What can unregenerate man do?

[Winman]

Winman, have I said anything about that? you need to go back and read what I wrote.


As I said, this is off topic. If you want to talk about election and "no respecter of persons" then I'll be glad to engage in that discussion on another thread.

Start all the threads you want. I was answering your question.

You were saying whosoever believes simply means whosoever believes. That is circular reasoning whether you will accept it or not. I was explaining that if you read verse 12 you see that Paul is explaining that there is "no difference" between any man and another. He was showing that whosoever means any man at any time. No one is excluded.

 

[jbh28]

Start all the threads you want. I was answering your question.

You were saying whosoever believes simply means whosoever believes. That is circular reasoning whether you will accept it or not.

It's not circular. Circular is when you use your conclusion to prove your point. If I said whosoever believes BECAUSE whosoever believes...then THAT would be circular reasoning. But that's not what I said. IF I said that whosoever believes means whosoever believes, that would be a redundant statement, not circular argument. So you have 2 errors. One is misquoting me and another mis identifying a logical fallacy.

I was explaining that if you read verse 12 you see that Paul is explaining that there is "no difference" between any man and another. He was showing that whosoever means any man at any time. No one is excluded.

And did I disagree with that? I said that ANYONE that believes will be saved. Where do you disagree with me on that?

 

[jbh28]

Why did I(you and all those that get saved) love light rather than darkness? what was different about us compared to the one that never comes to Christ?

What about this? If you believe that you are the deciding factor if you get saved or not, what was different about you and the one that doesn't get saved?

 

[zrs6v4]

I got saved because I went to church and the pastor preached a real fire and brimestone sermon on sin and the wages of sin, DEATH. He convinced me I was a sinner on my way to hell. I was scared to death. But he also convinced me that Jesus loved me and died for my sins and would save me if I came to him in my heart for forgiveness. I tell ya, I almost ran down at the invitation, I did not want to leave that church without getting my salvation settled right then and there.

How does that make me worthy of boasting?

No no, I didn't want to point fingers or begin to move in that direction. I wasn't accusing you of boasting.

My point was that if you keep asking the deeper "why question" then you will find there is always a cause to an effect. When I asked why one would turn from darkness over another I intended to show that the cause was not the persons choice, but rather the cause is God. If we caused a good work in us, IE believe, then in my reasoning it is boasting. Now I don't want to point fingers or start accusing people of anything . I just see it as a type of good thing that is attributed to us rather than God. I must repeat myself that I don't want to be divisive, I want to have a fruitful discussion so please don't take offense. Just imagine me treating you as a brother in Christ and a friend in this conversation. I say this because of Quantum's latter post I will address. I have heard the accusations thrown around about boasting and I don't want to go there, that's all. Lets just reason honestly together and clear things up.

 

[zrs6v4]

God's Word convinced me that good is better than evil. The wages of sin is DEATH, to be tormented forever in the lake of fire. I can't think of any earthly pleasure that is worth that.

I totally agree and God's Word convinces me as well. Let me ask a deeper question: Why did God's Word penetrate your heart in a way that caused you to see it this way over the person who doesn't see God's Word this way? My point with this question is that I believe God caused you to see His Word in this way. God surely could reveal His Word this way to the person who doesn't look at God's Word so seriously, but they don't see things like we do, why? I believe it isn't because I did something different to come to this conclusion or caused myself to have this kind of understanding. In my view I believe God had such mercy on me to show me Himself and reality in a way that not only freaked me out, but broke me over my offences against Him, and furthermore caused me to greatly desire God's ways. It seems so supernatural and opposed to my nature before I was saved.

So, if I love good over evil, it is because God enlightened me. So he gets all the credit.

Exactly, God's Spirit caused you to understand in your heart. As a result you chose to believe, which is a natural thing to do after God causes us to understand these truths. Now why did God enlighten you in this way and not the other person. Give the depths of enlightening that God's Spirit gave to you to the person who is unsaved. What if they saw things like you do? That frustrates me so much when I am preaching to people. I tell myself, "Why don't they just see Jesus like I do and if only they did!" And the answer is that it is God who reveals Himself. All of what I am saying is scratching the surface of God's "effectual call" It is the powerful and graceful call God gives that effects the person in a holy way. It shakes their souls just like it shook you the day of your salvation.

If I had never heard the Word of God, who knows? Perhaps I would have believed that evil is better than good. I think this is what some people really believe. Why work when you can steal? Why be faithful to your wife when you can enjoy yourself with many women? Why not take drugs and alcohol? They make you feel good. Why not gamble? It is easier than working.

You are very right that God uses His truth or His Word to penetrate our hearts. The Word of God is the very sword of the Spirit (Epesians 6:17). The Spirit and the Word work together, not one without the other. The truth/word alone is ineffective without the Spirit and the Spirit does not work apart from the Word. It is like a Soldier and his sword. The sword is useless alone and the soldier can't fight without his sword. This is why we are saved by the work of the Spirit through the Gospel of our salvation.

Some folks do not believe in the hereafter, and so they believe sin is pleasurable and beneficial to them. This is why I believe many people love sin.

People love sin because they are in darkness, all of us were there. They do not understand in their hearts what life is all about nor do they understand that the Lord is our true pleasure and the only satisfaction. That is the very reason that they continue to turn in circles through life. They go from one idol to the next, because they are at strife with God and don't know Him. They need God to come save them from their darkness. When God comes to them and they see truth as we see it (The Lord high and lifted up) they will bow and repent of their sins. But guess what, if they dont see in their hearts and are left up to themselves, they will never understand what they are missing. It is sad, and I know that while I can bring them truth I must rely on the Spirit of God to open their hearts and cause them to see in their inner being and walk in His ways.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

It is only plain if you willfully reject scripture that clearly refutes you view.

Luke 6:32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners love those who love them. This is good, there is nothing wrong with this whatsoever. He was simply saying it is even better to love those who do not love you.

Jesus said sinners do good to those who do good to them. There is nothing wrong with this either, we should do good to those who do good to us. But Jesus was saying it is even better to do good to those who do not do good to you.

Jesus was comparing the saved with lost sinners and said sinners do "the same". Their love is not a different kind of love, and their good works are not a different kind of work, they are "the same".

You choose to ignore scripture like this.

:thumbsup: excellent point and there are other verses as well. Context is key.

 

[webdog]

No no, I didn't want to point fingers or begin to move in that direction. I wasn't accusing you of boasting.

My point was that if you keep asking the deeper "why question" then you will find there is always a cause to an effect. When I asked why one would turn from darkness over another I intended to show that the cause was not the persons choice, but rather the cause is God. If we caused a good work in us, IE believe, then in my reasoning it is boasting. Now I don't want to point fingers or start accusing people of anything . I just see it as a type of good thing that is attributed to us rather than God. I must repeat myself that I don't want to be divisive, I want to have a fruitful discussion so please don't take offense. Just imagine me treating you as a brother in Christ and a friend in this conversation. I say this because of Quantum's latter post I will address. I have heard the accusations thrown around about boasting and I don't want to go there, that's all. Lets just reason honestly together and clear things up.

If you keep asking the "why" question in regards to those who do not come to the light and sin, will you come to the same conclusion?

 

[zrs6v4]

If you keep asking the "why" question in regards to those who do not come to the light and sin, will you come to the same conclusion?

If you keep asking the 'why' questions in regards to those who do not come to the light the conclusion will always be because of their nature that has blinded them from the light, they refuse apart from the Spirit. If you mean same conclusion as in God is the problem or the cause, then your viewing it from the wrong angle. God is not obligated to give mercy, nor is he to blame when a sinner keeps on sinning and He allows it. We both agree that an unsaved person does not deserve God's mercy and God doesn't sin by not giving mercy. On the flip side God promises to give it to all who repent and believe the Gospel. This is the very way that God is sovereign over election, He controls all who "come" because it is alone His goodness that brings them. The majority of mankind who does not "come" are those that God leaves alone to make the choices which is always to continue into sin. He may or may not give them all a chance at hearing the Gospel (let that be for another discussion) but in and of themselves upon hearing the Gospel they always choose the way their nature leads them, which is to desire sin and lord their own lives. We were all once like that. Its humbling that God actually chose to save us while we were in the middle of our sin.

The reason why Jack and John went to two different eternal destinations is that the one who went to heaven had God come and save him and the other person was left under God's judgment in his own nature that refused 'all' of God's ways. Both men were equally dead and blind in their sins. Yes God is capable of saving all people, and yes you can point fingers at God and say, "why didn't you save that person but chose to save another?" God saves all He wills and I think when we see it through His eyes, we struggle, but begin to understand His choices and accept them. From my human perspective I can't imagine God not saving everyone because I relate so closely to the world and misunderstand how wicked it/we really is.

 

[webdog]

If you keep asking the 'why' questions in regards to those who do not come to the light the conclusion will always be because of their nature that has blinded them from the light, they refuse apart from the Spirit.

I'm amazed you cannot see the inconsistency in your position.

Jack - saved = All God
John - lost = All man.

If you are going to maintain the deterministic view of God's sovereignty you must also apply it to the reprobate and sin in general. There is no way around it. You cannot have God regenerating, giving faith, etc. without Him also not regenerating, not giving faith, etc. It's inconsistent and a copout to maintain "Oh, God just leaves them to themselves to decide not to choose Him".

 

[jbh28]

I'm amazed you cannot see the inconsistency in your position.

Jack - saved = All God
John - lost = All man.

If you are going to maintain the deterministic view of God's sovereignty you must also apply it to the reprobate and sin in general. There is no way around it. You cannot have God regenerating, giving faith, etc. without Him also not regenerating, not giving faith, etc. It's inconsistent and a copout to maintain "Oh, God just leaves them to themselves to decide not to choose Him".

how is that inconsistent or a cop out? It's not inconsistent at all. Man sins. He wants to sin. The punishment of sin is eternal damnation. If God doesn't regenerate, save, give faith....all go to hell. God has decided to save some. The rest he leaves just as they want to be. So Jack - saved = all God and John - lost = all man is absolutely correct. Everyone starts off on the John - lost = all man side. It's God that saves and brings them to the Jack - saved = All God side.

 

[quantumfaith]

If you keep asking the 'why' questions in regards to those who do not come to the light the conclusion will always be because of their nature that has blinded them from the light, they refuse apart from the Spirit. If you mean same conclusion as in God is the problem or the cause, then your viewing it from the wrong angle. God is not obligated to give mercy, nor is he to blame when a sinner keeps on sinning and He allows it. We both agree that an unsaved person does not deserve God's mercy and God doesn't sin by not giving mercy. On the flip side God promises to give it to all who repent and believe the Gospel. This is the very way that God is sovereign over election, He controls all who "come" because it is alone His goodness that brings them. The majority of mankind who does not "come" are those that God leaves alone to make the choices which is always to continue into sin. He may or may not give them all a chance at hearing the Gospel (let that be for another discussion) but in and of themselves upon hearing the Gospel they always choose the way their nature leads them, which is to desire sin and lord their own lives. We were all once like that. Its humbling that God actually chose to save us while we were in the middle of our sin.

The reason why Jack and John went to two different eternal destinations is that the one who went to heaven had God come and save him and the other person was left under God's judgment in his own nature that refused 'all' of God's ways. Both men were equally dead and blind in their sins. Yes God is capable of saving all people, and yes you can point fingers at God and say, "why didn't you save that person but chose to save another?" God saves all He wills and I think when we see it through His eyes, we struggle, but begin to understand His choices and accept them. From my human perspective I can't imagine God not saving everyone because I relate so closely to the world and misunderstand how wicked it/we really is.

Why "can't" or why "won't" God save everyone?

 

[quantumfaith]

It's not circular. Circular is when you use your conclusion to prove your point. If I said whosoever believes BECAUSE whosoever believes...then THAT would be circular reasoning. But that's not what I said. IF I said that whosoever believes means whosoever believes, that would be a redundant statement, not circular argument. So you have 2 errors. One is misquoting me and another mis identifying a logical fallacy.


And did I disagree with that? I said that ANYONE that believes will be saved. Where do you disagree with me on that?

Your use of "anyone" here is a bit disingenuous, albeit, most likely intentional. For we all know that the definition of "anyone" from your position is actually formed from a subset of the population of mankind, the subset of the "elect" as you define the elect according the "reformed" definition of "elect".

 

[Luke2427]

God's Word convinced me that good is better than evil. The wages of sin is DEATH, to be tormented forever in the lake of fire. I can't think of any earthly pleasure that is worth that.

So, if I love good over evil, it is because God enlightened me. So he gets all the credit.

If I had never heard the Word of God, who knows? Perhaps I would have believed that evil is better than good. I think this is what some people really believe. Why work when you can steal? Why be faithful to your wife when you can enjoy yourself with many women? Why not take drugs and alcohol? They make you feel good. Why not gamble? It is easier than working.

Why not lie whenever it benefits you? If I believed that one I would become a politician. :tongue3:

Some folks do not believe in the hereafter, and so they believe sin is pleasurable and beneficial to them. This is why I believe many people love sin.

Then God's word made you alive.

You don't understand that nothing is good without God and the lost man is without God.

I've given a dozen verses to prove this and all you guys can come up with are passages that say that lost people love their own and give good gifts to their own.

That proves nothing but self love and the idolatrous love of things and others above God.

Everything that you think and do is wicked and idolatrous without God.

BTW, you still owe us a retraction- see post 131


And when are you going to respond to post 128?????????

 

[Luke2427]

Your use of "anyone" here is a bit disingenuous, albeit, most likely intentional. For we all know that the definition of "anyone" from your position is actually formed from a subset of the population of mankind, the subset of the "elect" as you define the elect according the "reformed" definition of "elect".

That's not true. Calvinists do not mean that. The reason, it seems that you are not a Calvinist is because you don't really know what Calvinsts believe.

Calvinists believe that EVERYONE who trusts Christ is going to heaven.

Where you miss it is thjat you absolutely refuse to think through your position.

You say John goes to heaven and Jack goes to hell because John believed and Jack did not.

EVERYONE BELIEVES THAT!!!

But WHY did John believe and Jack not believe?

Is it because John is a better man than Jack?

Or is it because God is the decider?

It's one or the other, Quantum. There is no other explanation.

No one has been able to give one.

Now if you REALLY want to know the truth, if you are really not just stubbornly defending your position, then answer the question.

Is it because John is a better man than Jack or because God is the decider?

 

[convicted1]

The thing that I think is missing in this thread is that people don't find the differences in regards to the "inner" and "outer" man. The "outer" man is made from the ground(earthly), and the "inner" man is made by the breath of God(Godly). How can someone be made spiritually dead when God gave him/her their breath?? Man is born Spiritually alive, but in time, when God "imputes" sin unto him, he then dies, and only then in need of saving. This is what Apostle Paul was referencing when he wrote "I was alive without the law once, but the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." From this point forward, we are held accountable for the deeds done in the body.

We need to seperate the two when we talk of salvation. What gets saved when God saves? The "inner" man is what get saved and not our "outer" man. The "outer" man only wants to please himself, even after we are saved. God comes and draws our "inner" man(not "outer"), because death was pronounced on the "outer" man because of Adam's sin in the garden.

Look here at Ezekiel:

verse 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The words that I have bolded shows that we won't bear the sins of Adam, but we died spiritually because of our sins, not Adam's. We are to die naturally because of Adam's sin, but if we die and go to the lake of fire, it's from our own sins(not Adam's) and failed to repent of our evil deeds.

So the "inner" man is made alive in Christ Jesus when the blood of Christ is shed upon our soul, and not before.

Here is something I found quite interesting from John Ch. 6:

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

So you see, Jesus PLAINLY states that whosoever eats of His flesh and drinks of His blood shall live. He didn't say that he that lives and then eats of My flesh and drinks of My blood will live. Man is made Spiritually live unto Christ when he gets saved, and not vice versa. Pay close attention to verse 56. Anyone who eats of Jesus' flesh and drinks of His blood dwells in Christ, and Christ in him.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I am not trying to rip these verses from their context, but showing you that God dwells only in those who have been born again. When do we come alive unto God? When God saves our dead soul!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The lost man is without Grace.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

the blood of Christ is sufficient for all but efficient for the elect.

 

[Luke2427]

The thing that I think is missing in this thread is that people don't find the differences in regards to the "inner" and "outer" man. The "outer" man is made from the ground(earthly), and the "inner" man is made by the breath of God(Godly). How can someone be made spiritually dead when God gave him/her their breath?? Man is born Spiritually alive, but in time, when God "imputes" sin unto him, he then dies, and only then in need of saving. This is what Apostle Paul was referencing when he wrote "I was alive without the law once, but the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." From this point forward, we are held accountable for the deeds done in the body.

We need to seperate the two when we talk of salvation. What gets saved when God saves? The "inner" man is what get saved and not our "outer" man. The "outer" man only wants to please himself, even after we are saved. God comes and draws our "inner" man(not "outer"), because death was pronounced on the "outer" man because of Adam's sin in the garden.

Look here at Ezekiel:

verse 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The words that I have bolded shows that we won't bear the sins of Adam, but we died spiritually because of our sins, not Adam's. We are to die naturally because of Adam's sin, but if we die and go to the lake of fire, it's from our own sins(not Adam's) and failed to repent of our evil deeds.

So the "inner" man is made alive in Christ Jesus when the blood of Christ is shed upon our soul, and not before.

Here is something I found quite interesting from John Ch. 6:

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

So you see, Jesus PLAINLY states that whosoever eats of His flesh and drinks of His blood shall live. He didn't say that he that lives and then eats of My flesh and drinks of My blood will live. Man is made Spiritually live unto Christ when he gets saved, and not vice versa. Pay close attention to verse 56. Anyone who eats of Jesus' flesh and drinks of His blood dwells in Christ, and Christ in him.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

I am not trying to rip these verses from their context, but showing you that God dwells only in those who have been born again. When do we come alive unto God? When God saves our dead soul!

i am I am's!!

Willis

Regardless if one is born spiritually dead or not, Scripture teaches that everyone is spiritually dead.

Ephesians 2- you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins.

In order to be saved he must be regenerated.

Hey, Bud, I never got a response from you on post # 161.

 

[jbh28]

Your use of "anyone" here is a bit disingenuous, albeit, most likely intentional. For we all know that the definition of "anyone" from your position is actually formed from a subset of the population of mankind, the subset of the "elect" as you define the elect according the "reformed" definition of "elect".

It's not disingenuous at all. Anyone that believes will be saved. Anybody of whom? Well, it says world in the beginning "God loved the world" so I say anybody of the world that believes will be saved. Now yes, I do believe in election and only those that are elect will believe, but that doesn't negate the fact that all that believe will be saved. How does one be able to believe, he is made alive (Ephesians 2)

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Luke, you're wrong! It was post 162...na na na boo, boo!!

Thank you Willis for this good response. I particularly appreciate the last sentence in bold. This is common ground for all of us who are in the family of God, isn't it? This is something we can all agree on regardless of our theological stripe. Those that truly believe from the heart will go to heaven, and those who fail to believe, will go to the lake of fire.

Very warm testimony as well. I just woke up and started my day and reading your testimony was a good way to start it! Thanks!

And you are right that it does seem that we could go in circles on this forever. I'll try to prevent that in this post.

First of all, though you said, "Why did [Jack] choose to do things his way and not God's? Who knows?", you indicated that you do know why when you said, "Why did he fail to repent? He loved darkness rather than light. Why did he love darkness rather than light? It was his pride in that he wanted to do things his way and not God's."

This is why EVERYONE refuses to repent isn't it? Romans 8 reminds us, "The carnal mind is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God neither can it be."

So, was this not true of John/Willis? Did Willis not love darkness rather than light? Was their not pride in Willis' heart? Of course there was, right? It is true for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US, isn't it?

So what stopped Willis from loving darkness rather than light?
What humbled Willis so that he was made willing to do things God's way?

I think we know the answer to this. It was God, wasn't it?

God changed your heart, didn't he? God changed your appetite from only loving darkness to loving light.
God overcame Willis at 1:30 in the morning in that hospital lab on May 24, 2007 by His grace.
God melted your heart of stone, didn't he?

God did it all or otherwise Willis would still love darkness rather than light and still be in proud rebellion against God.

If it were up to Willis, Willis would still be lost. Because Willis loved darkness rather than light until God overcame Willis with grace.

Now, why does Jack go to hell? Is he less depraved than Willis? No. We are all born totally depraved aren't we? We are all born with a heart that loves darkness rather than light of which Jesus said "EVERY ONE that doeth evil hateth the light NEITHER COMETH TO IT..."

No one, not Willis, not John and not Luke comes to the light as they are, do they? God must overcome them with his grace, his grace that is so amazing, so tender, so warm, so infinite that it is absolutely irresistible!

Willis would not choose God, the Bible says so, doesn't it? Not until Willis was overcome with grace.

Now if Jack goes to hell either Willis can say- "There was something in me that made me better than you Jack. Something that made me smarter or holier in my lost state than you Jack. I chose God and you didn't because you are not as good and wise as me."

Or...

You can say, "Jack, I would be in hell with you because I am no better than you are, no smarter, no less depraved- I would be in hell with you forever, were it not for GRACE!"

These are your only two options, Brother Willis.

Why do men go to heaven? Because they are smarter and wiser than their peers? Or because of God's grace?

Boy, you want me to get my BIG shovel so I can dig even deeper, huh? LOL Bro. Luke, I am afraid anything short of me saying, "God extended Grace to John and not Jack" wouldn't be a sufficient answer. I am going to Heaven because I repented of my sins, and believed in my heart what God told me. God gave me a new heart, a heart of flesh, and took the stony heart and broke it into pieces. The reason why I am going to heaven is because He extended Grace unto me and I accepted it. I have nothing to boast in this, it's all of God. God came to me, God broke my heart, God set up a Godly sorrow in my life, and God saved me. I owe EVERYTHING to HIM!! Praise Him!!

i am I am's!!

Willis