Seminary gives association six months to vacate property

[Baptist Believer]

PART II

When I ran the numbers I came up with anywhere between 16-20 million dollars are needed today to cover 100 retirees for 10 years.

I think the number of retirees are about half that, so the costs are probably not that high. Plus, if it’s the right thing to do, God will provide. They should have stopped raising money for the chapel and building projects and instead raised money for the endowment.

In other words, find a way and make it happen. I do not know what SWBTS' budget is, but I think $20 million would be a stretch for this seminary especially since they are having financial troubles.

And they are having financial troubles because many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders don’t believe in leading their church to give sacrificially to the Cooperative Program. When I was growing up, my home church gave nearly 22% of undesignated receipts to the CP. Today, many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders are building mega-churches, funding media ministries and spending extravagantly on buildings, but they don’t/won’t support the CP with anything but a token amount to maintain the number of messenger seats for the Convention every year. That’s a very different attitude than back in the late 1960s and 1970s. There were significant problems in the SBC then, but people actually believed in the Convention. After all the years of politics, playing games, and downright meanness, not many people believe in the Convention enough to sacrificially support it -- even those who led the fight and fought in the trenches.

That’s where the SBC’s real problem is.

 

[Ruiz]

I do not have to fight for the word of God as Peter did for Jesus in cutting off a man's ear.

Scripture takes care of itself if people would apply it and use it in talking with people.

I am amazed at the politicians in denominations who attempt to keep people from the truths of scripture.

If one is obedient in applying scripture then he does not have to worry about being deluded. I have not ever known anyone who is making disciples as Jesus did ever deny the truth of scripture or ever discount God's word.

James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."

You summarily just attacked the beliefs Spurgeon, Edwards, Huss, Wycliffe, Luther, the apostles, and prophets. They saw that there was an importance of clearly defining and standing for the Word of God. When they "fought" for the Word of God, they did not attack people physically, but often they were attacked and there was a price on their head... men like Huss were murdered. In the Bible we see men who were also murdered for their belief. Prophets who heard God and said "Thus saith the Lord" would not recant but stood on these words. God said that this world was not worthy of such men. Today, we have people who ask, "Is that really God's Word?" Forgive me if I stand with Luther and others who say that it is the very Word of God that should be trusted.

You may think martyrdom for your views is useless. You may think standing on God's Word is rather radical. Yet, I agree with God that this world was not worthy of such men... Men like Luther, Huss, the Apostles, the Waldensians, and the prophets of Old. When God talks, I think we should stand. I wish Adam said to Eve, "Thus saith the Lord, and we should trust in God rather than a serpent." He should have stood on God's Word. He should have fought for the proper understanding of God's Word. He should have stood up and said, "Thus saith the Lord."

 

[gb93433]

And they are having financial troubles because many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders don’t believe in leading their church to give sacrificially to the Cooperative Program.

If one were to listen to what a leader is among those who were involved in the "conservative resurgence" they are seeing that theology lived out today.

Just look at the homes they live in. Look at SWBTS and see the home their president lives in while some students are having a hard time just making ends meet. Think about the money he spent to go hunting in Africa and think about how many poor could greatly benefit from what that same money could have bought. There are pastors in that same country who would like to have a bicycle to ride instead of walking to the three churches they pastor.

What examples for young people to follow who sacrifice by living extravagantly while asking their faculty and congregations to give up something. Sounds like the tables need to be turned over.

James 5:5, "You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."

 

[gb93433]

In the Bible we see men who were also murdered for their belief. Prophets who heard God and said "Thus saith the Lord" would not recant but stood on these words. God said that this world was not worthy of such men. Today, we have people who ask, "Is that really God's Word?" Forgive me if I stand with Luther and others who say that it is the very Word of God that should be trusted.

What seminary or theological school teaches and requires its students to provide proof of the reproducing disciples they made before they get their diploma? How many require the same proof from their prospective professors before they hire them?

You may think martyrdom for your views is useless. You may think standing on God's Word is rather radical. Yet, I agree with God that this world was not worthy of such men... Men like Luther, Huss, the Apostles, the Waldensians, and the prophets of Old. When God talks, I think we should stand. I wish Adam said to Eve, "Thus saith the Lord, and we should trust in God rather than a serpent." He should have stood on God's Word. He should have fought for the proper understanding of God's Word. He should have stood up and said, "Thus saith the Lord."

Obedience is the key not an intellectual defense by the disobedient. If they are not making disciples then they are disobedient to Jesus' command. It is a contradiction to stand for scripture and disobey its commands.

We must remember James 1:22. If men are not making disciples as Jesus commanded then they are deluded.

James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves"

When we look at the extravagance among a number of the leaders today who claim to stand for scripture how would you say they are Jesus' disciples according to Lk 14:33.

Lk. 14:33, "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple."

I have a hard time when I see disobedience among the same men who claim to stand for scripture. In contrast I am surrounded by men and women who live out scripture by making reproducing disciples and growing. It does not a theological school or church with a multi-million dollar budget to teach people how to do that. There are many college students who are making disciples. College students are not wealthy unless their parents own an oil well.

 

[glfredrick]

What seminary teaches personal discipleship as Jesus taught and requires proof from their students of their spiritual reproduction before handing them a graduation diploma? Yet they send men on their way to "pastor" churches. If they and their students are not doers of the word then James 1:22 says they are deluded.

I could play devil's advocate and ask you to explain yourself, but I won't. But if you mean things like memorizing entire chapters of the Bible, handing in daily evangelistic encounters, reading at least 3 books per class, per semester, writing 15-25 page papers in each class, being tested for retention of knowledge, and a host of other issues, then yes, students ARE required to demonstrate some proficiency.

Not sure what you actually think happens at seminary, but you should at least visit one before jumping to conclusions. Ever diagram a sermon in Greek to prove that you are exegeting Scripture? How about one a day for an entire semester?

Every grad of Southern (or Boyce, our undergrad program) is also required in their core curriculum to take several practicum classes, where they work with local pastors in local church settings. This is on top of the VERY rigorous education that they participate in. I dare say that a typical grad of SBTS will have the ability, at least, of diagnosing and dealing with a wide range of theological issues.

But that being said, and as one who was a pastor BEFORE I went to attend seminary, as well as after, there is no amount of training that can prepare a man for a ministry that God has not called him to do. It takes work, prayer, ministry, long (LONG) hours, and dedication that I don't see in most church members to stay the course of seminary and a pastorate.

 

[glfredrick]

PART II

I think the number of retirees are about half that, so the costs are probably not that high. Plus, if it’s the right thing to do, God will provide. They should have stopped raising money for the chapel and building projects and instead raised money for the endowment.


And they are having financial troubles because many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders don’t believe in leading their church to give sacrificially to the Cooperative Program. When I was growing up, my home church gave nearly 22% of undesignated receipts to the CP. Today, many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders are building mega-churches, funding media ministries and spending extravagantly on buildings, but they don’t/won’t support the CP with anything but a token amount to maintain the number of messenger seats for the Convention every year. That’s a very different attitude than back in the late 1960s and 1970s. There were significant problems in the SBC then, but people actually believed in the Convention. After all the years of politics, playing games, and downright meanness, not many people believe in the Convention enough to sacrificially support it -- even those who led the fight and fought in the trenches.

That’s where the SBC’s real problem is.

I might suggest that it was the "moderates" in the Convention that actually killed people's attitudes toward it. It was rather self-serving back in the years you say it was doing very well -- but those years were also the beginning of the end of the Convention as it previously existed. Once the run-of-the-mill church member got wind of the fact that the Convention was hiring people at seminaries who did not even believe the Bible was true, they quit giving in that direction, and who can blame them?

 

[glfredrick]

If one were to listen to what a leader is among those who were involved in the "conservative resurgence" they are seeing that theology lived out today.

Just look at the homes they live in. Look at SWBTS and see the home their president lives in while some students are having a hard time just making ends meet. Think about the money he spent to go hunting in Africa and think about how many poor could greatly benefit from what that same money could have bought. There are pastors in that same country who would like to have a bicycle to ride instead of walking to the three churches they pastor.

What examples for young people to follow who sacrifice by living extravagantly while asking their faculty and congregations to give up something. Sounds like the tables need to be turned over.

James 5:5, "You have lived luxuriously on the earth and led a life of wanton pleasure; you have fattened your hearts in a day of slaughter."

There has never been an era where seminary students have not had to suffer and make due.

 

[Ruiz]

PART I

In this most recent issue, some are assuming that Patterson MUST be right because he is a hero of the “Conservative Resurgence” instead of the low profile people of the Tarrant Baptist Association who have lived and worked credibly in ministry here in Fort Worth. But because they don’t have a national platform, I’ve seen you and other accuse them of beliefs and positions they do not hold.

I think I have been clear, Patterson is a man with weakness and walks with feet of clay. I believe it does more to argue against his viewpoint than against Paige. Only then can you convince people he is wrong. One of the rules and laws of logic is the fallacy of ad hominem. No one on this list has argued or even tried to argue that Patterson can do no wrong.

You protests about “bashing” are tantamount to saying “let’s forget everything he has done up to this time and then let’s take his side against these no-name people and make all sorts of false claims about them.”

Well sir, you are “bashing” people you admittedly know little to nothing about, regarding a situation you know little to nothing about, to people who know a fair amount about the situation. Don’t be surprised if someone calls you on it.

Three points on this line of thought. First, I never said let's forget everything, what I am saying and continue to say is that let's debate this specific issue on its own merit. I do not wish to engage in ad hominem attacks merely because it is a fallacy of logic.

The second point is one I addressed several times now and am beginning to believe it is being used as an attack. I said that other issues I knew very little about. This issue, according to what has been stated, I have said that in reviewing that information I stand with patterson. I never said that this situation I knew nothing about.

Finally, show me where I am bashing people. I take issues with their issues, but I do not think I am bashing anyone. I have not questioned anyone's motives. I have not attacked people. I have attacked issues.

It’s not a logical fallacy, but an issue of credibility.

Patterson’s credibility is not as iron-clad as you insist.

Okay, you can argue with over 3,000 years of studies and writing in logic, I probably will not convince you otherwise.

If you are pro-God and pro-scripture, you are pro-person.

Just because I didn’t mention it doesn’t mean that I was excluding anything.


Obviously not.

The modern church movement has centered it's focus on man. You see it in worship and in the ministries we conduct. Our culture has Saddleback Sam and others to focus on "people". I believe that is entirely anti-Christian. Rather, what it says about man in the BIble is not all that flattering to us. Our churches should be first and foremost people of God's Word. If a Church, being pro-people, violates God's Word, they are not pro-God. How can a church look at very clear texts of God's word and not clearly say it is wrong? Such a church is not pro-person but not reading their Bible. Being pro-God while looking out for people means preaching faithfully the entire counsel of God's Word, and living it. I would invite you to read a book entitled "Ashamed of the Gospel" by John MacArthur. A very good book.

Should I play your rhetorical game and say “It’s Christ’s church, not your church!?”

That is true, and that is why we should stand on God's Word and the Church should be God focused, not person focused. The greatest need of people in the Pew is faithful exposition of God's Word... not being "pro-people" or "seeker sensitive" or tip-toeing around areas we don't like.

Well I would agree, but Broadway is still working this out among the members of the congregation.

Working what out among the members? I am sorry, Are they teaching it is wrong and you need to repent but there are still people in the church who will not? I am unsure how they can "work this out" among the members. BTW, they have been working for quite some time on this mess. In fact, the Pastor stated about the homosexual issue when they left the state convention in the fall:

Asked Broadway’s position on homosexuality, Beasley said, “We are committed to welcoming all persons into our church, including the outcast, those on the margins of society and those who have not found that welcome in many other places, including, unfortunately, many churches.” (Dallas Morning News, January 14, 2011)

He does not sound like he is "working on it." In fact, I went everywhere to try to find where they were rethinking membership to homosexuals. No where! In fact, this statement of just a few months ago seems to indicate that they are welcoming everyone into our church" (emphasis mine). This is not welcoming people to your church, but into your church. And, this has been their practice for several years, nothing seems to be changing. Thus, can you show me where they are "working on this"? Rather, it seems it is a done deal. This answer to their stand on homosexuality, is not the Bible's stand and does not sound like they are working on anything.

As I understand the history of this situation, the two previous pastors of the congregation, as well as some of the members, encouraged homosexual men and women to visit the congregation and even become members. The congregation did not ask whether or not people who come forward to profess faith in Christ are homosexual or not (does your church?) and then these new believers became integrated in the life of the church. This happened for a number of years and the homosexual membership kept a very low profile (at least, in regard to their orientation). In recent years, that has changed and the recent church directory controversy took a number of members by surprise. Since that time there have been a number of people leave the congregation (including a pastor), but the matter is not yet resolved. Many church members are agonizing over what is the best way to handle the situation with grace and truth, others are promoting a gay liberation agenda, and others want to toss everyone out who embraces pro-homosexual leanings (although many of those people have left).

Yeah, another reason I am not a Southern Baptist, but I won't go into that tangent. The quote I provided from the current Pastor (who happened to Pastor one of the more liberal churches in the Memphis area prior to his arrival at Broadway) seems to indicate that this is a done deal and not something they are working on.

You need to know that the TBA spokesman, Al Meredith, is a great admirer of Spurgeon, knows all about the Downgrade Controversy, is extremely conservative, has (at least, up to this time) been a supporter of the “Conservative Resurgence”, and is a five-point Calvinist.

Yes, I know of Al Meredith. Again, my purpose was not to attack people on either side or dispute motives, but to argue the point. I am sure Meredith would argue well and probably offer much light to his conversation. To be honest, I would not doubt if Broadway left the association over this issue... but I could be wrong.

Actually, Broadway was not really a divisive topic in the BGCT (which is hardly left-leaning). There’s are two specific reasons why the BGCT did not fall to “Conservative Resurgence” voters and they are the legacy of J. Frank Norris and because Texas Baptists knew Paul Pressler (Houston) and Paige Patterson (Beaumont/Dallas) and did not find them particularly credible at the beginning of the “resurgence” political operation.

According to the Associated Baptist Press (a more liberal publication that has been very critical of conservatives:

The letter (from Broadway Baptist Church) cited "distracting complications we encountered in our attempt to participate in last year's annual meeting and the prospect of future unwanted and unneeded discord."

In other words, there was much discord.

They left because the BGCT is in bad shape because of poor leadership and people like Patterson and the Southern Baptist of Texas Convention like to use every opportunity to falsely accuse the BGCT.

That is not true, according to the Christian Century (a very liberal publication) it says:

Last September the church voted to discontinue its relationship with the BGCT, saying the church wants to carry on its ministries without being distracted by questions about its position on homosexuality.

The Christian Century is more in alignment with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, which is the convention Broadway is a member, than the SBC.

Having been involved in Texas Baptist life for 25 years in ministry, I think I know a little more about the situation than you. I know many of the players involved personally, and where more than a few skeletons are buried.


It’s God’s business to remove the blessing of the Holy Spirit, not mine.

I don't doubt you know more than I do about the situation. But you have offered me nothing to change my view. The "working on it" argument is rather ludicrous and one that I find very unconvincing. I know what it means to work on reformation in a church, and I have a hard time seeing how what has been said and quoted signifies "working on it."

 

[Ruiz]

What seminary or theological school teaches and requires its students to provide proof of the reproducing disciples they made before they get their diploma? How many require the same proof from their prospective professors before they hire them?

Obedience is the key not an intellectual defense by the disobedient. If they are not making disciples then they are disobedient to Jesus' command. It is a contradiction to stand for scripture and disobey its commands.

We must remember James 1:22. If men are not making disciples as Jesus commanded then they are deluded.

James 1:22, "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves"

When we look at the extravagance among a number of the leaders today who claim to stand for scripture how would you say they are Jesus' disciples according to Lk 14:33.

Lk. 14:33, "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple."

I have a hard time when I see disobedience among the same men who claim to stand for scripture. In contrast I am surrounded by men and women who live out scripture by making reproducing disciples and growing. It does not a theological school or church with a multi-million dollar budget to teach people how to do that. There are many college students who are making disciples. College students are not wealthy unless their parents own an oil well.

Can you tell me what point you are trying to make? I would post a response but I fail to see how this addresses the issues I brought up. I am not giving an intellectual answer, I am giving a very practical answer... and plus, I could offer you a seminary and churches who actually see fruit in people before they put them on staff. Yet, your statement seems so out there, I fail to see where it applies.

 

[Ruiz]

PART II

And they are having financial troubles because many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders don’t believe in leading their church to give sacrificially to the Cooperative Program. When I was growing up, my home church gave nearly 22% of undesignated receipts to the CP. Today, many “Conservative Resurgence” leaders are building mega-churches, funding media ministries and spending extravagantly on buildings, but they don’t/won’t support the CP with anything but a token amount to maintain the number of messenger seats for the Convention every year. That’s a very different attitude than back in the late 1960s and 1970s. There were significant problems in the SBC then, but people actually believed in the Convention. After all the years of politics, playing games, and downright meanness, not many people believe in the Convention enough to sacrificially support it -- even those who led the fight and fought in the trenches.

That’s where the SBC’s real problem is.

A couple of things. First, I am not a Southern Baptist so I am not a "die hard" Cooperative Program person. I see some serious flaws in that system, and I see some very good points about it as well. I know in my state, the BGAV (the liberal convention) has decreased the money sent to the CP while the conservative convention (SBCV) gives one of the highest percentages of any state convention (it used to be #1, I believe it still remains that way.) As well, they spend more money by percentage on church planting than any other convention. The Executive Committee on the SBC said of your more liberal state convention:

In recent years, the Baptist General Convention of Texas (BGCT) adopted giving plans for the Cooperative Program that have the effect of supporting the state convention but curtailing support for the SBC. Baptist to Baptist

Thus, you can be critical of bigger churches, but it is the state conventions that are the big culprit. There has always been CP givers and non-givers. The changes are the state conventions.

Something similar happened in the BGAV in Virginia which resulted in split in conventions and the forming of the SBCV.

The SBTC in Texas gives more than it keeps to the CP, I believe they are one of the few, if not the only one besides the SBCV.

I am not a fan of the SBC. Rather, I am proud of my church who gives a very high percentage of our money to missions, close to 30%. We give directly to the missionaries, we keep these missionaries accountable, and we love them because we know them. We don't have to deal with the politics of the SBC, we don't have to go to meetings and here the political maneuvering that I once heard as a Pastor. We are a church who loves God, gives a lot to missions, and preaches the Bible expositionally. Personally, I think more churches would be better off without the convention than with the convention... but that is from a guy who served as an SBC pastor... and am glad I am not there anymore.

 

[gb93433]

I could play devil's advocate and ask you to explain yourself, but I won't. But if you mean things like memorizing entire chapters of the Bible, handing in daily evangelistic encounters, reading at least 3 books per class, per semester, writing 15-25 page papers in each class, being tested for retention of knowledge, and a host of other issues, then yes, students ARE required to demonstrate some proficiency.

Pagans and non-believers can testify to at least that much work too. There are many non-Christians who keep learning, but ever come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus taught how to make disciples by His actions and no just what he said. He taught something much different than most of what we see today. Why do you think that 2/3 to 80% of the churches in America are plateaued or dying? Because they are making disciples. I am on my third church that was once dead and is now alive. All by teaching them to make disciples.

Not sure what you actually think happens at seminary, but you should at least visit one before jumping to conclusions. Ever diagram a sermon in Greek to prove that you are exegeting Scripture? How about one a day for an entire semester?

Discourse analysis is only a start.

Every grad of Southern (or Boyce, our undergrad program) is also required in their core curriculum to take several practicum classes, where they work with local pastors in local church settings. This is on top of the VERY rigorous education that they participate in. I dare say that a typical grad of SBTS will have the ability, at least, of diagnosing and dealing with a wide range of theological issues.

If you were to study what a true disciple of Jesus was, then you would not suggest such things. Dealing with theological issues on an intellectual level does not teach obedience. Teaching obedience is not just telling a person but showing them how its done.

I am on my third dead and dying church to turn it around. In every case I started with teaching the leaders how to make disciples. I start with the basics of teaching them to have a consistent devotional life. Following later, I teach them how to make disciples. Then they learn to reach people and make disciples while I am teaching them at the same time. I spend time with them praying with them and helping them through some of their tough times. I help them to answer the questions they have for me from those they are helping. No seminary classroom taught by someone who is not making disciples can teach that kind of practical ministry.

But that being said, and as one who was a pastor BEFORE I went to attend seminary, as well as after, there is no amount of training that can prepare a man for a ministry that God has not called him to do. It takes work, prayer, ministry, long (LONG) hours, and dedication that I don't see in most church members to stay the course of seminary and a pastorate.

Jesus trained his disciples to obey Him. He did not just teach them to do the things we call church. He did not give them a 30 min. sermon on Sunday, teach them on Wed. and Sunday School on Sunday and call that discipleship.

I am currently training men to make disciples. Not one who has graduated from Bible schools and some whose parents are pastors were making disciples when I met them. Everyone of them came thinking that making disciples was all about teaching a class and filling people with head knowledge. When they began to see others i was meeting with reach others and make disciples that is when they were humbled and some started seeking men to encourage.

"Emotion is no substitute for action.
Action is no substitute for production." Dawson Trotman

http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
and http://turret2.discipleshiplibrary.com/1A.mp3

The first young man I met with recently is the son of a pastor and he knew nothing about discipling men. He led a younger man to Christ and when the men began to wander he got frustrated and did not know what to do. I helped him to apply his knowledge on the young man by teaching him how to lead the person to grow. We have another young man who started meeting with a man I lead and told the man that is what he has been looking for all of his life. I have a two year plan of practical and theological training to build leaders who can lead others. These are laymen whom some have been to Bible school but moist have not. Some have never been to college. When I first came three months ago we had about 30 people in attendance and now we have about 46. Nine of those men will join me next week in the start of leadership training. It will last for two years. Each week they are to come prepared with the homework I give them. Some of that work will require 7-8 hours each week plus a time of 1.5 hours of discussion. When I asked the men their response "We need this."

In the almost three months since I have been at my current church (which nearly died one year ago with almost nobody left) we now have several generations of men and women who are making disciples. I started meeting with one man immediately. He has been meeting with men who are now meeting with men who are meeting with men. Before that it was just small groups with little purpose other than discussion and eating food.

If you would like to read a scholarly work on the subject I would suggest a book by one who both makes disciples and teaches it at the scholarly level around the world. The book is Following The Master by Michael Wilkins. Dr. Wilkins' website is http://www.talbot.edu/faculty/profile/michael_wilkins/

 

[gb93433]

I might suggest that it was the "moderates" in the Convention that actually killed people's attitudes toward it. It was rather self-serving back in the years you say it was doing very well -- but those years were also the beginning of the end of the Convention as it previously existed.

You do not see any conservatives attacking one another today?

I have met a number of conservatives today in the SBC who stand up loud claiming to believe the Bible yet their interpretation is so seriously flawed. How is that conservatism at its finest?

 

[glfredrick]

Pagans and non-believers can testify to at least that much work too. There are many non-Christians who keep learning, but ever come to a knowledge of the truth. Jesus taught how to make disciples by His actions and no just what he said. He taught something much different than most of what we see today. Why do you think that 2/3 to 80% of the churches in America are plateaued or dying? Because they are making disciples. I am on my third church that was once dead and is now alive. All by teaching them to make disciples.

Discourse analysis is only a start.

If you were to study what a true disciple of Jesus was, then you would not suggest such things. Dealing with theological issues on an intellectual level does not teach obedience. Teaching obedience is not just telling a person but showing them how its done.

I am on my third dead and dying church to turn it around. In every case I started with teaching the leaders how to make disciples. I start with the basics of teaching them to have a consistent devotional life. Following later, I teach them how to make disciples. Then they learn to reach people and make disciples while I am teaching them at the same time. I spend time with them praying with them and helping them through some of their tough times. I help them to answer the questions they have for me from those they are helping. No seminary classroom taught by someone who is not making disciples can teach that kind of practical ministry.

Jesus trained his disciples to obey Him. He did not just teach them to do the things we call church. He did not give them a 30 min. sermon on Sunday, teach them on Wed. and Sunday School on Sunday and call that discipleship.

I am currently training men to make disciples. Not one who has graduated from Bible schools and some whose parents are pastors were making disciples when I met them. Everyone of them came thinking that making disciples was all about teaching a class and filling people with head knowledge. When they began to see others i was meeting with reach others and make disciples that is when they were humbled and some started seeking men to encourage.

"Emotion is no substitute for action.
Action is no substitute for production." Dawson Trotman

http://www.bibleteacher.org/Dm118_8.htm
and http://turret2.discipleshiplibrary.com/1A.mp3

The first young man I met with recently is the son of a pastor and he knew nothing about discipling men. He led a younger man to Christ and when the men began to wander he got frustrated and did not know what to do. I helped him to apply his knowledge on the young man by teaching him how to lead the person to grow. We have another young man who started meeting with a man I lead and told the man that is what he has been looking for all of his life. I have a two year plan of practical and theological training to build leaders who can lead others. These are laymen whom some have been to Bible school but moist have not. Some have never been to college. When I first came three months ago we had about 30 people in attendance and now we have about 46. Nine of those men will join me next week in the start of leadership training. It will last for two years. Each week they are to come prepared with the homework I give them. Some of that work will require 7-8 hours each week plus a time of 1.5 hours of discussion. When I asked the men their response "We need this."

In the almost three months since I have been at my current church (which nearly died one year ago with almost nobody left) we now have several generations of men and women who are making disciples. I started meeting with one man immediately. He has been meeting with men who are now meeting with men who are meeting with men. Before that it was just small groups with little purpose other than discussion and eating food.

If you would like to read a scholarly work on the subject I would suggest a book by one who both makes disciples and teaches it at the scholarly level around the world. The book is Following The Master by Michael Wilkins. Dr. Wilkins' website is http://www.talbot.edu/faculty/profile/michael_wilkins/

Good for you...

I LOVE your presumptions on everyone else.

 

[glfredrick]

You do not see any conservatives attacking one another today?

I have met a number of conservatives today in the SBC who stand up loud claiming to believe the Bible yet their interpretation is so seriously flawed. How is that conservatism at its finest?

You used the term "at it finest" not I.

I see conservative churches growing and liberal churches in decline. I do not see "perfect Christians" in either.

 

[go2church]

Yea us, Baptists get a public black over a piece of property and more importantly the prayer of Jesus for unity, that we be one, is completely ignored. Way to go everyone I hope the rust and moths are comforting. Surely with all these smart people floating around this campus, someone could come up with a better idea then this! I guess not.

It just kills me that SW is evicting another Baptist group in order to build a hello, WELCOME center! Jesus must be so proud.

 

[Ruiz]

Yea us, Baptists get a public black over a piece of property and more importantly the prayer of Jesus for unity, that we be one, is completely ignored. Way to go everyone I hope the rust and moths are comforting. Surely with all these smart people floating around this campus, someone could come up with a better idea then this! I guess not.

It just kills me that SW is evicting another Baptist group in order to build a hello, WELCOME center! Jesus must be so proud.

Unity is important, but God's Word is more important. How can we walk together unless we agree? How can two people have extremely divergent doctrinal beliefs and continue together? Should I compromise a doctrinal belief that is listed in the Bible as an essential doctrine so I can call for "unity?"

In fact, there are times when someone must say, we cannot agree.

They may call themselves Baptists, but historically Baptists have held to the Innerancy, Sufficiency, Perspecuity, and Authority of Scripture. Unless someone would hold to these doctrines of the Bible, I do not think I can, will, nor should pretend there is unity. Pretending there is unity would be a lie, and that is a worse sin than merely saying, "We disagree, and we can respectfully go our separate way"

 

[gb93433]

There has never been an era where seminary students have not had to suffer and make due.

Some have parents who pay the entire bill. While others have come at great sacrifice.

 

[gb93433]

I LOVE your presumptions on everyone else.

What presumptions are you suggesting that are not in accordance with God's word?

 

[gb93433]

Yea us, Baptists get a public black over a piece of property and more importantly the prayer of Jesus for unity, that we be one, is completely ignored. Way to go everyone I hope the rust and moths are comforting. Surely with all these smart people floating around this campus, someone could come up with a better idea then this! I guess not.

The question should be "Are they wise?"

It just kills me that SW is evicting another Baptist group in order to build a hello, WELCOME center! Jesus must be so proud.

Wounded Minister, The: Healing from and Preventing Personal Attacks by Guy Greenfield writes:

I have observed that when a church is more concerned with its internal operations, with "maintenance" of the organization, than it is with ministry, it becomes vulnerable to attempts at internal political control of the organization. When a church is focused on taking care of itself, paying off its mortgage, paying its bills, and saving money, and shows little interest in outreach, evangelism, ministry, and missions, it is often headed for trouble.

 

[glfredrick]

What presumptions are you suggesting that are not in accordance with God's word?

I doubt that God's Word is telling you to presume on the studies of others, the means they use to pay for those studies, etc., especially in light of the fact that you must necessarily generalize, for you are not familiar with a case-by-case basis of all the people you talk about.

In essence, you've decided that it is your way or the highway. Sorry about that. The Christian world is a great big world and God uses all sorts of people in all types of scenarios to do His work, both in and out of seminary.