What can unregenerate man do?

[quantumfaith]

Signing off from this thread so as to preserve the tiniest bit of good within me, by God's grace.

Naten mire

PS: Mercy, Peace and Love in abundance to all.

 

[webdog]

Why do babies die physically? Did not death come through sin? Badies are born with inherited sin nature physically and spiritually from the line of Adam. It is original sin.

Physical death does not make one spiritually dead. I'm not spiritually dead, and I will die physically. Christ also dies physically and at no point was He spiritually dead.

 

[webdog]

Webdog, I agree with his response, so Ill leave it here.


When I sin it is all me, but when I do good all glory goes to God. The only good Ill ever do is by the grace of God within me. When I do bad I can't get angry with God.

I wasn't talking about doing good, we were discussing justification.

It's an inconsistent position. If God determines all actions pertaining to salvation, He determines ALL action pertaining to salvation.

 

[convicted1]

Why do babies die physically? Did not death come through sin? Badies are born with inherited sin nature physically and spiritually from the line of Adam. It is original sin.

To answer the first question zrs6v4,'Why do babies die physicallY?" is that the sin they have is contained only in the flesh. As I have plainly stated in Ezek. 18:4, 20 its the Soul(not body) that sins, it shall die. The body was born with the death sentence pronounced upon it. It is only when the sin comes from the "heart", that we are then held accountable unto God. Where their is no law, there is no transgression. Babies, infants, toddlers, etc all lie at some point to keep from getting their "fannines set on fire", but they didn't know they were lying to God, only lying to keep from getting into trouble. Major difference than knowing its wrong and doing it anyways, don't you think?

Here is a passage of scriptures in Romans that I think will support my case:

Romans Ch. 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

So you see, Apostle Paul stated he was alive without the law once, but the commandment came, sin revived(coming from his heart), and he then died. If the commandment(Law) slew him, he must have been alive to start with. How can a commandment killed a "dead thing"??

Now here in Romans Ch. 8 is what "law" Apostle Paul was referring to:

Romans Ch. 8: 1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Christ condemned sin in the flesh, that those who believe in Him will never perish. A baby doen't have the "mind" to believe in Him or not believe. When the baby grows, and then does something wrong, and knows its wrong in the sight of God, then they need to repent of their sins(when God calls them), or they will burn forever in the lake of fire. I hope this helps you see my position on this. May God bless you and your WHOLE FAMILY!!

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

It has been answered, and will not be answered again. John acknowledged who God was, and His position before God, humbled himself and sought and asked for God's forgiveness of his sins. Jack chose not to do so. Your assertion, seems to me to be a "fallacy of Complex cause".

Fallacy of Complex cause does not apply here. There is a direct cause.

It is either the innate wisdom and goodness of the person who is saved or God is the decider.

When you say John acknowledged who God was, etc... you do not back it up a single step. You are saying the same thing over and over again.

Listen Quantum, a math guy like yourself ought to love getting to the bottom of things.

For example. The vase is shattered on the floor. Why?

Because the ball hit it. Why?

Because the ball was bouncing. Why?

Because kids were breaking the rules and bouncing the ball in the house.


But here's what you are doing:

The vase is shattered on the floor. Why?

Because the ball hit it. Why?

Because the ball was bouncing. Why?

(Here's what you are doing) Because balls bounce.

But why is the ball bouncing in the house?

Because gravity pulls it to the floor.

But why is gravity pulling it to the floor?

Why is it moving at all?

Because it is not at rest.

But WHY FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE IS IT NOT AT REST????!!!

Because it is moving.

But what caused it to start moving????

LOOK!!! I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION!!!! YOU DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER- TOUGH!

______

But the truth is you are stuck at a particular step and refuse to face the truth.


That's where you are on this Quantum. You are either blind, in such a way that your heart cannot see the truth, blinded by some force- or you are too proud to go the next step and admit that John is not wiser than Jack or less depraved. John is chosen.


I challenge you to give me another reason for why John believed, acknowledged who God is, repented, saw the light, repented, humbled himself or whatever else you want to put there- and why Jack did not.

Listen very carefully. You are a VERY intelligent person- I know you can get this.

Is John wiser or less depraved than Jack or not???????????????

 

[Luke2427]

You SEEM to be getting, at the very least, "frustrated" that someone doesn't simply acquiesce to your particular positions and then you pull out the ad hominem claims.

That's not true, Quantum. There's no ad hominem in my words to which you are referring.

This is correct of course. But Quantum doesn't believe that man is thoroughly sinful as your anecdote declares.

He literally believes that there is much good in people who hourly ignore the sacrifice of Jesus as if it is not worthy of their attention.

He thinks there is much good in people who walk on God's earth and breath God's air and refuse to so much as acknowledge him, much less fall down and worship Him.

He thinks there is much good in people who only love themselves and their own; and he supports this notion with passages that show that sinful men do what hyenas and crocodiles do: give good gifts to their children.

The Bible says the opposite of what they contend repeatedly.

Logic demands that it cannot be true.

And they will NOT answer the question why some accept and others reject and what makes the difference between the two. They will not. Look at this thread. In nearly three hundred posts not ONE of them has tried to answer.

Why is this?

Everything that I had to say in the above remarks has to do with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions.

To call the above ad hominem is, well, it's actually ad hominem.

It accuses me of something while not making an argument in order to invalidate my argument. That is literally the essence of ad hominem.

But if you will point out with specificity what in those words actually qualifies as ad hominem I will apologize.

We often think someone who is making points that undermine our position are hurling ad hominems at us because we ourselves are frustrated that we cannot answer their arguments. I think that is where you are. Tell me if I am wrong. I may be.

 

[convicted1]

I'll take any answer that goes another step.

But when you say, I am going to heaven because I... and then, by implication, you say, Jack is going to hell because he...

What is the sensible conclusion?

That you were better than Jack.

Do you believe that people who are going to heaven were just better people than those who go to hell?

Bro Luke,

I am sorry about taking this long in responding to this. I was in the middle of writing a post when the wifey came back from the store. I like to eat , but I sure hate packing the groceries in a putting them away . So I just stopped my post and now I am ready to respond.

I don't want you to take that when I said "I did this", or "I did that" as meaning I am boasting. We have to repent in order to be saved, correct?

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I gave these verses, not to rip them from their text mind you, but to show you we must first repent of our sins, and then come to God. Not come to God and then repent.

After we repent of our sins from our heart, it is then, and only then, that God will save us. So we have to believe on Him first, and then God does the rest. I call it trusting in Him which is not a "work", but a gift from Him. So you see, when I say "I" or "I did", its not boasting at all, just showing people I have a responsibilty to "heed to His calling" in order to be saved. He won't make us serve Him, but those who truly humble themselves under His mighty Hand of Grace will be saved, and therefore be a fit subject for heaven. I hope this answers you questions.

i am I am's!!

Willis

PS I am not better than those who have died and went to hell, but I am "better off"!!:thumbs::jesus:

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

I am sorry about taking this long in responding to this. I was in the middle of writing a post when the wifey came back from the store. I like to eat , but I sure hate packing the groceries in a putting them away . So I just stopped my post and now I am ready to respond.

I don't want you to take that when I said "I did this", or "I did that" as meaning I am boasting. We have to repent in order to be saved, correct?

Luke 5:32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I gave these verses, not to rip them from their text mind you, but to show you we must first repent of our sins, and then come to God. Not come to God and then repent.

After we repent of our sins from our heart, it is then, and only then, that God will save us. So we have to believe on Him first, and then God does the rest. I call it trusting in Him which is not a "work", but a gift from Him. So you see, when I say "I" or "I did", its not boasting at all, just showing people I have a responsibilty to "heed to His calling" in order to be saved. He won't make us serve Him, but those who truly humble themselves under His mighty Hand of Grace will be saved, and therefore be a fit subject for heaven. I hope this answers you questions.

i am I am's!!

Willis

PS I am not better than those who have died and went to hell, but I am "better off"!!

Hey Willis, I agree with all you said, Bud. I do believe you must repent BEFORE you come to God and that faith is not a work and is necessary for salvation. I believe that is fundamental Christian doctrine.


But if Willis is not better than Jack, why is Jack in hell and Willis not?

Willis repented and Jack didn't- yes.
Willis trusted Christ and Jack did not- certainly.
Willis humbled himself before God and Jack remained in his pride- yes.
Willis said yes to God and Jack said, no- definitely.

But why did Willis do ALL of these things and Jack not do them?

Willis MUST be smarter than Jack, right? Smart enough to accept the Gospel.

Jack had to be dumber than Willis, right? Dumb enough to reject the Gospel and go to hell.

We know why Jack goes to hell from the Bible don't we. We know why he does not come to the light. Jesus told us why- men love darkness rather than light neither do they come to the light because their deeds are evil.

But what was it that made Willis do what Jack and all other people who go to hell will not do?

Here is what I seem to be getting from folks. This is an analogy of the impasse we face on this thread. Please tell me if you think it is valid or not.

I am the blue asking why John came to Christ while Jack did not. Here is the analogy to illustrate the impasse on the thread.

The vase is shattered on the floor.

Why?

Because the ball hit it.

Why?

Because the ball was bouncing.

Why?

Because kids were breaking the rules and bouncing the ball in the house.

Ahh, now we get down to the bottom of it!!:thumbs:


But here's what it seems some are doing:

The vase is shattered on the floor.

Why?

Because the ball hit it.

Why?

Because the ball was bouncing.

Why?

(Here's what some are doing) Because balls bounce.

But why is the ball bouncing in the house?

Because gravity pulls it to the floor.

But why is gravity pulling it to the floor?Why is it moving at all?

Because it is not at rest.

But WHY FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE IS IT NOT AT REST????!!!

Because it is moving.

But what caused it to start moving????

LOOK!!! I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION!!!! YOU DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER- TOUGH!

 

[convicted1]

Hey Willis, I agree with all you said, Bud. I do believe you must repent BEFORE you come to God and that faith is not a work and is necessary for salvation. I believe that is fundamental Christian doctrine.


But if Willis is not better than Jack, why is Jack in hell and Willis not?

Willis repented and Jack didn't- yes.
Willis trusted Christ and Jack did not- certainly.
Willis humbled himself before God and Jack remained in his pride- yes.
Willis said yes to God and Jack said, no- definitely.

But why did Willis do ALL of these things and Jack not do them?

Willis MUST be smarter than Jack, right? Smart enough to accept the Gospel.

Jack had to be dumber than Willis, right? Dumb enough to reject the Gospel and go to hell.

We know why Jack goes to hell from the Bible don't we. We know why he does not come to the light. Jesus told us why- men love darkness rather than light neither do they come to the light because their deeds are evil.

But what was it that made Willis do what Jack and all other people who go to hell will not do?

Here is what I seem to be getting from folks. This is an analogy of the impasse we face on this thread. Please tell me if you think it is valid or not.

I am the blue asking why John came to Christ while Jack did not. Here is the analogy to illustrate the impasse on the thread.

The vase is shattered on the floor.

Why?

Because the ball hit it.

Why?

Because the ball was bouncing.

Why?

Because kids were breaking the rules and bouncing the ball in the house.

Ahh, now we get down to the bottom of it!!:thumbs:


But here's what it seems some are doing:

The vase is shattered on the floor.

Why?

Because the ball hit it.

Why?

Because the ball was bouncing.

Why?

(Here's what some are doing) Because balls bounce.

But why is the ball bouncing in the house?

Because gravity pulls it to the floor.

But why is gravity pulling it to the floor?Why is it moving at all?

Because it is not at rest.

But WHY FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE IS IT NOT AT REST????!!!

Because it is moving.

But what caused it to start moving????

LOOK!!! I ANSWERED YOUR QUESTION!!!! YOU DON'T LIKE THE ANSWER- TOUGH!

Bro Luke,

I think I know where you are going with this. If I am wrong, please forgive me. I think that anything short of "Grace was offered to John and not Jack" will not suffice. Anyone who goes to hell goes there because they reject Christ!

Let me show you two passages that talk about two VERY evil people:

Rev. Ch 2: 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

God gave her a space to repent and she repented not. She had something to do(repent), and she failed to do it.

Acts Ch. 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Now, Saul(Paul) was offered the same "space" to repent of his evil deeds, and he did repent, and Jesus saved him. So to answer you question about why some go to heaven and some go to hell is this: some choose to serve Him and some don't. Please don't ask me why some do and some don't, because we will end up going around in circles again. I believe that Grace is offered to all, but only some will accept it. Remember, MANY are called, but FEW are chosen. So the call goes to more than those who accept it. I hope this helps.

i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[Luke2427]

Bro Luke,

I think I know where you are going with this. If I am wrong, please forgive me. I think that anything short of "Grace was offered to John and not Jack" will not suffice. Anyone who goes to hell goes there because they reject Christ!

Let me show you two passages that talk about two VERY evil people:

Rev. Ch 2: 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

God gave her a space to repent and she repented not. She had something to do(repent), and she failed to do it.

Acts Ch. 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Now, Saul(Paul) was offered the same "space" to repent of his evil deeds, and he did repent, and Jesus saved him. So to answer you question about why some go to heaven and some go to hell is this: some choose to serve Him and some don't. Please don't ask me why some do and some don't, because we will end up going around in circles again. I believe that Grace is offered to all, but only some will accept it. Remember, MANY are called, but FEW are chosen. So the call goes to more than those who accept it. I hope this helps.

i am I am's!!

Willis

Thanks Brother. I appreciate you hanging in there with me this long.

Men DO choose. I believe that.

But the question is why do some choose Christ and others don't. At your request I will not ask you to answer that question.

The answer is either some are smarter (spiritually) and less sinful or God does the deciding.

I believe the reason some choose God is because God overcomes them by his grace.

I believe the reason others do not choose God is because they love sin.


I do not believe that some men are less depraved or smarter than others. I believe all men are thoroughly sinful and hate the light and WILL NOT come to the light lest their deeds be reproved.

Those who DO come to the light, come to the light because God changes their hearts.

I think that if you are not a Calvinist you HAVE to conclude that smarter or less sinful people are the ones who go to heaven and dumber and more sinful people are the ones who go to hell.
Thus you have to believe that some are just better than others. Their reward for being not as sinful as others is that they are smart enough to choose Christ and get to go to heaven forever while their dumber counterparts must go to hell being inferior to them.

Brother Willis, can you tell me another option for why some choose, repent, humble themselves, acknowledge who God is, and come to the light and why others do not other than:

A. Some men are just smarter or less depraved

and

b. God is the decider and the heart changer

?

I am not trying to back you or anyone into a corner but I have never heard anyone give an answer to this question.

 

[Old Union Brother]

I have read this thread and debate at length and sometimes my mind almost seems fogged over. I'm not sure who is smarter John or Jack.

I believe that Grace is a gift of God. I believe that faith is a gift of God. I believe that salvation is a gift of God. I believe that Jesus Christ dieing on the cross and shedding his blood is a gift from God to save man.

I will stand on what saith the Word of God. Please consider the following scriptures from James:

1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

1:20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

I close my post, prayerfully thanking God for his Love, Grace and Peace

raying:

 

[Jerome]

"There are some people who fetch out the Doctrines of Grace just in that way! I can see them trotting along with the Doctrine of Election just in order that some Arminian may dispute with them about it and that they may then bark at him! Do not act so, Beloved!" —Charles Spurgeon

 

[Winman]

Then God's word made you alive.

You don't understand that nothing is good without God and the lost man is without God.

I've given a dozen verses to prove this and all you guys can come up with are passages that say that lost people love their own and give good gifts to their own.

That proves nothing but self love and the idolatrous love of things and others above God.

Everything that you think and do is wicked and idolatrous without God.

BTW, you still owe us a retraction- see post 131


And when are you going to respond to post 128?????????

Yes, God's Word made me alive, but I had to believe it, I had to receive it. Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to living water and said the man who "drinks" it shall live forever.

You could be dying of thirst and I could give you a glass of water. That glass of water won't do you a bit of good unless you drink the water.

And this is how God's Word is, it is like a glass of water that will save us. He offers it to all, but you must take of it and drink (believe) for it to benefit you.

We are not made alive in order to have the ability to believe, we must believe in order to have life (John 20:31).

 

[Winman]

It is the only verse you have to support his Arminian and illogical notion that dead things can believe. You have repeatedly quoted it and it does not say what you try to force it to say.

Life is necessary for faith and faith is necessary for continued life.

Fortunately that continued faith is promised.

God makes one alive so he can believe, then he believes which is why God made him alive. His life would not continue if he did not believe.

That is all that verse says and to make it a doctrinal statement of chronology of salvation is nothing more than prooftexting.

If I am wrong, prove it by doing two things:

1. Make sense of this idea that dead things can believe. You'll have to redefine the word "dead".

2. Provide another verse that ACTUALLY states that faith PRECEDES salvation.

Your verse does no more than this: A baby breathes- and breathing he has life.

Did breathing PRECEDE life? No. He had life before he took his first breath. But breathing indicates he still has life.

You want to force "that believing ye might have life" to teach that believing had to precede life. That phrase does not at all teach this- no more than "that breathing ye might have life" teaches that breath preceded life.

You must now find a verse that teaches that believing precedes life. You will NEVER find that because it is illogical and unbiblical.

Do things of necessity breathe before they have life? Of course not- the notion is utterly ridiculous. Is breathing necessary for the maintenance of life? Absolutely- irrevocably. Does the phrase "that breathing ye might have life" demand that breathing comes before life? Of course not. In fact everyone knows that the opposite is true.

But you are bound and determined to make this phrase say what you want it to say. "that believing (breathing) ye might have life" means that believing is proof of life and is necessary for the continued maintenance of life.

Please have the sincerity to admit that you are proof texting by demanding that this verse you keep using teach that faith precedes life. Please yield here so we can have fruitful exchanges on a further topic.

Well, this is just nonsense. Every one of us was spiritually dead before we trusted Christ, but we all had the ability to believe God's Word.

I am not twisting scripture at all, but you are. John 20:31 says you must believe to have life.

How can you have life before you believe? Your sins are not forgiven until you believe on Jesus. Can you be regenerated, be spiritually alive, and also be dead in your sins at the same time? Of course not, it is ridiculous.

You cannot be spiritually alive until your sins are forgiven. Your sins cannot be forgiven until you believe on Jesus. Therefore, faith MUST precede regeneration.

 

[quantumfaith]

Although there is more than one version of modern Calvinism, the bare bones of the theory can be boiled down to three statements.

1. Sinful man is incapable of choosing to repent and obey God.
2. God and only God determines which people will be saved.
3. Men cannot resist God's choice in this matter.

Notice the precise rendering of statement 2. We could have said "God determines" instead of "God and only God determines." This one small grammatical difference embodies a very large part of the argument between Calvinists and those who disagree with them. Both sides of this debate believe that God determines who is saved, but Calvinists believe that God and only God determines this.

Calvinism asserts that only one party determines our salvation. Because Calvinists believe that any part of man in the determination process negates the sovereignty of God, they frame the issue as either man or God, not both. As such, Calvinists choose God and believe their opponents have chosen man. By taking this viewpoint, Calvinists make two logical fallacies.

First by framing the dispute as an either/or scenario (either God or man), the Calvinist commits the fallacy of False Dilemma, also known as the Either/Or Fallacy. This fallacy is part of a category of logical fallacies referred to as Fallacies of Distraction. The False Dilemma fallacy occurs when:

A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator. You assume that taking a certain viewpoint or course of action will result in one of two diametrically opposed outcomes (no other outcomes possible).

What Calvinists want to rule out is a third option, the option that both God and man play a role in determining who will be saved.

BTW, the "or" operator in mathematics (logic) is an inclusive not exclusive operator. Example, if one states x < 3 or x>5, then any value which satisfies one part of that statement, is a member of the solution set. As opposed to the "and" operator, which indicates "set intersection", thus x< 3 and x>5 implies that a solution value must be "common" to both sets, and in this statement the solution set would be empty.

 

[Jerome]

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace; . . . Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration," —John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 4:16

 

[quantumfaith]

"Here, in the first place, the Apostle shows, that nothing is set before faith but mere grace; . . . Hence, also, we may easily learn, that grace is not to be taken, as some imagine, for the gift of regeneration," —John Calvin, Commentary on Romans 4:16

Jerome, is what J Calvin is saying here, that we are not to "equate" grace with regeneration?

 

[Jerome]

Timothy George, Theology of the Reformers (Nashville: Broadman, 1988) p. 225:

This being placed into Christ (insitio in Christo) occurs in regeneration which, Calvin was careful to point out, follows from faith as its result

 

[quantumfaith]

Found this interesting post.
Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Calvinists often turn to such passages as those cited above to support their notion that unsaved humans are incapable of choosing to repent and believe in God. Drawing on such passages as these, Calvinists use the idea that we are "dead in sin" to convey that being dead means we are wholly unable to choose God.

Calvinism necessitates a very particular and yet unfounded definition of death, particularly spiritual death. For Calvinism, it is imperative that human beings, being sinful, must be in a state where they are as INCAPABLE of making a decision as a dead body is INCAPABLE of walking around on its own. Thus, they compare the spiritual deadness of fallen man to a dead body.

Sure, the Bible itself uses the term "death" to elucidate what occurs to humans spiritually when we sin. However, this Calvinistic comparison to a corpse, particularly the inactivity of a corpse, is entirely inaccurate. That is not the comparison the Bible is trying to make and we will now demonstrate that.

First of all, it is significant that while the Bible does compare the sinner's spiritual condition to death, it does not compare the sinful spirit to a corpse. This is significant because death is an event while a dead body is an object. The Bible compares the event. Calvinists are comparing the properties of the object (the dead corpse) and transferring those properties onto the dead spirit. Thus, a Calvinist definition of what it means to be "dead" confuses the cause (death) with the effects (a dead body.) We will expound on that.

The goal, for Calvinists, is to view the corpse as inanimate, unconscious matter similar to a rock or a lump of coal. Thus, for Calvinists, the dead body has no capacity for choice. And, thus, according to Calvinism, the dead spirit has no choice either.

The Bible does state that unbelieving spirits are dead spirits. On this point both Calvinists and Freewill Proponents will agree. And this is why Calvinists, seizing upon the fact that an unbeliever is a dead spirit, will ask such questions as: "Dead to what or rather dead to whom?"

But such a question is really an exercise of begging the question. Such a question is already assuming a particular Calvinist definition of the term "dead." More specifically, it assumes that death is defined in terms of what we are "dead to." In doing so, this Calvinist definition of death is already viewing death in terms of its "responsiveness" to EXTERNAL things. Phrases such as "dead to what?" or "dead to whom?" imply that death, BY DEFINITION, is a state of "unresponsiveness" or "inability to act and interact."

But "unresponsiveness" and "inactivity" is really just an "effect" that death has on a physical body. We cannot assume that the effects of death are uniform for all the forms of death (including physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death.) And we will now demonstrate that the effect of "unresponsiveness" ("inactivity") is really an effect that is unique to physical death and does not occur with spiritual death.

Let's consider a corpse and what happens when people die physically. How do people die physically? We're not asking this in the sense of what external event (such as disease or old age or a car accident) causes death. We're asking this question in the sense of what happens when a person dies. When a person dies, the human spirit leaves the human body. The human spirit departs and the body ceases to function.

Presumably, some critical component or components of the body (such as the brain, the heart, the blood, etc.) cease to perform their proper function. This prompts the human spirit to depart. Once the spirit departs, the entire body, cells and all, ceases to function. And then, no longer invigorated by a spirit, the cells begin to decay.

When humans look at a dead body, we automatically understand two things. First, it is dead precisely because the human spirit, which formerly animated it, has departed from that body. And Second, this is true whenever someone dies whether they were saved or not.

The human spirit, then, acts as an invigorating engine to the human body. But let's establish that in scripture.

 

[quantumfaith]

Psalm 146KJV)
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The Hebrew word the King James Version translates as "breath" in verse 4 is "ruwach," which is the Hebrew word for "spirit." In fact, the NIV translates it as such.

Psalm 146NIV)
3 Do not put your trust in princes, in mortal men, who cannot save.
4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Below is the definition for this Hebrew word "ruwach" so that you can see for yourself.

07307 ruwach {roo'-akh}
from 07306; TWOT - 2131a; n f
AV - Spirit or spirit 232, wind 92, breath 27, side 6, mind 5, blast 4, vain 2, air 1, anger 1, cool 1, courage 1, misc 6; 378
1) wind, breath, mind, spirit
1a) breath
1b) wind
1b1) of heaven
1b2) quarter (of wind), side
1b3) breath of air
1b4) air, gas
1b5) vain, empty thing
1c) spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
1c1) spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
1c2) courage
1c3) temper, anger
1c4) impatience, patience
1c5) spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
1c6) disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
1c7) prophetic spirit
1d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
1d1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
1e) spirit (as seat of emotion)
1e1) desire
1e2) sorrow, trouble
1f) spirit
1f1) as seat or organ of mental acts
1f2) rarely of the will
1f3) as seat especially of moral character
1g) Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
1g1) as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
1g2) as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
1g3) imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
1g4) as endowing men with various gifts
1g5) as energy of life
1g6) as manifest in the Shekinah glory
1g7) never referred to as a depersonalised force

Notice that out of 378 occurrences of this Hebrew word, 232 times it is translated as either "Spirit" (referring to the Spirit of God) or "spirit" (referring to the spirit of man or an angelic being.) That means that roughly three fifths, or sixty percent, of the time this word is used, it is refers to a spirit. That frequency vastly outnumbers the next closest competing translation of this Hebrew word. Ruwach is translated "wind" 92 times, a little more than 1 fifth or twenty percent of the times ruwach occurs.

So, when Psalms 148:4 says that the "ruwach" of a man departs and his body returns to the ground, it is referring to his spirit departing from his body. And the New Testament explicitly corroborates that fact.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just like Psalms 148 says that when the human spirit departs, the human body returns to the ground and begins to decompose, James likewise tells us that the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, from both Psalms and James we can clearly see that according the Bible, the human spirit acts as the invigorating engine of the body. And since this is true whether a man is saved or not, we know that even a dead spirit does not cease functioning. The spirit continues to function and invigorate the body even when that spirit is dead.

That's proof number 1 that unsaved men have spirits. And we'll come back to this in a second.

Proof number 2 that unsaved men have spirits can be found in the following manner. Find and ungodly person in scripture and show that they have a spirit.

In Genesis 41we find that the Pharaoh of Egypt has a dream. He calls in the magicians and wise men of Egypt seeking guidance. Here is what verse 8 says of the Pharaoh.

Genesis 41:8 And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh.

So, Pharaoh had a spirit. Are we to assume he was saved? No, of course not. So that's one example of an unsaved man with a spirit. Let's demonstrate it a little more.

Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit [07307], and have seen nothing!

Here we have Ezekiel testifying to the fact that false prophets have spirits. Are we to assume these false prophets are saved? Again, no, of course not.

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes and Proverbs testify widely to the existence of a spirit in men in general.

Ecclesiastes 8:
8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit [07307] to retain the spirit [07307]; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

Proverbs 15:4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit [07307].

Proverbs 16:2 All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits [07307].

Pro 16:32 He that is slow to anger is better than the mighty; and he that ruleth his spirit [07307] than he that taketh a city.

So, all men, saved and unsaved, have spirits. And we've also seen from Psalms 146:4, that when men die, their spirits depart and then their body begins to decompose back into dust. But what does all that tell us?

Well, we're back were we started only we've established our preliminary claims in scripture.

So, let's reiterate. When humans look at a dead body, we automatically understand two things. First, it is dead precisely because the human spirit, which formerly animated it, has departed from that body. And Second, this is true whenever someone dies whether they were saved or not. For both the saved and unsaved, the human spirit acts as an invigorating engine to the human body.