First Pastorate--Need Advice

It would not be allowed in our church. I think you're doing the right thing.

Personally, I've never understood the idea of a couple who never set foot inside a church wanting to be married there. I've had that happen three times. Each time, as soon as I told them that because they were not members, I would have to talk to their pastors to assure that they were members in good standing of a local church and have a valid salvation testimony, and that they would have to undergo counselling, we never heard from them again.

 

Our policy- we require pre-marital counseling for anyone desiring to be wed by one of our pastors- whether it is in the church or not. And during the first counseling session some of the questions we ask are, "Are you living together?" and "Have you abstained from sexual relations in your relationship?" If a couple is living together or has been sexually active we make it a condition of the counseling continuing for them to maintain separate quarters and abstain until the wedding.

Of course we have to do that on the honor system, but most of the folks that I have dealt with will be honest with me and either tell me they cannot do that ( and make plans elsewhere) or they realize the seriousness of the commitment that they are about to make and they decide to obey the conditions.

 

My policy concerning cohabitation matches Mexdeaf’s and it has worked well for me. What you want to be sure of Sea Level is that you define your policy and your church’s. They do not necessarily have to be the same. Your church should have a policy about use of the facilities. Many churches will rent out their auditoriums and fellowship halls for secular events. That is fine if they want to do that, but if you are open to the public then you are open to lawsuit if you deny someone access due to sexual orientation. A written policy that lists what is allowed and not allowed will help you legally.

Your personal policy on who you will marry does not need to match your church’s. It is perfectly acceptable to say, “I will perform your marriage ceremony, but it can’t be at our church.” I have done several weddings in public parks and even in private homes. When I was a new pastor I had mentors on both ends of the spectrum. Some would marry only church members, and only after extensive counseling. They would not marry divorced couples or lots of others. They were very selective and took it very personally when a wedding failed. On the other end, I knew pastors that would marry anyone. They looked at it as a means of outreach and welcomed lost couples explaining that it gave them an opportunity to share the gospel. Couples that he married were very likely to end up visiting the church later and many couples were saved.

My policy is somewhere in between. I will do a ceremony for non church members, but I do so only after some private meetings.

 

Do not compromise on this issue. Some will get mad but most will respect your stand.

 

I have another take...

First, if we disallow sinners from having functions in the church, then we end up with an empty building.

Second, since when do we expect or need people to be all squared away before we invite them to come to Christ or into the church building?

Third, how is using the church building -- a community function -- somehow watering down the message of the Word, which should, at some level, include loving and reaching out to the lost? Granted, we can set standards, but if we end up sending a message to the community that we dislike the people of that community, then guess who will eventually reject the church before every hearing the message of the gospel? As I recall, Jesus was castigated by the leaders of Jerusalem for dining with "sinners, wine bibbers, tax collectors, and prostitutes."

Fourth, why is there not an active church ministry to the people in this social group? Because it is messy? Because the church lacks personnel and resources? The people who come from this social group who are redeemed become your new ministers to reach the rest of this population!

If it were me, I'd probably go out of my way to gift these people in ways that effected their lives. Not as a "reward" for living in sin, but as an encouragement to know that Christ's love covers all sins, and that the only unpardonable sin is not coming to Him.

 

It's one thing to minister. It's quite another to appear to be sanctioning lifestyles that are not only un-Biblical but are detrimental to our society as well.

 

Our church has determined that marriage to God is something holy and we should hold it up as such. Especially since it is an some spiritual way linked to the relationship that Christ has with us.

 

And I'm OK with that. Better an empty building that a compromising church.

We're not talking about inviting them into the church building. We're talking about letting them use the church building, specifically, the sanctuary for their event and the message that sends to the world about our beliefs and about our relationship with the people renting the church.

By sending the message to the world that we agree with the event.

Jesus never engaged in their sin or endorsed it.

Because church is for the Body of Christ, not the unsaved.

And that is up to you. But the church should not be used in that way.

 

I keep hearing this, then seeing empty church buildings. Guess it is working.

IF we were talking about the service of worship, I would readily grant your point. Using the building as a community blessing, however, is not "church" unless, that is, you have declared the building itself sacred -- something that the Reformers rather frowned upon, as do most Baptists.

It does send a message... You are either like us or go away.

Somehow, I doubt that the "world" will either know or care. What the "world" (or how about just the community outside the walls of the church?) will know for sure is that you don't really have a heart for sinners.

True that! I completely agree. But some have made His sinless life out to be one of total separation from a sinful world. That was not the case at all! In fact, the interaction with sinners was one of the main points the hyper-religious Jews brought up against Jesus at His trial. Perhaps THEY missed a point that Jesus would have us understand?

Yup. Again, you are not holding a service of Christian worship. You are hosting a community event.

Obviously, we disagree. Interestingly, our church is growing so fast that we have problems fitting all the people inside on any given Sunday. It is not growing because we are "loose" in our theology or morals -- far from it -- I expect we are more strident than many other churches, for we actually institute church discipline if our MEMBERS fall astray from the Scriptures or the agreed upon church membership covenant. But, we are "open to the public" in a number of ways, from concerts to a fully-functioning art gallery.

Just yesterday, my wife and I brought two visitors to church with us. They are our nest door neighbors. We have worked for almost 3 years to build a relationship with this couple so that we could come to the point where we could both invite them to church and share the gospel with them. For the record, they are confirmed lesbians. God's grace is larger than any individual's sin. We could run them out of the church or invite them in to hear the gospel and experience Christian community. We chose to let God be God.

 

I am slightly divided on this one. While I believe we should set standards for how the church's facilities are used & by whom, I also don't think we should take the "it's our sanctuary" road either. The church house is not the church. It is just a building. When we start equating the building & facilities to the church, as if it is a holy place, we have taken a dangerous step toward religification(new word).

Now to take the other side. Where do we draw the line? How do we allow fornicators or adulterers to use our buildings & not allow the homosexuals? Boundaries must be set, or anything is permissible. This is certainly a complex issue that cannot be resolved by asking, "what would Jesus do?". We don't know what He would do.

 

Does the world know the difference between a church endorsing something or merely renting out the building? I don't believe they do, or else the Bible wouldn't have so many prohibitions on mixing with the world.

If we have to let two homosexuals marry in our sanctuary, can we at least put a sign up that says "This is a sin, we don't endorse this, but some liberal on BaptistBoard said we were being mean if we didn't let them do it here?"

I disagree. I believe it sends the message that we consider the church building to be a place set aside for the things of God.

How will they know that? Just because we refuse to rent out out church building for a purpose we disagree with? So, is there any place we should draw the line?

OK. Can you show me any example in scripture of Christ engaging in sin or endorsing sin?

Please try to keep it to the topic. We're not talking about community events. We're talking about renting out the church building for personal events that go against our beliefs.

And yet, that's exactly what you're demonstrating in this thread.

I see. So then it's wrong for us to choose not to rent out our building for things that violate Biblical principles, but it's OK for you to discipline members for going against Biblical principles.

Well, at least you're not a hypocrite. Oh, wait...

Well, at least they won't go to Hell bored.

I don't even know how to respond to that one. That is just so wrong on a number of levels.

You're telling me that you hate your neighbors so much that it took you three years to finally get around to a point where you might share the Gospel with them, and yet, you say we're the ones who don't have a heart for sinners?

Hey, I think you should definitely make them members of your church. In fact, because they're lesbians, I think you ought to just rubber stamp them in and waive all of the Biblical requirements for membership.

And then, you can hold a wedding ceremony for them and a reception and invite the whole community.

 

Just yesterday, my wife and I brought two visitors to church with us. They are our nest door neighbors. We have worked for almost 3 years to build a relationship with this couple so that we could come to the point where we could both invite them to church and share the gospel with them. For the record, they are confirmed lesbians. God's grace is larger than any individual's sin. We could run them out of the church or invite them in to hear the gospel and experience Christian community. We chose to let God be God.

That is one thing and I commend you for it. But, it's quite another to allow them to celebrate their "wedding" anniversary in one of your buildings. May as well let them get married in your facility too. You or your staff don't have to perform the wedding. A lesbian minister from the local United Church of Christ can do it. After all, it's just a building. It doesn't represent the church body.

 

Why would you work for three years to invite them to church? We are all called to spread the good news of Christ, not the good news of the church. Don't worry about getting them in the church door & just be Christ to them. The Scriptural example is always one of salvation occurring where ever the gospel is preached(out in the world) & then they are added to the church as believers.

 

I don't get the whole "three years" just to get to a point where he can invite them to church so that somebody else might share the Gospel with them.

For goodness sake, I lost eleven family members in a three year period between 1988 and 1990. Do you have any idea what can happen in three years?

What if God, in His foreknowledge, knew one of those women had cancer or was going to be hit by a truck and sent them to be his next door neighbor specifically so that he would have an opportunity to share the Gospel with them? He doesn't and one of them dies. What then?

I've always found it fascinating that nobody ever says, "Well, I really wanted to get to know them before I talked about the weather" or "We waited three years before we talked to them about last night's ball game" or "I didn't feel like I knew them well enough to ask if they'd seen the new movie".

But people are absolutely terrified to share the Gospel with people. I lead an evangelism team and the folks on my team will walk right up to you and say, "Hey, how's it going? We're having a trivia challenge. Wanna play?" And them ask them trivia questions that lead to a presentation of the Gospel.

I think my conscience wouldn't let me sleep if I didn't share the Gospel with them.