Watch this video and be prepared to be overwhelmed with tearful praise to our great God!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpMtg48f6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpMtg48f6s
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Why is there evil in the world?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Ah Luke, you just can't be content with simple benign topics, can you?
You'll jump right in with both feet and get to the crux of the matter, won't you? I enjoyed the video. Piper spoke truth. Our God be magnified. I would like to add to, not detract here.I believe the Everlasting Covenant was made between God the Father and God the Son before the creation, He knowing full well that His creatures would rebel by following their own wills, Lucifer being the first to do so:
And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. Isa 14:13,14
When Eve took of the fruit she was deceived by that lie of Satan, “ I will make myself like the Most High”. The Serpent had told her, “ in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil”.
The first Adam was not deceived by this lie. He willingly took of the fruit.
The second Adam came saying:
For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 6:38
And as Piper pointed out:
6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2
This is what I would like to add. I've heard it preached, and wholeheartedly agree, when this temporal world ends and all enter into eternity, every creature in the universe will know assuredly that there can be only One will.
Ah Luke, you just can't be content with simple benign topics, can you?
I believe the Everlasting Covenant was made between God the Father and God the Son before the creation, He knowing full well that His creatures would rebel by following their own wills, Lucifer being the first to do so:
And thou saidst in thy heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High. Isa 14:13,14
When Eve took of the fruit she was deceived by that lie of Satan, “ I will make myself like the Most High”. The Serpent had told her, “ in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil”.
The first Adam was not deceived by this lie. He willingly took of the fruit.
The second Adam came saying:
For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 6:38
And as Piper pointed out:
6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly.
8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Ro 5
5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2
This is what I would like to add. I've heard it preached, and wholeheartedly agree, when this temporal world ends and all enter into eternity, every creature in the universe will know assuredly that there can be only One will.
Absolutely.
It is the problem of evil that drives many to Arminianism. They think the Arminian exonerates the Almighty from being responsible for the existence of evil. But what a horrible thing to want to do!!!!!!
Evil was necessary for God's highest honor and our highest happiness.
There is pain in the world so that Christ could suffer pain.
There is death in the world so that Christ could die!
Him dying was the ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF HIS LOVE!!
WH
N EARTH WOULD WANT TO ROB GOD OF SUCH A GLORIOUS PLAN!!!!???!!!???!!!???!!!
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Ah Luke, you just can't be content with simple benign topics, can you?
Come on K, why should anyone knowing & embracing the true Pauline gospel be content.....you are commanded not to be brother & I say that with sincere love to a brother that knows better.
Jesus is Savior
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Absolutely.
It is the problem of evil that drives many to Arminianism. They think the Arminian exonerates the Almighty from being responsible for the existence of evil. But what a horrible thing to want to do!!!!!!
Evil was necessary for God's highest honor and our highest happiness.
There is pain in the world so that Christ could suffer pain.
There is death in the world so that Christ could die!
Him dying was the ULTIMATE EXPRESSION OF HIS LOVE!!
WH
I agree with what Kyredneck said. However, I disagree with your analysis of why people choose Arminainsim to Calvinism. The primary reason people go the route of Arminainism has to do double predestination which in principle makes God a Tyrant. Also some Like myself don't hold to the extent of total depravity that is imagined in Calvinism. It neglects the fact that men are still made in the image of God and that image has good traits. No one doubts men is always inclined to evil and opposses God. However, there are those instances that we all have experienced that Non regenerate people can display good things with out self centered intent such as self sacrifice. Since this can be observed apart from the regenerated person it is not exclusive to the regenerate whereas Calvinism would say that it was.
TS....define this for me please.... "double predestination"
God is love, right?
Sinners are without God, right? (See Ephesians 2)
Paul said, "If I give my body to be burned and have not love I am nothing", right? I cor 13
Then people who have no real love are nothing even when they give their body to be burned.
God is the sum and substance of good.
Sinners are "without God".
Sinners are without good.
But this is not the spirit of the video. Watch the video and let your heart be warmed by the great love God has for you!
quantumfaith
Active Member
As usual Thinking, good commentary. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Virtual
I got the answer to all worldly evil. We start a Virtual Bar in here (with taps of course) & sit down & serve virtual beer....never a fight in a bar right? well not till the Navy comes in. & the key is that its "Virtual" so even the TT's can get involved....brilliant (as I tap my V Guinness) :tongue3:
I got the answer to all worldly evil. We start a Virtual Bar in here (with taps of course) & sit down & serve virtual beer....never a fight in a bar right? well not till the Navy comes in. & the key is that its "Virtual" so even the TT's can get involved....brilliant (as I tap my V Guinness) :tongue3:
It is a thoroughly reformed answer and a good evaluation of that perspective on theodicy.
That said there are significant problems with reconciling this answer as presented in the modern conversation about the problem of evil/pain.
If you are reformed this is how you can answer that question. Dr. Piper is a wonderful expositor and apt theologian. I appreciate his ministry for the glory of God.
That said there are significant problems with reconciling this answer as presented in the modern conversation about the problem of evil/pain.
If you are reformed this is how you can answer that question. Dr. Piper is a wonderful expositor and apt theologian. I appreciate his ministry for the glory of God.
Good answer as to not rock the boat
I concur.Good answer as to not rock the boat
Excellent! What a good day you and I are having today!
Of course, you realize the implications of the video are that God ordained that evil be, right? That evil was necessary that Christ might display the greatest expression of love possible in dying and suffering hell for his people. This whole thing is not a catastrophe God never wanted and sent his son to clean up. It is His glorious plan!
If that doesn't light your fire, your wood is wet, as they say.
Old Union Brother
New Member
If we believe that God is sovereign over all and we believe that the bible is the word of God. We must believe were evil came from. I use as a reference Acts 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; I believe that this answers questions to the contary.
quantumfaith
Active Member
This is Augustine's great classic argument as well. Einstein probably gleaned it from him. Evil is nothing but the absence of good.
God is still the one who ordains it, nonetheless. If evil is a hole in goodness as it were, then who ordained that there be such holes?
Of course God did, didn't he?
But he did it for the most glorious of reasons- that Christ might display the extent of his great love and grace.
Without evil he could not have DISPLAYED this love of his. Grace is not necessary where there is no evil. Neither is mercy.
There is no cross and no Lamb to be praised forever for shedding his blood and paying for our eternal hell for us- if there is never any evil.
Evil was not accident or an unfortunate catastrophe which Christ came to clean up. Evil was the plan of God that Christ might receive the highest honor for displaying the scope of his great grace at Calvary.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Luke,
While you and I agree that "God is Sovereign", knows all et al. We disagree that God purposely and with intent "created" evil, even if for the purpose of His glory. (Although I do agree, this assertion is within the sample space of probablity but I do not think it the most "likely event". My position is that He KNEW evil would in fact be a by product in a creation of anything other than automatons. His infinite knowledge of it, in my HO, does not imply that He created it with intention.
I am surprised that you find yourself "at odds" with any Augustinan view. As so much of reformed theology finds its roots in the soil of Augustine.
Currently I am reading a book on theodicy, "The End of Christianity" by Dr. William Dembski. In his book, he is attempting to demonstrate, that death, suffering (evil) could exist chronologically prior to the "fall". Interesting ideas, and the fact of his being a believer and accomplished natural scientist (mathematical physicist) I must admit is intriguing to me.
I do "intellectually" understand your arguments for God being the author of evil and the multitude of scriptural support given for it, as well it being a necessary conclusion of reformed theology. However, I also see scriptural and logical support for God not being (responsible, culpable etc.) for the presence of evil.
1 John 1:5 (English-NIV)
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
I dont think it a "stretch" to make an "equivalence relation" between "darkness and evil".
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