He DOES control all decisions- how does that contradict synergistic reprobation?
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Will- Is there not a cause?
- Thread starter Luke2427
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He DOES control all decisions- how does that contradict synergistic reprobation?
Apply this law to reprobation as well, then! If God causes all decisions, He causes all decisions...even the ones where man rejects God.The truth cannot violate the laws of non-contradiction which God set up.
In other words there cannot be a dollar in my wallet and NOT be a dollar in my wallet at the same time.
Salvation cannot be ALL of God and NOT all of God at the same time.
If we allow for the contrary then we have to conclude that NNE can know anything because everything cam be what it is and not what it is at the same time.
He's the cause of rejection, He doesn't "work together" with man. You said as much in your law of contradiction.
No, no.
The idea of working with man does not contradict the idea that God is the cause of it at all.
I do- consistently.
...yet it does in regards to salvation?
You're making my head spin!I think the casual reader to this site will see the dire inconsistency in that position.
If you did, you couldn't have reprobation being synergistic but salvation being monergistic. That violates the very law you support.
The point of my two questions:
Is to bring the discussion to the attributes of God.
I think, in a nutshell, the following can be said about theological perspective and attributes of God.
And from these different shell halves (if you will), all of the theology differences rest.
That is how I see the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism at its root or foundation.
And as such, there will never be agreement between those at the opposite ends of both theologies.
Many Baptist church histories have attempted to bring the best of both theologies together in doctrine, worship, song, and sermons. And these reconciliation attempts usually lead to additional splits and branching off.
While these debates are fun and feisty--I do not see them going anywhere.
...Bob
What is the cause of the existence of God?
What is the cause of the choices of God?
What is the cause of the choices of God?
Is to bring the discussion to the attributes of God.
I think, in a nutshell, the following can be said about theological perspective and attributes of God.
Calvinism sees the will of God.
Arminianism sees the love of God.
Arminianism sees the love of God.
And from these different shell halves (if you will), all of the theology differences rest.
That is how I see the difference between Calvinism and Arminianism at its root or foundation.
And as such, there will never be agreement between those at the opposite ends of both theologies.
Many Baptist church histories have attempted to bring the best of both theologies together in doctrine, worship, song, and sermons. And these reconciliation attempts usually lead to additional splits and branching off.
While these debates are fun and feisty--I do not see them going anywhere.
...Bob
...yet it does in regards to salvation?
I think the casual reader to this site will see the dire inconsistency in that position.
The casual reader is not a theologian I am sure. These are complex matters that require many many hours of study to grasp them.
Synergism in Arminian ranks has to do with the idea that man's will is free just as it is or is freed up to choose Christ.
The Calvinist rejects this idea of synergism. The Calvinist says, "No. Your will as you had it was not free, nor is it freed up, but it is changed."
That is what we mean by monergistic salvation.
But the fact of the matter remains that once God changes the will and that indeed that will that exists in a new heart and is bent toward God DOES cooperate with the grace of God- it can do no other.
When the Calvinist speaks of monergism he does not deny that man does cooperate with God for salvation. But his heart is changed so that he WILL cooperate with God for salvation.
The man cooperates by believing but God causes him to be willing to cooperate and causes him to believe.
That is, IMO, not an accurate representation of the tensions.
Calvinists understand that the highest good in the universe is the GLORY of God. They also understand that God must always be in pursuit of that which is the highest good. Therefore God does what he does in purusit of his glory.
His love is bestowed that he might receive glory for his infinite love- it is not bestowed because the creatures he loves deserve it or are worthy of it.
Personally, I don't usually respond to this ongoing debate calvin vs arminius soteriology.
I can honestly say that I am a follower of neither.
To me, to say that God is in any manner or in any way the cause and/or author of sin to any degree by any venue is repulsive and the arguments thereof are orwellian doublethink.
On the other hand to say that we (mankind, collectively or individually) in any manner or in any way by any venue can effect our own salvation to any degree apart from the absolute sovereign power of God is equally as repulsive.
This is not an indictment of those brethren holding to either view and that is not say that I might not find myself in either camp at some time in the future. I have presently chosen indecision which I suppose is not so good in the eyes of some.
For now, I am caught in what I see as the great gulf fixed between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man concerning salvation.
But I am content to be here because He is with me and He knows my limitations.
This is what I/we can do.
Proverbs 3
There are other conflicts between the calvin and arminus views which I cannot bridge with the Scripture.
There are also personal objections to pet doctrines in each view which I am simply unable to reconcile with Scripture.
I am however able to fellowship with either camp (and others camped along the way somewhere between the two), assuming of course that they have the indwelling Spirit.
Here is what I do know (and probably all of us as well): Christ has transformed my life and the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God.
Also "...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".
God's blessings to all in this our season of joy.
HankD
I can honestly say that I am a follower of neither.
To me, to say that God is in any manner or in any way the cause and/or author of sin to any degree by any venue is repulsive and the arguments thereof are orwellian doublethink.
On the other hand to say that we (mankind, collectively or individually) in any manner or in any way by any venue can effect our own salvation to any degree apart from the absolute sovereign power of God is equally as repulsive.
This is not an indictment of those brethren holding to either view and that is not say that I might not find myself in either camp at some time in the future. I have presently chosen indecision which I suppose is not so good in the eyes of some.
For now, I am caught in what I see as the great gulf fixed between the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man concerning salvation.
But I am content to be here because He is with me and He knows my limitations.
NKJV Ecclesiastes 3:11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.
This is what I/we can do.
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
8 It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.
There are other conflicts between the calvin and arminus views which I cannot bridge with the Scripture.
There are also personal objections to pet doctrines in each view which I am simply unable to reconcile with Scripture.
I am however able to fellowship with either camp (and others camped along the way somewhere between the two), assuming of course that they have the indwelling Spirit.
Here is what I do know (and probably all of us as well): Christ has transformed my life and the Spirit witnesses to my spirit that I am a child of God.
Also "...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely".
God's blessings to all in this our season of joy.
HankD
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A thought that might help in regards to "reprobation":
I Peter 2:7,8 - "The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone," and "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense;" for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
Note how man is the immediate cause, yet God is the mediate cause.
Here's an article to illustrate the difference, and to touch upon the idea of "evil". http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5445
I Peter 2:7,8 - "The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone," and "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense;" for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
Note how man is the immediate cause, yet God is the mediate cause.
Here's an article to illustrate the difference, and to touch upon the idea of "evil". http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5445
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God elects the reprobate, as he does the elect. Yet man is fully responsible as well. This is a tension that many try to eliminate, by twisting the Bible, and ignoring the scriptures.
Man is FULLY responsible for everything that he does. he is fully responsible for his sin.
Yet God is FULLY in control, and every single thing that happens, is what he desires; otherwise He would have stopped it, as He is fully capable of doing.
The issue is not an issue of choice. That is a huge misunderstanding. The issue is an issue of order.
Someone must be the final arbiter. There is no other way an orderly universe could exist. The bible declares that God is sovereign and ruling over everything. God, then, must be this final arbiter. The bible also declares that "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." So, what God would do God always determined to do, even before He spread the starry sky.
So, you have a universe where, from our perspective, an infinite number of things could have taken place. People could have existed at a different time and a different place. Outcomes could have been different. People who died young might have lived to old age and vice versa. In other words, imagine a circle composing all things that could have been. In this circle you have things like Assyria conquering Jerusalem, the Jews entering Canaan immediately after receiving the law rather than 40 years later, etc. Things that could have been but weren't. Then you have another circle composing all things that have been, are, and shall be. The question is, how did things go from the first circle to the second. Someone had to make such a decision. Someone had to determine what would happen. That someone must be God. This must be the case because, again, He has determined all His actions from before the world began. He determined that Assyria would not take Jerusalem, and He determined such before the world began. Thus, we see other actions fall out as a result of that determination. Hezekiah is king, Isaiah is prophet, the Assyrians blaspheme God, etc. It's not a matter of choice but of order.
God determined what would be before the world began. That doesn't make God the author of my sins. God didn't make me sin. But God did determine what He would do, what He would prevent, what He would allow. He determined to allow Hitler to do what He did. There's not telling how many similar madmen He determined to stop before they got started. God isn't the author of my choices, but He is the arbiter. God placed me here, in this place, at this time, in this setting and that has had a huge impact on my life. Had I been born in Arabia, I'd be totally different. A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps. God had determined He would use me to preach to His people. Thus He has arranged these things in my lifetime to lead me down this path. Again, the issue is order. God made a determination, and all other things lined up with that determination. God didn't violate my ability to choose. That's a misunderstanding of things.
Someone must be the final arbiter. There is no other way an orderly universe could exist. The bible declares that God is sovereign and ruling over everything. God, then, must be this final arbiter. The bible also declares that "known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." So, what God would do God always determined to do, even before He spread the starry sky.
So, you have a universe where, from our perspective, an infinite number of things could have taken place. People could have existed at a different time and a different place. Outcomes could have been different. People who died young might have lived to old age and vice versa. In other words, imagine a circle composing all things that could have been. In this circle you have things like Assyria conquering Jerusalem, the Jews entering Canaan immediately after receiving the law rather than 40 years later, etc. Things that could have been but weren't. Then you have another circle composing all things that have been, are, and shall be. The question is, how did things go from the first circle to the second. Someone had to make such a decision. Someone had to determine what would happen. That someone must be God. This must be the case because, again, He has determined all His actions from before the world began. He determined that Assyria would not take Jerusalem, and He determined such before the world began. Thus, we see other actions fall out as a result of that determination. Hezekiah is king, Isaiah is prophet, the Assyrians blaspheme God, etc. It's not a matter of choice but of order.
God determined what would be before the world began. That doesn't make God the author of my sins. God didn't make me sin. But God did determine what He would do, what He would prevent, what He would allow. He determined to allow Hitler to do what He did. There's not telling how many similar madmen He determined to stop before they got started. God isn't the author of my choices, but He is the arbiter. God placed me here, in this place, at this time, in this setting and that has had a huge impact on my life. Had I been born in Arabia, I'd be totally different. A man's heart deviseth his way, but the Lord directeth his steps. God had determined He would use me to preach to His people. Thus He has arranged these things in my lifetime to lead me down this path. Again, the issue is order. God made a determination, and all other things lined up with that determination. God didn't violate my ability to choose. That's a misunderstanding of things.
Steven2006
New Member
Lev 1:3 'If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the LORD.
Lev 1:4 'Then he shall put his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:4 'Then he shall put his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it will be accepted on his behalf to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:3 "If his offering is a burnt offering from the herd, he shall offer a male without blemish. He shall bring it to the entrance of the tent of meeting, that he may be accepted before the LORD.
Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
No free will here. The Hebrew word means "pleasure," or, ironically, "desire." This is exactly what we are saying. The man is choosing to give this offering because of a desire that he has been given, not arbitrarily.
:tonofbricks:
Sin is not God's work yet it exist. The only men to be the work of God is Adam and Christ. the rest of us are procreated. We are not His work.
For any of this to be so all men would have to be the work of God.
Is this what you're saying
What IMO you have just described is fatalism. If this is true why do anything it's already been determined before hand it'll happen regardless. What you are really saying is God not only lives the life of the Christian but also all natural men. That man isn't responsible for anything he does. God is, after all He determined it to be. This sounds beautiful to the natural man. It let's him off the hook of responsibility.
MB
Steven2006
New Member
Not exclusively, it also means "(own, self, voluntary) will, as...(what) would"
Here are a few commentaries I read on this verse. I am not certain it is as clear cut as you state.
Jamieson, Fausset, & Brown
If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord--The directions given here relate solely to voluntary or freewill offerings--those rendered over and above such, as being of standing and universal obligation, could not be dispensed with or commuted for any other kind of offering ( Exd 29:38 Lev 23:37 Num 28:3, 11-27 , &c.).
Matthew Henry (Lev. 1:3)
2. The owner must offer it voluntarily.
Geneva Study Bible
1:3 If his offering [be] a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the c tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
J. Vernon McGee
“He shall offer it of his own voluntary will.” May I say, this is free will with a vengeance. The Lord Jesus said, “if any man thirst, let him come…” . This is an lll-inclusive invitation to the human family. None are excluded except those who exclude themselves.