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Are we born Spiritually "alive" or "dead"?
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No, no. You don't get to do that. She meant that passage taught this "age of accountability" and it has absolutely nothing to do with that- period.
Neither does your passage, BTW.
Luke, the amount of time you took responding shows you are not here to really learn anything...you are here to "win" as you put it in another thread. I will not waste my time defending my beliefs with you any longer, as you use in your own words you are "blind as a bat". Until you can intelligently address each point I will not be wasting any more time on this subject with you. Responding with "what", "this makes no sense", "it's bogus" are all non answers and does nothing to move this conversation forward. It's a waste of bandwidth.
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Prove it...I'm tired of these unintelligible responses.
And not only do I get to do that...I did that
Prove it...I'm tired of these unintelligible responses.
And not only do I get to do that...I did that
child·hood
/ˈtʃaɪldhʊd/ Show Spelled[chahyld-hood] Show IPA
–noun
1.
the state or period of being a child.
A baby is a child. Saying that a passage that says that one is a sinner from "childhood" teaches that he is most certainly NOT a sinner as a baby is utter nonsense, isn't it? If anything the passage could be used to teach that we are sinners from birth.
You don't HAVE any Bible for what you are trying to say. Therefore, you are reduced to plucking obscure passages with ambiguous meanings and literally trying to build CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE on such- and then you are not even interpreting these OBSCURE passages correctly. That being true, you have made no real exegetical argument.
Make an argument that makes logical and Scriptural sense and I will attempt to be more thorough in my responses.
Also, see the definition of a child and the etymology of the word at the end of this definition. The word literally comes from the word for WOMB.
child
/tʃaɪld/ Show Spelled[chahyld] Show IPA
–noun, plural chil·dren.
1.
a person between birth and full growth; a boy or girl: books for children.
2.
a son or daughter: All my children are married.
3.
a baby or infant.
4.
a human fetus.
5.
a childish person: He's such a child about money.
6.
a descendant: a child of an ancient breed.
7.
any person or thing regarded as the product or result of particular agencies, influences, etc.: Abstract art is a child of the 20th century.
8.
a person regarded as conditioned or marked by a given circumstance, situation, etc.: a child of poverty; a child of famine.
9.
British Dialect Archaic . a female infant.
10.
Archaic . childe.
—Idiom
11.
with child, pregnant: She's with child.
Use child in a Sentence
See images of child
Search child on the Web
Origin:
bef. 950; ME; OE cild; akin to Goth kilthai womb
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psalms109:31
Active Member
People sometimes are looking for confirmation of what they already believe and to praise those who are like minded. When it is all said and done mens interpentations and beliefs will wither and fade, but the word of God will live forever.
There is other people learning and listening and we might not reach this generation with the truth, but lets us pray for the next one and this one, because God is not finished with it.
When it is all said and done God is hidding the truth from people and they will not come. The only one's I know of in scripture is the wise and learned who do not trust in the Lord, but lean on their own understanding.
And it is often folks who make these kinds of remarks who are the most guilty of what they accuse others of.
That man is a sinner from birth is bible. That he is not is man centered, man-made theology.
glfredrick
New Member
You know that infants cannot have faith? That's weird, because the Bible says otherwise!
Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Who was baby John leaping over? How did he know?
I gave you some support above. The truth is, God's relationship with infants is something that we cannot know for certain because God will do what God will do (my point all along).
Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what [is] the way of the spirit, [nor] how the bones [do grow] in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
But the BIBLE says that there is indeed evidence of God's interaction with babies yet unborn. What I am going to post below goes against virtually everything that you have written about this subject. It will show that God can and does interact with infants in the womb in some manner unknown to us (once we are old enough to recount). It also shows that God elects both to salvation and to damnation -- in the womb, which, again, reinforces my point that God does what He does, and we are not the ones who judge Him, but it is He who judges and elects us!
I can TRUST God to do the best, right thing with infants because that is what (and who) God is.
Here are some other examples of God's interaction with babies in the womb.
Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Jdg 13:5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
Jdg 16:17 That he told her all his heart, and said unto her, There hath not come a razor upon mine head; for I [have been] a Nazarite unto God from my mother's womb: if I be shaven, then my strength will go from me, and I shall become weak, and be like any [other] man.
Job 31:15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?
Job 31:18 (For from my youth he was brought up with me, as [with] a father, and I have guided her from my mother's womb
Psa 22:9-10 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.
1Sa 16:10-12 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse, The LORD hath not chosen these. 11 And Samuel said unto Jesse, Are here all [thy] children? And he said, There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep. And Samuel said unto Jesse, Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither. 12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he [was] ruddy, [and] withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this [is] he.
Psa 71:6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise [shall be] continually of thee.
Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Isa 49:1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, [in whom] my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb [to be] his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
And, speaking in terms of the elect, the converse:
Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations [are] in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and [the one] people shall be stronger than [the other] people; and the elder shall serve the younger.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Isa 48:8 Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time [that] thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.
Eze 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through [the fire] all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I [am] the LORD.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
I see, so the Holy Spirit inspired "minneurav" (Or naur {naw-oor'}; and (feminine) nturah {neh- oo-raw'}; properly, passive participle from na'ar as denominative; (only in plural collectively or emphatic form) youth, the state (juvenility) or the persons (young people) -- childhood, youth.) which is a derivation of "naar" (boy, lad) instead of "haiyeled" (baby) by mistake.
It takes a huge leap in logic and common sense to use that passage to support a child in the womb having the ability to have faith. The Holy Spirit lept withing the baby, the baby had no knowledge who was outside of the womb. Balaam's donkey also spoke being empowered by the Holy Spirit...using such logic, the donkey can have faith in Christ.
Faith comes by hearing (understanding) and that by the Word of God. That's a simple concept, that requires the ability to understand. God gives man the ability to have faith, but not without the faculties in doing so. If that was the case, a rock could have faith.
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glfredrick
New Member
You are arguing for a position held by classical Pelagianism, which I've mentioned before. Pelagianism has been deemed heretical by the Church since the time of Augustine, but it continues to return, most recently as the underpinnings of Arminian and Liberal theology. Below are excerpts from an article written by R. C. Sproul, noted biblical scholar, on the subject:
http://www.leaderu.com/theology/augpelagius.html
Will you recant?
psalms109:31
Active Member
Jesus is the way, but as I told you God has hidden this truth from the wise and learned who depend on their own understanding . I didn't do it.
We are to do this accourding to the word.
Hebrews 3
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.
You are kidding, right? Where have I even slightly alluded to the fact an infant is in the same condition as Adam was pr-fall? Will you recant? Where have I even alluded to the fact mankind post fall is not affected by sin (pelagianism), or he can come to God apart from any working on God's part? Do you know what pelagianism really is?
I've already shown you how your assessment of my view is wrong, yet you continue in your error.
What is ridiculous is what you just said.
Try using that logic in a court of law. "Your honor, this man is a thief!" "what did he steal?" "well, nothing yet, but he was going to!" "case dismissed".
I agree that sin begins in the heart. Jesus taught that and it is taught elsewhere in the NT, but infants do not premeditate their sins. Their sins are in ignorance, which God has always made provision for (see OT).
Yes it is. That's why there is physical death AND spiritual death. The body WILL die, no way out of that, and it's because of Adam's sin that death (physical) was passed to all. In my opinion, this was not a curse but rather mercy on God's part.
We die physically because of Adam, we die spiritually because of OUR sin. God does not hold the son responsible for the sins of the father. The soul that sins shall die. My sin, my death. My children will not be held accountable for my sin.
Being born "again" implies being born the first time, doesn't it? We are born again spiritually, not physically. We must have been spiritually alive at some time in order to be born "again".
glfredrick
New Member
Interestingly, God said that if we were silent about Him that the rocks would cry out...
Luke 19:40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
You are arguing from an untenable position that takes much contriving to support in the Scriptures over against the very plain teaching of God's election and the fact that God is wholly sovereign in all things.
Note that I am not dismissing your scholarship -- not in the least. I admire the fact that you are working hard to support your beliefs with Scripture, but in a sense, you may be working too hard. You are having to draw out from a word here and there, based on your overall doctrinal lens, to find the spots that agree with your position. In a sense, you are making the Word say what has been deemed heretical for over a thousand years of our history.
But, for the sake of godly discussion, let's assume that you (and Amy G) are correct and that (and for the sake of this discussion, let's use the term "newborn") a newborn infant is born "not guilty." We KNOW that they will be guilty at some point in time. When? What do they have to do or not do in order to "properly" be deemed guilty? Those are all questions that will have to be answered in order for your doctrine to work out. I prefer a solidly biblical answer, because any other is problematic, in that we become the judge instead of God.
glfredrick
New Member
The only way that you can say that an infant is not a sinner, judged in the same light as any other sinner is to adopt the Pelagian view. That is why I posted that. If you are not in that camp, then I sincerely apologize for my error in understanding what it is that you are saying.
Have you read the OT? Do you believe it is God's word?
God had sacrifices for sins of ignorance. Christ is that sacrifice.
Christ's sacrifice (once for all sins) covers the sins of ignorance by those who cannot discern right from wrong.
False dichotomy...and since I am not in that camp, apology accepted
Do you understand what hyperbole is?
I heartily disagree. I think it is Augustine's position that takes linguistic, judicial, logical and theological gymnastics to arrive at said position.
The irony is this is what you have in essence done...taken justice, understanding of simple definitions a child can understands, not to mention poetic / figurative language and completely turned them on their heads to arrive at a presupposition which is needed to make the whole of a particular doctrine work. I allow Scripture to define words, define justice and explain spiritual life and spiritual death and how one arrives at both.
Paul already answered this in Romans 6 and 7. He emphatically states apart from the law (knowledge) he was alive, and when he understood, "sin sprang to life and I died". Not he considered himself dead, or hypothetically speaking he was dead. He states point blank "I died". This coincides perfectly with what Jesus told the Pharisees in John 9:41 "Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." Notice Jesus' use of "remains". They were not innocent while not guilty. They were not innocent of unintentional sin they had committed without knowledge, and they were not guilty of another's sin (Adam).
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