Cessationist

[Jarthur001]

The cessationist argument that, according to Scripture, tongues will cease got John MacArthur in hot water over the last few days.

Up front i'm a cessationist myself. Read some today with this in mid I came across Heb 1 with new light. I have never use Heb one to defend my views on cessationism, but I now feel I can.

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Look at these verse and think about this. God uses a Mediator when giving revelation. Hebrews is saying the Christ is the highest revelation and the highest Mediator.

Today within the charismatic movement, the goal is to have everyone to get revelation from Holy Spirit as if He is the Mediator. 1 Tim....For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So does others know of verses saying that..
Holy Spirit is mediator ?
Does Holy Spirit work with any thing other than written Word as far as revelation goes.?

You ideas on this please

 

[jbh28]

The cessationist argument that, according to Scripture, tongues will cease got John MacArthur in hot water over the last few days.

What happened with John MacArthur?

I too and a cessationist

 

[Jarthur001]

What happened with John MacArthur?

I too and a cessationist

He is being blasted my some for this...

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Sermons/GTY133_Theology-and-Ministry-An-Interview-with-John-MacArthur

Where he says things like this..

The charismatic movement is largely the reason the church is in the mess it's in today. In virtually every area where church life is unbiblical, you can attribute it to the charismatic movement. In virtually every area — bad theology, superficial worship, ego, prosperity gospel, personality elevation — all of that comes out of the charismatic movement.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh my. Jarthur and I agree. The end is near. :laugh:

 

[asterisktom]

The cessationist argument that, according to Scripture, tongues will cease got John MacArthur in hot water over the last few days.

Up front i'm a cessationist myself. Read some today with this in mid I came across Heb 1 with new light. I have never use Heb one to defend my views on cessationism, but I now feel I can.



Look at these verse and think about this. God uses a Mediator when giving revelation. Hebrews is saying the Christ is the highest revelation and the highest Mediator.

Today within the charismatic movement, the goal is to have everyone to get revelation from Holy Spirit as if He is the Mediator. 1 Tim....For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So does others know of verses saying that..
Holy Spirit is mediator ?
Does Holy Spirit work with any thing other than written Word as far as revelation goes.?

You ideas on this please

I would like to just comment on the first part of your post. Hebrews 1 was also one of the most convincing proofs for me for cessationism. But also, in more recent months, another passage has also come to mind, and that is 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The very passage that encourages some (like Grudem) to still hold for the continuity of special gifts teaches me otherwise. When the Perfect has come then - and only then - that which is in part will be done away with (EXARGEO - will be rendered ineffective).

But - and here was the clincher for me - those three "in part" things will be fully operational until the Perfect has come. There can not be a time when before the coming of the Perfect yet after the operation of those three "in parts." The grammar does not allow for this.

This was one of the proofs that led me to Preterism. The Perfect is Christ. He has come - the Parousia. To say that He has not come necessarily according to this passage is say that gifts are still continuing, those three gifts mentioned here - prophecies, tongues, knowledge.

To my thinking this passage, bolstered by the one you mentioned, Heb. 1:1-2, should logically lead one either to non-cessationism, like it did Grudem, or to Preterism, like it did for me. Futurism has had the ground taken from under it by these passages. There is no room for a future coming of the Perfect coupled with a cessation of those three "in parts".

 

[Jarthur001]

I would like to just comment on the first part of your post. Hebrews 1 was also one of the most convincing proofs for me for cessationism. But also, in more recent months, another passage has also come to mind, and that is 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The very passage that encourages some (like Grudem) to still hold for the continuity of special gifts teaches me otherwise. When the Perfect has come then - and only then - that which is in part will be done away with (EXARGEO - will be rendered ineffective).

But - and here was the clincher for me - those three "in part" things will be fully operational until the Perfect has come. There can not be a time when before the coming of the Perfect yet after the operation of those three "in parts." The grammar does not allow for this.

This was one of the proofs that led me to Preterism. The Perfect is Christ. He has come - the Parousia. To say that He has not come necessarily according to this passage is say that gifts are still continuing, those three gifts mentioned here - prophecies, tongues, knowledge.

To my thinking this passage, bolstered by the one you mentioned, Heb. 1:1-2, should logically lead one either to non-cessationism, like it did Grudem, or to Preterism, like it did for me. Futurism has had the ground taken from under it by these passages. There is no room for a future coming of the Perfect coupled with a cessation of those three "in parts".

Hello asterisktom, thanks for your input.

Is it Grudem ( I have read a few on this and forget who said what) that places so much weight on the word "Now"? Whoever it is, it all falls apart for me when you hit verses 13..

13and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these [is] love.

What do you think?

 

[asterisktom]

Hello asterisktom, thanks for your input.

Is it Grudem ( I have read a few on this and forget who said what) that places so much weight on the word "Now"? Whoever it is, it all falls apart for me when you hit verses 13..




What do you think?

I believe that Paul is equating the "now" with the time of the perfect, not with the time of those things that were fading away. I forget the term but there are times when both Christ and the other writers spoke of a future time but using the present tense.

This makes sense both contextually and logically as well, seeing that Paul is contrasting the time of the three "in part" gifts still operating (tongues, prophecy, knowledge - but GNOSIS as opposed to the EPIGNOSIS of verse 12). This same contrast is found within verse 8 - lasting love versus those transient gifts.

 

[R. Lawson]

I'll say upfront that I am a continuationist as Grudem is.

I'm almost 27 and have never spoken in "tongues," though.:type:

 

[Iconoclast]

I'll say upfront that I am a continuationist as Grudem is.

I'm almost 27 and have never spoken in "tongues," though.:type:

Grudem redefines essential terms,and is in error.he does not make his case.
That picture he has a of a person who"gets" revelation,[there is a picture of this in his systematic theology]but then puts it in his own words...so it is not really infallable is absurd. Be careful.

Jesus promised the apostles they would be guided into all truth.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

the apostles were uniquely given this promise;
1]teach them{the apostles} all things......
2] bring to their remembrance whatsoever I said to you.

26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Apostles were guided into ALL TRUTH.... No more apostles, no more truth.

12Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
We have all the revelation God is going to give us, we have all we need.

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The Apostles were foundational eph 2:20

oral roberts did not talk to a 900ft jesus,who told him to have his followers send in $144.00, in a lump sum or, 12 monthly installments, or he was going to kill him. Benny hinn,copeland ,tilton,parsley,price,dollar,duplantis,hagin,roberts,swaggert,baker,robertson,crouch,etc are shameless false teachers who will not know who the biblical Jesus is until they see Him on the White throne on the last day,unless they repent.
The scriptures are sufficient and each of these men,with their false dreams,words of "knowledge", silly rhyming noises, barking like dogs and all manner of filth will be exposed....
you want it, you can have it.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jhw_5ye8Qo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SgByE0pX1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9U_lWmAsYM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQiK_hMVC2k&feature=related

 

[Jarthur001]

I believe that Paul is equating the "now" with the time of the perfect, not with the time of those things that were fading away.

I agree, but continuationist say it is at the moment Paul waas speaking. And therefore they still exist. But this idea falls apart when you reach 13, because LOVE still exist.

now there doth remain

Which if Paul is contrasting the two times and it is clear that he is, this would not allow continuation. MacArthur argues against continuation based on church history.

 

[Jarthur001]

I'll say upfront that I am a continuationist as Grudem is.

I'm almost 27 and have never spoken in "tongues," though.:type:

Can you share what you base this on?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'll say upfront that I am a continuationist as Grudem is.

I'm almost 27 and have never spoken in "tongues," though.:type:

Im a continuist as is M L-J.

 

[drfuss]

The cessationist argument that, according to Scripture, tongues will cease got John MacArthur in hot water over the last few days.

Up front i'm a cessationist myself. Read some today with this in mid I came across Heb 1 with new light. I have never use Heb one to defend my views on cessationism, but I now feel I can.



Look at these verse and think about this. God uses a Mediator when giving revelation. Hebrews is saying the Christ is the highest revelation and the highest Mediator.

Today within the charismatic movement, the goal is to have everyone to get revelation from Holy Spirit as if He is the Mediator. 1 Tim....For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So does others know of verses saying that..
Holy Spirit is mediator ?
Does Holy Spirit work with any thing other than written Word as far as revelation goes.?

You ideas on this please

I think your comparison is not complete in that is does not include all types of continuationists.

For instance you say : "Today within the charismatic movement, the goal is to have everyone to get revelation from Holy Spirit as if He is the Mediator."

While this is true for some continuationists, it is not true for all. There are many continuationists who are not into the charistmatic movement as you describe it. There are many (not most) in Baptist churches that pray in tongues during private devotions (Private Prayer Language) who would not consider themselves Charistmatic as you describe it. Yet, they are usually considered as being continuationists.

The is like comparing Arminians to Hyper-Calvinist and grouping all Calvinists as being Hyper-Calvinists. Calvinists do not like to be included as a part of the Hyper-Calvinist group. Niether do many continuationists like to be included as a part of the Charismatic movement that you see on TV.

No debate intended here, just a clarafication.

 

[gb93433]

But also, in more recent months, another passage has also come to mind, and that is 1 Cor. 13:8-10.

The very passage that encourages some (like Grudem) to still hold for the continuity of special gifts teaches me otherwise. When the Perfect has come then - and only then - that which is in part will be done away with (EXARGEO - will be rendered ineffective).

But - and here was the clincher for me - those three "in part" things will be fully operational until the Perfect has come. There can not be a time when before the coming of the Perfect yet after the operation of those three "in parts." The grammar does not allow for this.

This was one of the proofs that led me to Preterism. The Perfect is Christ. He has come - the Parousia. To say that He has not come necessarily according to this passage is say that gifts are still continuing, those three gifts mentioned here - prophecies, tongues, knowledge.

I am not sure of your position but I assume you are a cessationist. The Parousia has not come yet. If you were to take the position that the partial will be (future tense) done away once the perfect comes and that the perfect has already come then what must follow is that the partial is already done away with. If you assume such theology then you must also believe that all is revealed at this time.

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Matt 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
1Cor 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Phil 1:26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.
Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
1The 2:19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
1The 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
1The 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1The 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2The 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
Jame 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
James 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2Pet 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
1Joh 2:28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

 

[asterisktom]

I am not sure of your position but I assume you are a cessationist. The Parousia has not come yet. If you were to take the position that the partial will be (future tense) done away once the perfect comes and that the perfect has already come then what must follow is that the partial is already done away with. If you assume such theology then you must also believe that all is revealed at this time.

Matt 24:3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Matt 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
Matt 24:39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
1Cor 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
Phil 1:26 so that your proud confidence in me may abound in Christ Jesus through my coming to you again.
Phil 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
1The 2:19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
1The 3:13 so that He may establish your hearts without blame in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.
1The 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1The 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2The 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
Jame 5:7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
James 5:8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
2Pet 1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
2Pet 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
1Joh 2:28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

Yes, I am a cessationist. I am also a Preterist. I believe that the Parousia has already happened - rather we are enjoying the ongoing benefits of the Parousia, Christ's presence. The Perfect has come. All those things spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 13 (and 15 too, for that matter) have happened.

 

[asterisktom]

I agree, but continuationist say it is at the moment Paul waas speaking. And therefore they still exist. But this idea falls apart when you reach 13, because LOVE still exist.

now there doth remain

Which if Paul is contrasting the two times and it is clear that he is, this would not allow continuation. MacArthur argues against continuation based on church history.

MacArthur has gone downhill quite a bit in my estimation this last year, but part of that is admittedly personal. He is the cause for my no longer being able to teach in my (former) church. The new pastor is a recent MS grad and is strongly supportive of Mac. Mac sees my position as heresy. Case closed.

I know that in many cases, when it comes to protecting his theology, JM is quite willing to go to church history, or the creeds, rather than scripture.

Getting back to this passage. Yes, there are only two time periods being compared here. That in itself goes against the commonly held futurist view, which demands an interim (pre-Perfect but post-gift) period:

Period 1 has (strictly according to this one passage):
Extraordinary sign gifts: tongues, prophecy, knowledge (gnosis)
Faith, hope, love.

Period 2 lacks:
Tongues
Prophecy
Gnosis knowledge

But period 2 has:
The Perfect (=the Presence)
Epignosis (the knowing even as we are known)
Faith, hope, love.

 

[Palatka51]

I feel that the mentioned perfect is the completed canon of scriptures. Now that we have it there is no need for further revelation outside of the volume of God's Word.
Psalm 40:7
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

The writer of Hebrews reaffirms this as establishing the second;

Hebrews 10:7-9
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Then John seals it;

Revelation 22:16-21
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[asterisktom]

I feel that the mentioned perfect is the completed canon of scriptures. Now that we have it there is no need for further revelation outside of the volume of God's Word.
Psalm 40:7
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

The writer of Hebrews reaffirms this as establishing the second;

Hebrews 10:7-9
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Then John seals it;

Revelation 22:16-21
16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

I used to believe this interpretation as well, having been taught it at school. But it doesn't really fit. To use the phrase "has come" is to imply that it is not here yet. However even at the time of Paul's writing there was the Word of God. It was not completed, but it was mostly - when you consider the whole Bible. If the Bible was intended then the verse should have been "when the perfect has completed coming", or "when the perfect has been completed."

Also, we don't need to go elsewhere, I believe, but can get clear indication of just what the Perfect is. Later Paul, writing of the time of the coming of the Perfect, says it will be "face to face", and "knowing as we are known". These two - especially the latter - do not fit the perfect being the Bible.

A more telling proof is the term used, TELEIOS. Nowhere in the Bible is the completed Bible described with this word or the related noun. But they are used to describe Christ Himself (Rev. 1:6), and the time of His Parousia (1 Pet. 4:7; 1 Cor. 1:8; Matt. 24:14).

 

[gb93433]

Yes, I am a cessationist. I am also a Preterist. I believe that the Parousia has already happened - rather we are enjoying the ongoing benefits of the Parousia, Christ's presence. The Perfect has come. All those things spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 13 (and 15 too, for that matter) have happened.

I do not believe that if you were to do a word search on the word parousia that you will find the word means presence. In every case in the gospels Jesus talked about when He comes again. I cannot think or ever found that parousia ever meant presence.

Where did you get the idea that parousia ever means presence?

The time Paul wrote 1 Cor was after Jesus came and rose.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

While this is true for some continuationists, it is not true for all. There are many continuationists who are not into the charistmatic movement as you describe it. There are many (not most) in Baptist churches that pray in tongues during private devotions (Private Prayer Language) who would not consider themselves Charistmatic as you describe it. Yet, they are usually considered as being continuationists.

The is like comparing Arminians to Hyper-Calvinist and grouping all Calvinists as being Hyper-Calvinists. Calvinists do not like to be included as a part of the Hyper-Calvinist group. Niether do many continuationists like to be included as a part of the Charismatic movement that you see on TV.

No debate intended here, just a clarafication.

Right you are my brother....everything should also be filtered through Scripture. I am a staunch Calvinist Baptist as well....unless someone starts a witch hunt for not understanding....Thanks Drfuss:thumbsup: