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Scholars vs. Laity part 2
- Thread starter Amy.G
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Y'all talk about "seminary training"; training to do...what?
Some have put forth the position that "scholarly seminary study" better prepares a man for the leadership of a church; I humbly ask, what classes are doing that?
After Hurricane Katrina, a man came to me and said, "I'm so stressed out, I'm having thoughts of hurting my wife." Which seminary class "trained" you to deal with that?
I once had a military man who was deployed contact me and tell me his wife was in trouble for writing bad checks; which seminary class "trained" how to deal with that?
Just asking for clarification. If you're gonna say the seminary trains a man to be a better pastor, please tell me which classes they offer that do so.
Some have put forth the position that "scholarly seminary study" better prepares a man for the leadership of a church; I humbly ask, what classes are doing that?
After Hurricane Katrina, a man came to me and said, "I'm so stressed out, I'm having thoughts of hurting my wife." Which seminary class "trained" you to deal with that?
I once had a military man who was deployed contact me and tell me his wife was in trouble for writing bad checks; which seminary class "trained" how to deal with that?
Just asking for clarification. If you're gonna say the seminary trains a man to be a better pastor, please tell me which classes they offer that do so.
There are classes on that kind of thing but glfrederick covered that quite well on the other thread.
Seminary is about the Word of God and Church History and Hermeneutics and philosophy, etc...
These things give you a tremendous leg up on the AVERAGE layman as far as knowledge of the Bible goes.
This knowledge will doubtlessly prepare a minister to know how to minister effectively in times of trouble.
But his primary job is the exposition of scripture.
He will get tools in a good seminary that will give him a huge advantage in this area.
I'll look around for glfrederick's response.
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Okay, too many message threads, each consisting of multiple pages; anyone want to narrow down where glfrederick identified seminary classes that teach you how to deal with life situations?
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Okay, too many message threads, each consisting of multiple pages; anyone want to narrow down where glfrederick identified seminary classes that teach you how to deal with life situations?
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Re-reading your post, you make an interesting comment about "this knowledge will doubtlessly prepare a minister to know how to minister effectively in times of trouble."
Care to give us an idea of how your training prepared you to deal with the situations I mentioned above?
preacher4truth
Active Member
He may have "knowledge" but that is where it ends with him.
He's about the most arrogant person I've never met.
The funny thing is, he thinks he doesn't have to listen to anyone. Everyone on this board can see his arrogance and many have warned him. I'd just leave him alone. This kid has got to learn to listen. He's not ready to minister.
He's about the most arrogant person I've never met.
The funny thing is, he thinks he doesn't have to listen to anyone. Everyone on this board can see his arrogance and many have warned him. I'd just leave him alone. This kid has got to learn to listen. He's not ready to minister.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Luke, if you don't like how Webdog posts, put him on ignore already. You can argue with me instead. 
Now, where did that scripture go I saw posted a minute ago? It got lost in the bickering. Oh, here it is, preacher4truth posted it and you never responded:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29. -KJV
I think he should have started his quote just a little bit earlier in the passage:
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Realize, I'm not saying that higher education isn't useful. What I am saying it that higher education by itself doesn't confer authority upon the scholar to insist that another person abide by his beliefs.
Let me take it a little further. If I go into my doctor tomorrow and she tells me that my 12 yo daughter is just lazy and the fatique she's been complaining of for months is all in her head, I'm gonna go find a different doc! Why? Because that sort of comment would disregard several facts that have already been presented to her. Namely, a family history of thyroid disease and the results of the last blood test which indicated a rather severe oddity in her TSH levels.
Just because someone holds a degree in medicine, doesn't mean they are always correct.
The same goes if I am sitting in church listening to my pastor and he shocks me by suddenly preaching Calvinism. I don't care how many letters he has behind his name, and he has plenty, we're going to have a serious discussion once the sermon is over. (though, I guess I'll let the deacons have at him first)
Now, where did that scripture go I saw posted a minute ago? It got lost in the bickering. Oh, here it is, preacher4truth posted it and you never responded:
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29. -KJV
I think he should have started his quote just a little bit earlier in the passage:
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
Realize, I'm not saying that higher education isn't useful. What I am saying it that higher education by itself doesn't confer authority upon the scholar to insist that another person abide by his beliefs.
Let me take it a little further. If I go into my doctor tomorrow and she tells me that my 12 yo daughter is just lazy and the fatique she's been complaining of for months is all in her head, I'm gonna go find a different doc! Why? Because that sort of comment would disregard several facts that have already been presented to her. Namely, a family history of thyroid disease and the results of the last blood test which indicated a rather severe oddity in her TSH levels.
Just because someone holds a degree in medicine, doesn't mean they are always correct.
The same goes if I am sitting in church listening to my pastor and he shocks me by suddenly preaching Calvinism. I don't care how many letters he has behind his name, and he has plenty, we're going to have a serious discussion once the sermon is over. (though, I guess I'll let the deacons have at him first)
Y'all do realize that comparing seminary students to medical doctors is a poor analogy?
Not sure there is a good analogy. If a doctor is poor enough in his studies, a body might die--but the spirit may still go to heaven if the individual was saved. A seminary student, though, if poor enough about his studies, may end up sending a soul to hell.
Might be better to simply stick with what a seminary student studies, that gives him/her a better education than the laity.
Now remember, the ones with degrees and lots of time and money spent, want to focus on the general laity population, not the 10%, or 20%, or maybe even 50% that actually study their bibles and read books, and take the time to look up definitions of words and what others have to say about those bible passages--whether those authors are recognized learned scholars or not.
Not to mention--those of us who have more than just a bachelor's degree, but disagree with some of them about the laity.
I plan on this being my last post on the subject, so I'm just gonna throw this out: If I had just one bible passage to refer to on this subject, I'd throw out 1 Cor 12, with emphasis on verses 23-25.
Outta here.
Not sure there is a good analogy. If a doctor is poor enough in his studies, a body might die--but the spirit may still go to heaven if the individual was saved. A seminary student, though, if poor enough about his studies, may end up sending a soul to hell.
Might be better to simply stick with what a seminary student studies, that gives him/her a better education than the laity.
Now remember, the ones with degrees and lots of time and money spent, want to focus on the general laity population, not the 10%, or 20%, or maybe even 50% that actually study their bibles and read books, and take the time to look up definitions of words and what others have to say about those bible passages--whether those authors are recognized learned scholars or not.
Not to mention--those of us who have more than just a bachelor's degree, but disagree with some of them about the laity.
I plan on this being my last post on the subject, so I'm just gonna throw this out: If I had just one bible passage to refer to on this subject, I'd throw out 1 Cor 12, with emphasis on verses 23-25.
Outta here.
quantumfaith
Active Member
As a professional educator (College Mathematics) I do endorse the attainment of education in most professional endeavors. Education and training does serve to sharpen and develop knowledge and skill. However, formal professional education does more to serve by giving one a sense of credibility in the eyes of others, and unfortunately at times, a false sense of credibility in ones own eyes.
In truth, anyone, particularly in our "information rich" society, one can pursue vast resources of knowledge and enlighten themselves armed only with determination and commitment to the task at hand.
With my almost 50 years of life, I have found that simple "life experience" and the act of teaching alone, has increased my knowledge and wisdom much beyond my undergraduate and graduate education.
Time and time again, throughout the pages of scripture, God demonstrated to us that He could use the "simple man" to accomplish what he desired in the history of redemption. It appears to me, as challenged as I am, that the main ingredient God desires is a humble heart and contrite spirit.
In truth, anyone, particularly in our "information rich" society, one can pursue vast resources of knowledge and enlighten themselves armed only with determination and commitment to the task at hand.
With my almost 50 years of life, I have found that simple "life experience" and the act of teaching alone, has increased my knowledge and wisdom much beyond my undergraduate and graduate education.
Time and time again, throughout the pages of scripture, God demonstrated to us that He could use the "simple man" to accomplish what he desired in the history of redemption. It appears to me, as challenged as I am, that the main ingredient God desires is a humble heart and contrite spirit.
Outstanding post. Thanks for articulating and sharing this.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
This needs to be rethought and restated or not.
No man sends another man's soul to hell. Even in my non-Cal beliefs, I believe that if one desires to know God, He will send someone to teach them and if the first fail, another will be sent.
I do believe that someone desiring to shepherd the flock should have an understanding of the grave responsibility of the office, this one burden they do not bear. We are all called to spread the Word. It is man who has tried to divide this up and pile the greater responsibility on the preacher.
Yes and Im sure that quote comes from some level of maturity that age provides for. Good Post!
glfredrick
New Member
I believe that the context of this question is this:
Which seminary class prepared me to deal with someone hurting his wife? How about Family Ministry, Applied Biblical Counseling, Theology of Marriage and Family, and "Family Ministry Practicum" for starters. My seminary degree offered me multiple opportunities to study family ministry from a biblical (instead of psychological) perspective. Indeed, since my days in seminary, my wife and I have been instrumental in doing some very difficult family and marriage ministries, one being pre-marital counseling and another being the founders of a marriage intervention team.
The assumption here is that nothing in seminary prepares one for the difficult questions of life. That assumption is false. The seminary-trained man or woman is at least as well equipped to handle those issues as the non-seminary-trained individual, and perhaps more so.
As part of my seminary training in the issues of difficult marriage and family relationships, I've processed over 50 books on the subject of marriage and family. Those added to the Wisdom of God handed down to me in the pages of Scripture have served me very well.
And yes... I have dealt with people with just those sort of questions. We have also saved a number of very troubled marriages over the past several years. I have talked people down from suicide on more than one occasion. I have found my seminary training to be very valuable, because I have the insights of more than just my extended family (horribly broken people) or my local church (in many cases just as broken as my extended family).
What I don't get is why the SAME PERSON who may not go to seminary, yet be a great pastor would not be the same great pastor with the additional wisdom and knowledge gained from a seminary education? The two areas are not mutually exclusive.
For the record, I came out of a nominally religious background, became an agnostic, then an atheist, then, by God's grace was saved in 1987. In 1989 I became a church member, baptized into the faith. In 1991 my wife and I started a youth ministry in a church of 25 members. We saw over 100 young people from the community come to faith in Jesus Christ. Two years later I started serving my local association, then the state convention in the areas of men's ministry and youth ministry, becoming the assistant director of our summer camp program for youth, and the men's ministry leader for the state. State-wide, we saw a lot of God-directed activity.
In 1993, I was called to vocational ministry. The church saw fit to license me into the gospel ministry and I became the associate pastor of that church, now running in the 50s from our evangelistic efforts. I had preaching responsibilities on Wednesday night and Sunday night. After being very active in the ministry as a non-seminary-trained pastor for almost 10 years, I came to realize the limitations of my know edge. I was praying and God extended the call for me to attend seminary and made it very clear to which institution I should head. We landed on the campus of Southern Seminary in Louisville and I was almost 40 years of age.
Instead of merely taking a certificate in pastoral ministries at the seminary, I felt God leading me to the undergraduate program at Boyce College, Southern's undergrad program. I started there when the school was just a handful of older men like myself, looking to advance in ministry, but by God's providence, a decision was made at the seminary to make what was Boyce Bible School into a full 4-year accredited college. I was in the first class to graduate under the 4-year program. While at Boyce, I was also a student ambassador, class president, assistant to the Dean, and I preached in Boyce chapel on a number of occasions. I had a TON of church experience compared to most of my fellow students, which served me well. I was also on the steering committee that laid out the vision for the 4-year college, much of which has now come to pass, with a full program of studies, sports teams, etc.
My course of study while at Boyce was a triple major -- pastoral ministries (core curriculum in church history, theology, biblical languages, hermeneutics, plus the general education aspects such as world literature, English language skills, preaching practicum, etc.); church planting and missions (specialized knowledge in church planting, missions activities, and church governance); and family ministry (biblical counseling, marriage and family courses, and a few courses in general psychology). I graduated magna cum laude with a triple major called "Interdisciplinary studies."
After graduation, I moved across the valley to SBTS, where I enrolled in the Advanced Master of Divinity coursework in church planting through the Billy Graham School of Evangelism, Missions and Church Growth. Thom Rainer (now President of LifeWay Christian Resources) was my Dean and also my wife's boss. In this course of advanced study, I mainly focused on doctoral-level course work, including biblical theology, OT and NT theology, cultural anthropology (we must be as capable of exegeting the culture as we are the Scriptures in order to be effective as evangelists and missionaries!), plus advanced work in biblical languages, missiology, spiritual warfare, additional marriage and family course work, theology of Marriage with Dr. R. Albert Mohler (ranking as perhaps the single best class I took during my whole time in school apart from biblical languages and the church planting coursework!), and a host of other coursework in advanced Baptist and church history, hermeneutics and biblical interpretation, advanced studies in Isaiah, John Philippians, and Hebrews (these were all taught in the original languages -- and I had no more time for additional Bible book studies), and the required course work in personal evangelism, preaching, practicum, and experiential field work.
During this time in college and seminary, I planted Rolling Hills Church in Platteville, WI (long commute from Louisville, KY, and I took a full load of coursework while planting the church) and I was later pastor of HJ Baptist Church (a very Arminian General Baptist Congregation and denomination for those of you who feel that I am a rabid Calvinist) for 5 years following, including spending 3 years as their associational moderator.
I and my family paid a HEAVY PRICE for my attending seminary. They got to see their dad working 20+ hours EVERY DAY for almost 12 years, while I did full credit loads at school, started or pastored churches, plus often worked additional part time jobs to keep us afloat.
I am now in the "catch up" phase, paying down debt incurred while finishing my degree work, getting our clothing and furniture back up to speed (most of our stuff is over 20 years old and worn threadbare), and starting the process of setting down a retirement so that we have some hope of a can of tuna a week when I'm too old to work anymore.
We have literally given up all the stuff that most normal people would not consider giving up to have a degree and opportunities at larger and further ministries. Worth it? IN A HEARTBEAT. When I look back to my former ignorance, it is astounding.
glfredrick
New Member
That is impossible...
We don't and can't send anyone to hell. Jesus told us how this works in John 3:16-20 or so...
I did not start this thread because I have a problem with being educated. I respect all the hard work people have done to benefit their service of the Lord. Although it should not be a matter of pride.
But all the degrees in the world do not give a person the right to claim that their doctrine is correct and others are wrong simply because they have a "degree". That was the statement that caused me to start this thread.
It was stated that the majority of Calvinists were professors and Seminary grads and that is the reason they discovered Calvinism to be the correct doctrine. Basically, the reason the rest of "us" aren't Calvinists is because we don't have the training to understand the scriptures.
Although this began as a debate about Calvinism, that is not what this thread is about.
This arrogance could also be applied to other doctrines such as Eschatology, baptism, the atonement, speaking in tongues, and on and on and on.
If a professor or other formally educated person says that his view of baptism is the correct view because he is more educated than the laity, that is arrogant and prideful.
That is the purpose of this thread. It is not to disrespect those who have studied hard to achieve a degree.
But all the degrees in the world do not give a person the right to claim that their doctrine is correct and others are wrong simply because they have a "degree". That was the statement that caused me to start this thread.
It was stated that the majority of Calvinists were professors and Seminary grads and that is the reason they discovered Calvinism to be the correct doctrine. Basically, the reason the rest of "us" aren't Calvinists is because we don't have the training to understand the scriptures.
Although this began as a debate about Calvinism, that is not what this thread is about.
This arrogance could also be applied to other doctrines such as Eschatology, baptism, the atonement, speaking in tongues, and on and on and on.
If a professor or other formally educated person says that his view of baptism is the correct view because he is more educated than the laity, that is arrogant and prideful.
That is the purpose of this thread. It is not to disrespect those who have studied hard to achieve a degree.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Amy I have to agree with you here. I know many Educated Catholics for instance who's training is far greater in many instances than many pastors I know. Who's education will pale many others. However, that hasn't kept them from doctrinal errors.
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