself.

 

[Luke2427]

You're right...I just don't have an answer for it :laugh:

Jesus said wicked people can do good things, I'll take Him at His word :thumbs:

...and more Jesus...

Luke 11 42 “Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.

(God was telling them to practice sin?!?)

Matthew 23 23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Like I said, you believe EVERY action of the unregenerate is sin. I don't believe that is what Scripture teaches, so we are at an impasse on this matter.

We really are not an impasse on this particular matter. The Bible is extraordinarily clear that EVERYTHING the unregenerate does is sin. To the corrupt and undefiled, NOTHING is pure. I have provided a dozen passages that unmistakably prove that this is so.

This is only an impasse if you will not see the facts.

As for Jesus saying, "Ye ought to have done the latter...", I've addressed this as well in this debate.

Men ought to do what they cannot do. Ought means to owe. Men owe a debt they cannot pay.

Men ought to live for Christ- but they cannot; not without regeneration.

 

[Luke2427]

First, I noticed on your posts when you quote someone it becomes garbled and sometimes is not the quote of the person in the box. Are you highlighting the text you want to quote and hitting the quote icon? You do not have to type [/QUOTE]

I don't type it. I highlight phrases and then click the quote box. I may do it wrong sometimes.

Second, I've thought it through completely, thank you. Regardless if man has faith or God give man faith to use...who is putting faith in Christ? The person who NEEDS to! God doesn't need to have faith in Himself.

Then it is your unmitigated belief that man determines and God grants what man determines, right?

The person IS doing it- yes. But where you've stopped thinking it through is here: why do some do it and others don't. There is a clear Bible answer.

Why does John believe and Jack not believe?

The answer is because God regenerated John so that John could. John could not any more believe than Jack could before regeneration.

What are your other options? They are only this: John is wiser or less depraved than Jack. In other words, John is better than Jack. John goes to heaven because he was smart enough to choose Christ. Jack goes to hell because he was not as smart as John.

Is that what you believe? When John gets to heaven he can look down into hell as it were and say to Jack- "Well, Jack you're down there roasting because you were not as smart as me."

If you don't believe that God does all the determining then you MUST believe that some men are better than others.

Those are your only two options, Webdog.

 

[webdog]

We really are not an impasse on this particular matter. The Bible is extraordinarily clear that EVERYTHING the unregenerate does is sin. To the corrupt and undefiled, NOTHING is pure. I have provided a dozen passages that unmistakably prove that this is so.

This is only an impasse if you will not see the facts.

As for Jesus saying, "Ye ought to have done the latter...", I've addressed this as well in this debate.

Men ought to do what they cannot do. Ought means to owe. Men owe a debt they cannot pay.

Men ought to live for Christ- but they cannot; not without regeneration.

Wow...we are not at an impasse as long as I agree with you :laugh: The very definition of impasses tells me we are at an impasse. I don't agree with you...you don't agree with me. You have claimed to examine the facts, I have examined the facts (even though you say I have not...don't understand how you could have arrived at that, oh wait...I don't agree )

For not having a free will you are pretty strong willed :thumbs: